a plugin wouldn't be able to without the client being told to be making it able to...
On another note, it' s not hard at all to tell if someone is using it on an active lively server... It's REALLY obvious when you check someones mineshaft and it seems to go sporadically, and somehow they managed to get stacks of diamonds...
There are many easy ways already in place to counter the kind of people that use/abuse mods to give themselves an unfair advantage (like a ban?). If it is truly a very strict vanilla server, then use your brain to figure out when someone clearly isn't playing fair (stacks of diamonds, but not gold/redstone/iron/coal). There are indeed bukkit plugins to prevent interactive cheats (flying, for example) but your brain can weed out the nuisances using a strictly clientside style mod (xray, minimaps, whatever).
To that extent, there are even texturepacks that could be a psuedo (albeit week) form of xray, allowing them to find caves. There is no easy way to detect it. Should we then be proactive and remove the use of texturepacks? Yes, I know, I'm 'pushing it' with this statement.
My ultimate point is that people are going to cheat, and the only true method of getting to preventing it would be using something along the lines of punkbuster, or some custom application that effectively constantly sends screenshots to see for clientside visual aides, or yet some other form of application that further narrows down something like an aimbot for pvp enabled servers... That is going far above and beyond the call of anticheat when a simple ban will do... There are more than enough servers out there, including ones that are more than happy to be called "cheat friendly". And it's not like these are 'new' ideas in this game? Why all of the fuss now?
If you don't like cheating, don't cheat. You don't need to go on a rampage to force others to play the way you play, when clearly they want to play differently. As for servers enforcing specific types of gameplay (vanilla), use your damn brain and figure it out. Whitelist, plugins, logs, "watching them yourself"... Griefers have been a problem for a long time, and the fix for them is a permban... There's always a way to stop a problem without preventing those that aren't causing problems any further problems.
Meh... just some thoughts..
tl;dr - Let cheaters cheat, because they won't be stopped. To 'deal' with them, use your brain, ban'em, whitelist, whatever - Same concept as griefers.
actually, let me further my point... If it is truly vanilla (i.e. singleplayer with other people) then it should be entirely up to the users what they want to use, as long as the effect of what they're using doesn't affect other users' gameplay... like if a user wants to use flying to build a skybase, while some other user refuses to use flying... as long as the flying user doesn't bother the non-flying user, then what's the problem? Whining about how someone else plays?
As for competitively based servers... there's already a whole set of customizations around them that the entire point of weeding out mods (or conversely requiring them) is moot.
Meh, ****'s gonna happen, and reactions will take place to clean it up. being proactive about it will only cause more trouble on the other side of the fence.
2. That mod who closed all the other threads should get banned for being a bad "noob" mod.
I will eventually but now I can't. Don't update to 1.4_01. No server is required to use it because 1.4 server software is compatible with 1.4_01 client. Which means you don't need 1.4_01 to play on people's servers.
Quote from Noiwex »
g П :Warning! This player is using X-Ray to see through blocks!
No, thx. Also, this class seems to be useless...
This is a leftoever string design to throw people off when searching for it in the code. I forgot to remove it but it isn't used by anything. The realy string was an integer array of that got converted into characters. How about you test on a random server before you whine.
Quote from Crunkatog »
Maybe you should talk with the main developers of craftbukkit to see if they can implement some sort of very basic client file-integrity verification in the server software.
Sort of like when you go onto battle.net, ESO2, Steam, or any other server- it checks to make sure the player is using an unmodified, legit version of the vanilla game files. You could code a very rough radio button GUI permissions manager to allow mods for everyone, for OPS and admins, or for admins only. Set the default values as the most restrictive, so that just by installing craftbukkit the server admin has full protection without having to explicitly do anything.
Then nobody would have to be online to screen for "omg someone's cheatin'" in the chat window. You just store the info in server.properties and go. And even if a player hacked x-ray to remove the chat warning, his connection would be rejected because he was playing with a modded game file of any kind. A simple checksum test would be sufficient, at least for a while. You want to join this server? Play vanilla. You want to flyhack and have x-ray vision? Set up your own server and use the GUI to allow modded game files for yourself or whoever else you want.
This is really the best way to screen out the cheats. And you can still have a server where everyone could be using x-ray, flying, and teleports!
And if it's a core part of craftbukkit, anyone using bukkit on their server at all would have full protection right out of the box. From anything - whether it's this x-ray or zombe's flymod or some unknown who just hacks in private and doesn't share.
That seems like a good idea but there are problems when applying it. Every mod would have to be redone to work with this system. It's hard to keep a mod on a whitelist that constantly gets updated thus changing it's code. Furthermore, it would serve to kill the modding community.
Quote from lllminecraftlll »
Also, I don't understand how a plugin will be able to detect if a player is using x-ray. I'd be grateful if someone could explain.
Slowly but steadily, all SMP mods are being killed off by common server plugins. I use mods to help me build things, and help me find the materials to do it; the faster the better...
Also, I don't understand how a plugin will be able to detect if a player is using x-ray. I'd be grateful if someone could explain.
This x-ray mod has a bit that when you join a server, it makes you send an automatic chat to the admin log saying "warning: I'm using an xray mod". The server side plugin checks to see if the user who just joined has sent a chat containing the warning, or a part of the warning. Depending on the permissions set by the admin, the server then kicks the player with a message "x-ray not allowed here" or allows the player to continue.
It's not perfect but it is the minimum acceptable checkpoint. As the OP demonstrated, the new version does send a chat and admins (when present and not running the plugin) can still manually warn/kick/ban.
We all agree that the process should be:
-100% automated
-100% customizable by the admin
-Maintain player integrity even if the warning has been hacked away
@Scott: Yes, you can hack your client to falsely report file integrity. Most noobs who abuse x-ray on SMP do not know how to do this, and/or are too lazy to learn. So you could go download a hacked client elsewhere.
Guess what: a few bad apples will still get in and create havoc on your server. That's why you still look at server logs and watch people. Being admin should not become a full time job. But the occasional spot check and relying on community spirit to identify and report hacks is part of running a successful server. The few idiots who still run hacked clients on your server will get caught out the usual way - greed, aggression, intrusion, suspicious activity, scarring the landscape with erratic tunnels and blanket-mining surface resources.
If despite all your software security checks and personal vigilance, a guy is using X-ray, and is NOT engaging in intrusive, aggressive, suspicious behaviour and is NOT categorically denying others access to resources - maybe he has a few more diamonds or a few more red mushrooms than the next guy - or has avoided digging down into lava more often than the next guy - ask yourself, how big of a problem is that?
Then the question becomes one of disclosure. You have to be the judge of whether your server community can handle the fact that one or two people have the potential for a significant advantage. Know your players. Can they handle using X-ray responsibly themselves? If not, then the majority rule is in effect. "If you didn't bring enough gum for everyone on the server, you can't chew it."
Probably only the more mature, smaller servers could handle permitting one of their own to use x-ray mod, to the exclusion of others. These are the kinds of servers that tend to OP everyone anyway and operate on a lot of trust, so go figure.
I use x-ray mod on our LAN which also lets you /give yourself anything you need. There's definitely useful things to do with x-ray mod that you can't /give yourself. Diagnosing mob trap malfunctions, not getting lost in caverns, surveying a site for lava or water before excavating, even just checking the time of day without having to stand still and "i" are all things that you can do only with X-ray. I also use it and flymod in SSP when I make custom worlds - it's of inestimable value in determining how changes in terrain parameters affect entity spawning and whether the resulting world will be suitable for its intended purpose.
At the end of the day it's just a very useful tool that also happens to have a high potential for abuse by people who are of the temperament and character to abuse it. Like narcotics. (Except without the grave IRL social consequences of narcotic dependency. Let me make that clear - they are not the same order of magnitude.)
^^^^ No, this new xray does not send a chat message warning anymore. It is still detected by my plugin because it sends a secret message to the server plugin. There is no way to detect x-ray on the client side without the x-ray sending something because x-ray only alters rendering.
Obviously, this is worse off for server admins because they are forced to use a plugin. A chat message should've sufficed; it was much more effective. If the mods are unhappy with this then they will have to remove fly mod too because the same goes with nocheat plugin.
g П :Warning! This player is using X-Ray to see through blocks!
No, thx. Also, this class seems to be useless...
Quote from newbymodder »
This is a leftoever string design to throw people off when searching for it in the code. I forgot to remove it but it isn't used by anything. The realy string was an integer array of that got converted into characters. How about you test on a random server before you whine.
Yes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the moderators realize what they are doing. Right now they have a choice: either remove both xray and fly mod right now because they aren't following the default off model or switch back to chat message only.
You must have the old version because I changed it to an integer array. Before it was a character array with numbers but the compiled optimized it to full letters.
Yes, but that would defeat the purpose of having the moderators realize what they are doing. Right now they have a choice: either remove both xray and fly mod right now because they aren't following the default off model or switch back to chat message only.
Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, it seems like you're seeing this as a battle of wits between yourself and the moderators here.
You're only being asked to introduce a way for admins to be aware of x-ray use and not have to go to extra trouble to disable it. The alternative is that you are not allowed to disseminate x-ray here. It's a new rule, but it's a rule. And I happen to think it's a good one. I don't see a double standard as the rule is written, in fact it seems pretty clear both in material and intent.
Whatever zombe is doing with his modpack, is irrelevant to whether you meet the minimal acceptable standard of anti-cheat measures for your mod. That's his affair. I am not sure what the barometer is for moderators to consider a modpack "problematic" or "abusive", perhaps admins have an easier time detecting players flying through the atmosphere than they do players moving at normal speeds on the ground (but gathering more diamonds). And therefore do not cry so much about the flymod because it's easier to detect and ban.
I'm sure public opinion of a modpack has a lot to do with whether moderators take action. Perhaps if pine and birch wood were intentionally extremely rare and dangerous to obtain and were physically superior to regular wood, VarietalSaplings for SMP would also get the lock. Think how having regrowing birches would affect the exotic hardwoods economy of the average server.
Ah screw all the arguments its plain and simple if servers dont want people using x-ray or flying or any other mod of this type they should get off there lazy ass and get a the plugin or take the precautions to prevent the mods from working on there server the default off idea is ridiculous as you make more people have to do something ( turn mod off for online and back on for offline) then simply have a admin of a server install a simple plugin.
No, I am only confused about what they want. It is relevant to this mod because we are discussing if it pertains to the rules. If there is an exception that allows fly mod to be DEFAULT ON which is against the rules then I want the same for my mod. It's only fair.
You can make the point that fly mod is easy to detect, but x-ray IS IMPOSSIBLE to detect. The only real way to detect it it to count how many diamonds people are getting and some server admin brains. Therefore we lead back to this dicussion viewtopic.php?f=1032&t=262809&start=30#p3714035 If moderators want to lessen the damage inflicted to servers then they must not cripple it to DEFAULT OFF because that would force anyone looking for this one to use the IMPOSSIBLE to detect version.
@Rodon: I'll get back to you once MCP 1.4_01 comes out.
I would not be forced to use anything. I could ask the admin permission, and then if he wants to, he must also install a piece of code and set the option to allow.
It's a choice. Either you and the admin both choose together to voluntarily allow this mod to be used as intended, or you choose not to install and use it.
Nobody is forcing you to do or download or use anything.
edit: I suppose this supports that part of your argument that says "x-ray with permissions is better than totally silent x-ray". Those hacks will still exist. I would rather use x-ray with the blessing to do so than sneak. Other people not so picky. This is why the ultimate answer will probably lie in file integrity verification, and that will suck when it does arrive, because a wide variety of useful mods will be flushed down the john.
IMO you should write this mod as a bukkit plugin with built-in permissions. One that overrides hacked client x-ray mods so that even if they press x, if they aren't on the whitelist they see nothing.
Newby Modder, I just wanted to say I have supported you in your fight to host your mods here since the "hack" stuff started. I Did you get my PM? Just wondering. I could use this for so much in SSP. I don't play much online. Lol. Sorry you've had to have such a fight to get to this point, hopefully everything gets better from here.
Post Scriptum ~ This is not a hack, it's a mod. A modification to the texture rendering. Thus, not a hack, a mod.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
So, I hear you like Minecraft? Well, good. Otherwise you might find some block like chunks missing from your base, I MEAN HOME, tonight.
I would not be forced to use anything. I could ask the admin permission, and then if he wants to, he must also install a piece of code and set the option to allow.
It's a choice. Either you and the admin both choose together to voluntarily allow this mod to be used as intended, or you choose not to install and use it. ... I suppose this supports that part of your argument that says "x-ray with permissions is better than totally silent x-ray". Those hacks will still exist. I would rather use x-ray with the blessing to do so than sneak. Other people not so picky. This is why the ultimate answer will probably lie in file integrity verification, and that will suck when it does arrive, because a wide variety of useful mods will be flushed down the john.
IMO you should write this mod as a bukkit plugin with built-in permissions. One that overrides hacked client x-ray mods so that even if they press x, if they aren't on the whitelist they see nothing.
What I meant was that those people who are dissatisfied with having to ask an admin (which is practically everyone) to use the mod then they will just find another source. Asking an admin if they can install a plugin just so they can use xray (they would also need bukkit) is too much trouble.
@Rodon thanks for informing me
@calicoyoda Please understand that I get many PMs and I try to answer all of them but I get like 50 a day. This xray should work fine for SSP.
On another note, it' s not hard at all to tell if someone is using it on an active lively server... It's REALLY obvious when you check someones mineshaft and it seems to go sporadically, and somehow they managed to get stacks of diamonds...
There are many easy ways already in place to counter the kind of people that use/abuse mods to give themselves an unfair advantage (like a ban?). If it is truly a very strict vanilla server, then use your brain to figure out when someone clearly isn't playing fair (stacks of diamonds, but not gold/redstone/iron/coal). There are indeed bukkit plugins to prevent interactive cheats (flying, for example) but your brain can weed out the nuisances using a strictly clientside style mod (xray, minimaps, whatever).
To that extent, there are even texturepacks that could be a psuedo (albeit week) form of xray, allowing them to find caves. There is no easy way to detect it. Should we then be proactive and remove the use of texturepacks? Yes, I know, I'm 'pushing it' with this statement.
My ultimate point is that people are going to cheat, and the only true method of getting to preventing it would be using something along the lines of punkbuster, or some custom application that effectively constantly sends screenshots to see for clientside visual aides, or yet some other form of application that further narrows down something like an aimbot for pvp enabled servers... That is going far above and beyond the call of anticheat when a simple ban will do... There are more than enough servers out there, including ones that are more than happy to be called "cheat friendly". And it's not like these are 'new' ideas in this game? Why all of the fuss now?
If you don't like cheating, don't cheat. You don't need to go on a rampage to force others to play the way you play, when clearly they want to play differently. As for servers enforcing specific types of gameplay (vanilla), use your damn brain and figure it out. Whitelist, plugins, logs, "watching them yourself"... Griefers have been a problem for a long time, and the fix for them is a permban... There's always a way to stop a problem without preventing those that aren't causing problems any further problems.
Meh... just some thoughts..
tl;dr - Let cheaters cheat, because they won't be stopped. To 'deal' with them, use your brain, ban'em, whitelist, whatever - Same concept as griefers.
As for competitively based servers... there's already a whole set of customizations around them that the entire point of weeding out mods (or conversely requiring them) is moot.
Meh, ****'s gonna happen, and reactions will take place to clean it up. being proactive about it will only cause more trouble on the other side of the fence.
I will eventually but now I can't. Don't update to 1.4_01. No server is required to use it because 1.4 server software is compatible with 1.4_01 client. Which means you don't need 1.4_01 to play on people's servers.
This is a leftoever string design to throw people off when searching for it in the code. I forgot to remove it but it isn't used by anything. The realy string was an integer array of that got converted into characters. How about you test on a random server before you whine.
That seems like a good idea but there are problems when applying it. Every mod would have to be redone to work with this system. It's hard to keep a mod on a whitelist that constantly gets updated thus changing it's code. Furthermore, it would serve to kill the modding community.
I said it detects my xray. Not all xrays.
This x-ray mod has a bit that when you join a server, it makes you send an automatic chat to the admin log saying "warning: I'm using an xray mod". The server side plugin checks to see if the user who just joined has sent a chat containing the warning, or a part of the warning. Depending on the permissions set by the admin, the server then kicks the player with a message "x-ray not allowed here" or allows the player to continue.
It's not perfect but it is the minimum acceptable checkpoint. As the OP demonstrated, the new version does send a chat and admins (when present and not running the plugin) can still manually warn/kick/ban.
We all agree that the process should be:
-100% automated
-100% customizable by the admin
-Maintain player integrity even if the warning has been hacked away
@Scott: Yes, you can hack your client to falsely report file integrity. Most noobs who abuse x-ray on SMP do not know how to do this, and/or are too lazy to learn. So you could go download a hacked client elsewhere.
Guess what: a few bad apples will still get in and create havoc on your server. That's why you still look at server logs and watch people. Being admin should not become a full time job. But the occasional spot check and relying on community spirit to identify and report hacks is part of running a successful server. The few idiots who still run hacked clients on your server will get caught out the usual way - greed, aggression, intrusion, suspicious activity, scarring the landscape with erratic tunnels and blanket-mining surface resources.
If despite all your software security checks and personal vigilance, a guy is using X-ray, and is NOT engaging in intrusive, aggressive, suspicious behaviour and is NOT categorically denying others access to resources - maybe he has a few more diamonds or a few more red mushrooms than the next guy - or has avoided digging down into lava more often than the next guy - ask yourself, how big of a problem is that?
Then the question becomes one of disclosure. You have to be the judge of whether your server community can handle the fact that one or two people have the potential for a significant advantage. Know your players. Can they handle using X-ray responsibly themselves? If not, then the majority rule is in effect. "If you didn't bring enough gum for everyone on the server, you can't chew it."
Probably only the more mature, smaller servers could handle permitting one of their own to use x-ray mod, to the exclusion of others. These are the kinds of servers that tend to OP everyone anyway and operate on a lot of trust, so go figure.
I use x-ray mod on our LAN which also lets you /give yourself anything you need. There's definitely useful things to do with x-ray mod that you can't /give yourself. Diagnosing mob trap malfunctions, not getting lost in caverns, surveying a site for lava or water before excavating, even just checking the time of day without having to stand still and "i" are all things that you can do only with X-ray. I also use it and flymod in SSP when I make custom worlds - it's of inestimable value in determining how changes in terrain parameters affect entity spawning and whether the resulting world will be suitable for its intended purpose.
At the end of the day it's just a very useful tool that also happens to have a high potential for abuse by people who are of the temperament and character to abuse it. Like narcotics. (Except without the grave IRL social consequences of narcotic dependency. Let me make that clear - they are not the same order of magnitude.)
Obviously, this is worse off for server admins because they are forced to use a plugin. A chat message should've sufficed; it was much more effective. If the mods are unhappy with this then they will have to remove fly mod too because the same goes with nocheat plugin.
public boolean renderFix(Minecraft game) {
char[] m = { 'W', 'a', 'r', 'n', 'i', 'n', 'g', '!', ' ', 'T', 'h', 'i', 's', ' ', 'p', 'l', 'a', 'y', 'e', 'r', ' ', 'i', 's', ' ', 'u', 's', 'i', 'n', 'g', ' ', 'X', '-', 'R', 'a', 'y', ' ', 't', 'o', ' ', 's', 'e', 'e', ' ', 't', 'h', 'r', 'o', 'u', 'g', 'h', ' ', 'b', 'l', 'o', 'c', 'k', 's', '!' };
String s = "";
for (char n : m) s = new StringBuilder().append(s).append(n).toString();
if (game.k())
{
game.g.a(s);
return true;
}
return false;
}
Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, it seems like you're seeing this as a battle of wits between yourself and the moderators here.
You're only being asked to introduce a way for admins to be aware of x-ray use and not have to go to extra trouble to disable it. The alternative is that you are not allowed to disseminate x-ray here. It's a new rule, but it's a rule. And I happen to think it's a good one. I don't see a double standard as the rule is written, in fact it seems pretty clear both in material and intent.
Whatever zombe is doing with his modpack, is irrelevant to whether you meet the minimal acceptable standard of anti-cheat measures for your mod. That's his affair. I am not sure what the barometer is for moderators to consider a modpack "problematic" or "abusive", perhaps admins have an easier time detecting players flying through the atmosphere than they do players moving at normal speeds on the ground (but gathering more diamonds). And therefore do not cry so much about the flymod because it's easier to detect and ban.
I'm sure public opinion of a modpack has a lot to do with whether moderators take action. Perhaps if pine and birch wood were intentionally extremely rare and dangerous to obtain and were physically superior to regular wood, VarietalSaplings for SMP would also get the lock. Think how having regrowing birches would affect the exotic hardwoods economy of the average server.
Again, apples to oranges.
Btw hows the updating to 1.4_01 going newb?
You can make the point that fly mod is easy to detect, but x-ray IS IMPOSSIBLE to detect. The only real way to detect it it to count how many diamonds people are getting and some server admin brains. Therefore we lead back to this dicussion viewtopic.php?f=1032&t=262809&start=30#p3714035 If moderators want to lessen the damage inflicted to servers then they must not cripple it to DEFAULT OFF because that would force anyone looking for this one to use the IMPOSSIBLE to detect version.
@Rodon: I'll get back to you once MCP 1.4_01 comes out.
Right forgot they haven't upgraded yet. :tongue.gif:
It's a choice. Either you and the admin both choose together to voluntarily allow this mod to be used as intended, or you choose not to install and use it.
Nobody is forcing you to do or download or use anything.
edit: I suppose this supports that part of your argument that says "x-ray with permissions is better than totally silent x-ray". Those hacks will still exist. I would rather use x-ray with the blessing to do so than sneak. Other people not so picky. This is why the ultimate answer will probably lie in file integrity verification, and that will suck when it does arrive, because a wide variety of useful mods will be flushed down the john.
IMO you should write this mod as a bukkit plugin with built-in permissions. One that overrides hacked client x-ray mods so that even if they press x, if they aren't on the whitelist they see nothing.
MCP 1.4_01 is out now
LINK
Post Scriptum ~ This is not a hack, it's a mod. A modification to the texture rendering. Thus, not a hack, a mod.
What I meant was that those people who are dissatisfied with having to ask an admin (which is practically everyone) to use the mod then they will just find another source. Asking an admin if they can install a plugin just so they can use xray (they would also need bukkit) is too much trouble.
@Rodon thanks for informing me
@calicoyoda Please understand that I get many PMs and I try to answer all of them but I get like 50 a day. This xray should work fine for SSP.