This really should be in a PM to bnm not here on the thread. this is a personal squabble between the two of you, no need to bring it up in front of everyone like this.
This really should be in a PM to bnm not here on the thread. this is a personal squabble between the two of you, no need to bring it up in front of everyone like this.
Alrighty appollo, i didnt want to bring this to the thread so he did so i thought it would be appropriate, but i understand where you are coming from.
/end disscussion
This really should be in a PM to bnm not here on the thread. this is a personal squabble between the two of you, no need to bring it up in front of everyone like this.
Bnm should have asked Chief in a PM first, it's not his fault that bnm posted that here.
@Chief also, does this mean you're angry at me for asking for beta? D:
Bnm should have asked Chief in a PM first, it's not his fault that bnm posted that here.
@Chief also, does this mean you're angry at me for asking for beta? D:
No what i was flustered by is the constant pestering of "Whens the map going to be out" and all that in repeated instances. I think if someone is pressuring me to do finish my map quicker id prefer not to listen to them. So no infaderp im not mad at you, because you asked one meer time when i was looking for beta-testers so im quite alright with that. And i personally dont believe im being irrational i just would prefer not to be rushed. I hope people understnad that im not a ****, as bnm has somewhat portrayed me as, i just get annoyed when im rushed to do something
<3 Chiefwiggy
Community Question:
When should the player reach the victory monument? Or does it really matter? The monument has always been a hub and a home for the player on their adventure (important early game, decreases travel time) and also a vital part to completing the map (obviously, but the vm in the end game goal). In recent maps we've had the monument at I1 and up to I3 (can't think of any I4 or I5, might be derpin').
UT3 - After I1
IM - After I3
TGP - I1
So what do you think? And when will you be putting the monument in your next map?
so how does this look guys? i want an honest opinion as i'm a little unsure about how i'm going about this area.
keep in mind this is very WIP right now
I personally like all of it, except for the top part of it, it just too me could use some iron bars up top as well, in addition to that i notice that there are vines on the left-hand side of the picture but no where else, so maybe adding some symmetry with the vines. but it looks cool Appolo
Community Question:
When should the player reach the victory monument? Or does it really matter? The monument has always been a hub and a home for the player on their adventure (important early game, decreases travel time) and also a vital part to completing the map (obviously, but the vm in the end game goal). In recent maps we've had the monument at I1 and up to I3 (can't think of any I4 or I5, might be derpin').
UT3 - After I1
IM - After I3
TGP - I1
So what do you think? And when will you be putting the monument in your next map?
I personally like putting intersection 2 off of an area in intersection 2. Not a direct are to the monument but a path in one of the i2 areas that leads to the monument, but doesn't lead to i3. In inspired Gallery i put my monument right off of one of my i2 areas, but if you continued forth in the area you'd also notice the path to i3. So thats just my opinion
I was thinking of whether to post a map download along with the picture. This could be the new skyblock!
Oh noes! I deleted it! meh, oh well, I'll just make a new one.
In Disarray it's right before I1. I prefer having an early monument because I like to see it grow from white onwards, instead of having to keep wool in a regular chest until I get to it. But I've played maps where it's in I2 (Skyward Ascent) or I3 (Dreadsky Isles) and was fine with it. I think it was a bit too obscure to find in Legendary, though, so I would have preferred it earlier in that map.
Because Vechs is totally gonna fix a map he made over a year ago XD
Pffffffft! Frighten the player?! If I was trying to scare the player, I'd just use Jeffery. Yes, Jeff, you all know who I'm talkin' about! That would frighten the player (and slice a few hours off their sleep)! Anyways, back to CTM...
OMG MEDIA FIRE WON'T UPLOAD THE BEST MAP EVAR AND I DON"T KNOW WHYA?!!!111!1111!
So, for anyone who's used Media Fire before, It just stops at 0%, for no apparent reason. So now I can't upload the best CTM map ever made. T-T
So, i was reading a few pages back and i saw the disscussion on what makes a CTM map a uCTM (Unique CTM) and I got to thinking, my 3rd map uses a new concept that could be percieved as a uCTM but id like to get everyone's opinions before assuming that its a uCTM.
So what i have done is for Inspired Gallery there are 5 of each wool you must collect for the monument in 5 different fleecy boxes, each appropriatly labeled with which wool number it is. For example, in one fleecy box in an area you could find Wool #3/5 and in a different one, still in the same area contains White Wool 4/5. So there are a total of 80 wools and 7 metal blocks/special blocks. I wanted to know if this would classify as a uCTM or a CTM. By the way, dont complain or critisize the idea itself because the map is already finished an im sure as *heck* not changing it.
<3 Chiefwiggy
inb4 everyone questions the balance- trust me, it's balanced.
<3 Really Yay, i wasnt expecting it to be super balanced jsut because of the way i make maps <3 but thanks, By the way infamy would you mind giving me your thoughts on the areas on skype <3
I actually tried to be humorous but I tripped, fell down the stairs into the basement with grues sucking my blood, but a wizard appeared and saved me only to make me his enslave my mind to write that post.
Being able to do everything you want to do is bad for strategy. Adventure maps that don't allow you to break blocks should require more strategy than any map where you can do anything you want. But they are being executed poorly, most adventure maps are just a slashing fest with no strategy, but that's where you guys misjudge a whole genre. When you have only one option to solve something, it turns into a puzzle game. When there's many options it turns into a tactical game. When you are allowed to box yourself in and attack a bosses' feets, it turns into what you like, not really strategy, just sandbox. There needs to be a balance between liberty and linearity. When combined they will make a fine strategy game.
Most CTM's right now are like a game of chess where any piece can defeat another piece by just being next to them. Chess has different attack conditions for each piece. You can use the pawn to attack diagonally front, you can use the horse to attack in a T pattern, you can use the tower to attack directly front, etc... But even with these attack limitations, you have multiple pieces and space to work with, giving you a fine strategy game.
Let's apply it in Minecraft:
Wall of text incoming.
Most adventure maps tend to make combat very straight forward, only two options, hit or shoot with no strategy. Let's start with your limitations: You have mining fatigue 5 and no blocks, there's a slow mob with weakness IV and negative jumpboos that splashes potions only on the ground level, but you provide an environment with elevated ground. Of course you could just jump and hit, but you will fall to the potion, if the potion isn't that much of a trouble, the puzzlemaker could always make it more punishing.
You can go to that elevated ground or shoot him, however you will soon notice he has high knockback resistance and some sort projectile protection (Not really noticeable, but the map maker can do it possible for the player to notice, like how Orange did with colored armor in ED3). You can go to the elevated ground, but that's just in range from a sniper, you could snipe him to death, but you notice that he is on a pressure plate connected to a cage's gate that's full of angry monkeys. If you did kill him, the monkeys with really high jump boost and speed will prevent you from staying in the elevated ground.
Let's take compare the limitations to chess. You are either the king or the queen, you can attack and move to all directions like the king, or you can shoot a long distance and teleport to all directions like the queen. Let's say that you don't have Enderpearls, and the queen is disabled because of the ProjProt and KnockRes. The slow mob will be a pawn, he will move directly towards you but he can only attack to the ground and can't melee you. The sniper will be the tower, since it will only attack when you are in range of the elevated ground, it will only attack a certain direction with range. The monkeys will be the horses (Not the mob, the chess piece), they have a better than average range simulated by the speed and they can jump blocks, similar how horses can jump other pieces. Let's say the monkeys are melee skeletons, so they circle around to simulate their tricky T movement pattern.
That's your limitations, now let's look at your options. Let's say there's a chandeliers on top, you can shoot them to make them fall. Unfortunately they are in the range of another tower. However you can use it to give you as a pawn obstruction, so you can pillar dance on it like in any roguelike game. Now that you have thinking time, you can develop your strategy. You see that the pressure plates below the towers are wooden, and realize that any drop or arrow will trigger them. But you aren't in an angle where you can activate the pressure plate. You see dispensers vertically parallel to the pressure plates, with a wooden button. But you see that it is also wired up to a less intimidating cage of horses. Then you see a ladder next to a button that could take you to the tower's sniping spots. Then you see a really easy scramble square puzzle (Those 3x3 square grids that you have to match to make an image) made with buttons wired up to a gate that could potentially cover the cage if dropped down.
In conclusion, you have 5 options:
+You could activate the dispensers and combat the weaker horses, shoot the towers, go into elevated ground, and kill the pawn.
+You could shoot the ladder, take shots, drop items into the tower's presure plate, kill the tower, go to elevated ground and kill the pawn.
+You could use the chandelier for thinking time, finish the puzzle, kill the tower, got to elevated ground and kill the pawn.
+You could test your luck/skill and take on the pawn if you have noticed his attack patterns to skillfully kill him.
+You could kill the tower, and test your luck/skill and take on the monkeys, if you know their attack patterns to skillfully kill them, then kill the pawn.
Now, you may be asking why did I just type this wall of text, well first let's do this without limitations. You don't have mining fatigue and you have blocks. You make yourself an elevated ground not in range of the skelleton and kill both the pawn and the skellie. You make a crybox and kill da feetz. Strategy...
If you don't get my point, what I mean is that strategy comes from a mixture of limitations and options, sandbox comes from options, and puzzles from limitations.
Look at stealth games like mark of the ninja. Stealth should always be a different take on puzzle games. You are giving limited options, these are the environment and your equipment. But you also have your limitations, if you want an undetected run, you will require to think some strategy. But are most stealth games labeled as puzzle games? No, only Gunpoint, because the developers want to make it known what stealth is supposed to be. So if this is applied to a CTM with mining fatigue, it still has the depth and structure of a CTM map, and frankly, it can make combat more interesting if used on different situations. Just like Mark of the Ninja, the developers don't label it as a puzzle game, so your CTM won't be labeled as a puzzle game unless you want it to, like Gunpoint.
On the second part:
I think most of you are misunderstanding my reason for that post. Vechs is making a map with mining fatigue 5, and labeling as CTM, and I said the freedom part of the CTM conditions is now obsolete. And thanks to everyone that explained that uCTM thing, they seem like my way to go.
Community Question:
When should the player reach the victory monument? Or does it really matter? The monument has always been a hub and a home for the player on their adventure (important early game, decreases travel time) and also a vital part to completing the map (obviously, but the vm in the end game goal). In recent maps we've had the monument at I1 and up to I3 (can't think of any I4 or I5, might be derpin').
UT3 - After I1
IM - After I3
TGP - I1
So what do you think? And when will you be putting the monument in your next map?
Right from the get-go. After introduction cinematic.
1. We all use cryboxes and elevated platforms.
2. CTM maps require no strategy.
3. Vechs is the ultimate one and only definer of CTM definitions (which makes this argument pointless unless you're some sort of disciple or something)
4. 2 neat games define all of the genres they are in.
1. We all use cryboxes and elevated platforms.
2. CTM maps require no strategy.
3. Vechs is the ultimate one and only definer of CTM definitions (which makes this argument pointless unless you're some sort of disciple or something)
4. 2 neat games define all of the genres they are in.
In conclusion, stop.
What's your problem? Seriously, I won't even use excuses to cover my late post. You keep babysitting me every time I post something even if it's not directed to you, I thought this thread was supposed to be a discussion thread or something, but right after people talk about the genre labeling and such. You don't bash em, you reply to me.
To 1:
Yea, how's that good?
To 2:
Did you even read Virthue's post? He basically implied that not breaking blocks removes strategy, and I replied to that specific part of the post in the first part. The second part is about how he defines CTM's.
To 3:
I don't even play super hostile that much, I have only completed 3 of SH maps in one run, never replayed them TBH. I just watched his test world video and I heard something fishy, that's why I am here.
To 4:
Oh look, I forgot to list my source of experience of all the tactical RPGS, real time strategy games, puzzle games, stealth games, board games etc.. That I have played! People will think I don't know about tactical games so I will just put chess, MOTN, and Gunpoint to cover myah! Obviously not. I could give you my whole repertoire of strategy games but I won't, don't pick on the lack of hundreds of examples.
And I would never say a genre doesn't have strategy potential. As long as it has a strategic balance between options and limitations, it's strategic.
@Haxor You know, everytime I see you here, you seem to be starting up arguments. This is what ive seen, dont judge pls. And pls stop with the hostilities. We dont need it.
Edit: Got ninja'd (if thats the correct use of the term :P) by hybran
This really should be in a PM to bnm not here on the thread. this is a personal squabble between the two of you, no need to bring it up in front of everyone like this.
/end disscussion
so how does this look guys? i want an honest opinion as i'm a little unsure about how i'm going about this area.
keep in mind this is very WIP right now
Bnm should have asked Chief in a PM first, it's not his fault that bnm posted that here.
@Chief also, does this mean you're angry at me for asking for beta? D:
[YOUR AD HERE FOR JUST $69.69]
Looks good, the building looks kinda grey, needs some other colours in the mix
I like it it has a very functional look. I don't know if that's what you're going for but it works.
Hey! I like, run this... or something:
<3 Chiefwiggy
When should the player reach the victory monument? Or does it really matter? The monument has always been a hub and a home for the player on their adventure (important early game, decreases travel time) and also a vital part to completing the map (obviously, but the vm in the end game goal). In recent maps we've had the monument at I1 and up to I3 (can't think of any I4 or I5, might be derpin').
UT3 - After I1
IM - After I3
TGP - I1
So what do you think? And when will you be putting the monument in your next map?
<3 Chiefwiggy I personally like putting intersection 2 off of an area in intersection 2. Not a direct are to the monument but a path in one of the i2 areas that leads to the monument, but doesn't lead to i3. In inspired Gallery i put my monument right off of one of my i2 areas, but if you continued forth in the area you'd also notice the path to i3. So thats just my opinion
I was thinking of whether to post a map download along with the picture. This could be the new skyblock!
Oh noes! I deleted it!
This one will 10000x better!
Because Vechs is totally gonna fix a map he made over a year ago XD
@VM My monument's between I3 and I4.
[YOUR AD HERE FOR JUST $69.69]
Pffffffft! Frighten the player?! If I was trying to scare the player, I'd just use Jeffery. Yes, Jeff, you all know who I'm talkin' about! That would frighten the player (and slice a few hours off their sleep)! Anyways, back to CTM...
OMG MEDIA FIRE WON'T UPLOAD THE BEST MAP EVAR AND I DON"T KNOW WHYA?!!!111!1111!
So, for anyone who's used Media Fire before, It just stops at 0%, for no apparent reason. So now I can't upload the best CTM map ever made. T-T
So what i have done is for Inspired Gallery there are 5 of each wool you must collect for the monument in 5 different fleecy boxes, each appropriatly labeled with which wool number it is. For example, in one fleecy box in an area you could find Wool #3/5 and in a different one, still in the same area contains White Wool 4/5. So there are a total of 80 wools and 7 metal blocks/special blocks. I wanted to know if this would classify as a uCTM or a CTM. By the way, dont complain or critisize the idea itself because the map is already finished an im sure as *heck* not changing it.
<3 Chiefwiggy
inb4 everyone questions the balance- trust me, it's balanced.
[YOUR AD HERE FOR JUST $69.69]
<3 Chiefwiggy
I actually tried to be humorous but I tripped, fell down the stairs into the basement with grues sucking my blood, but a wizard appeared and saved me only to make me his enslave my mind to write that post.
I never make excuses.
On the first part:
Being able to do everything you want to do is bad for strategy. Adventure maps that don't allow you to break blocks should require more strategy than any map where you can do anything you want. But they are being executed poorly, most adventure maps are just a slashing fest with no strategy, but that's where you guys misjudge a whole genre. When you have only one option to solve something, it turns into a puzzle game. When there's many options it turns into a tactical game. When you are allowed to box yourself in and attack a bosses' feets, it turns into what you like, not really strategy, just sandbox. There needs to be a balance between liberty and linearity. When combined they will make a fine strategy game.
Most CTM's right now are like a game of chess where any piece can defeat another piece by just being next to them. Chess has different attack conditions for each piece. You can use the pawn to attack diagonally front, you can use the horse to attack in a T pattern, you can use the tower to attack directly front, etc... But even with these attack limitations, you have multiple pieces and space to work with, giving you a fine strategy game.
Let's apply it in Minecraft:
Wall of text incoming.
Most adventure maps tend to make combat very straight forward, only two options, hit or shoot with no strategy. Let's start with your limitations: You have mining fatigue 5 and no blocks, there's a slow mob with weakness IV and negative jumpboos that splashes potions only on the ground level, but you provide an environment with elevated ground. Of course you could just jump and hit, but you will fall to the potion, if the potion isn't that much of a trouble, the puzzlemaker could always make it more punishing.
You can go to that elevated ground or shoot him, however you will soon notice he has high knockback resistance and some sort projectile protection (Not really noticeable, but the map maker can do it possible for the player to notice, like how Orange did with colored armor in ED3). You can go to the elevated ground, but that's just in range from a sniper, you could snipe him to death, but you notice that he is on a pressure plate connected to a cage's gate that's full of angry monkeys. If you did kill him, the monkeys with really high jump boost and speed will prevent you from staying in the elevated ground.
Let's take compare the limitations to chess. You are either the king or the queen, you can attack and move to all directions like the king, or you can shoot a long distance and teleport to all directions like the queen. Let's say that you don't have Enderpearls, and the queen is disabled because of the ProjProt and KnockRes. The slow mob will be a pawn, he will move directly towards you but he can only attack to the ground and can't melee you. The sniper will be the tower, since it will only attack when you are in range of the elevated ground, it will only attack a certain direction with range. The monkeys will be the horses (Not the mob, the chess piece), they have a better than average range simulated by the speed and they can jump blocks, similar how horses can jump other pieces. Let's say the monkeys are melee skeletons, so they circle around to simulate their tricky T movement pattern.
That's your limitations, now let's look at your options. Let's say there's a chandeliers on top, you can shoot them to make them fall. Unfortunately they are in the range of another tower. However you can use it to give you as a pawn obstruction, so you can pillar dance on it like in any roguelike game. Now that you have thinking time, you can develop your strategy. You see that the pressure plates below the towers are wooden, and realize that any drop or arrow will trigger them. But you aren't in an angle where you can activate the pressure plate. You see dispensers vertically parallel to the pressure plates, with a wooden button. But you see that it is also wired up to a less intimidating cage of horses. Then you see a ladder next to a button that could take you to the tower's sniping spots. Then you see a really easy scramble square puzzle (Those 3x3 square grids that you have to match to make an image) made with buttons wired up to a gate that could potentially cover the cage if dropped down.
In conclusion, you have 5 options:
+You could activate the dispensers and combat the weaker horses, shoot the towers, go into elevated ground, and kill the pawn.
+You could shoot the ladder, take shots, drop items into the tower's presure plate, kill the tower, go to elevated ground and kill the pawn.
+You could use the chandelier for thinking time, finish the puzzle, kill the tower, got to elevated ground and kill the pawn.
+You could test your luck/skill and take on the pawn if you have noticed his attack patterns to skillfully kill him.
+You could kill the tower, and test your luck/skill and take on the monkeys, if you know their attack patterns to skillfully kill them, then kill the pawn.
Now, you may be asking why did I just type this wall of text, well first let's do this without limitations. You don't have mining fatigue and you have blocks. You make yourself an elevated ground not in range of the skelleton and kill both the pawn and the skellie. You make a crybox and kill da feetz. Strategy...
If you don't get my point, what I mean is that strategy comes from a mixture of limitations and options, sandbox comes from options, and puzzles from limitations.
Look at stealth games like mark of the ninja. Stealth should always be a different take on puzzle games. You are giving limited options, these are the environment and your equipment. But you also have your limitations, if you want an undetected run, you will require to think some strategy. But are most stealth games labeled as puzzle games? No, only Gunpoint, because the developers want to make it known what stealth is supposed to be. So if this is applied to a CTM with mining fatigue, it still has the depth and structure of a CTM map, and frankly, it can make combat more interesting if used on different situations. Just like Mark of the Ninja, the developers don't label it as a puzzle game, so your CTM won't be labeled as a puzzle game unless you want it to, like Gunpoint.
On the second part:
I think most of you are misunderstanding my reason for that post. Vechs is making a map with mining fatigue 5, and labeling as CTM, and I said the freedom part of the CTM conditions is now obsolete. And thanks to everyone that explained that uCTM thing, they seem like my way to go.
Right from the get-go. After introduction cinematic.
What I got from that wall of text:
1. We all use cryboxes and elevated platforms.
2. CTM maps require no strategy.
3. Vechs is the ultimate one and only definer of CTM definitions (which makes this argument pointless unless you're some sort of disciple or something)
4. 2 neat games define all of the genres they are in.
In conclusion, stop.
What's your problem? Seriously, I won't even use excuses to cover my late post. You keep babysitting me every time I post something even if it's not directed to you, I thought this thread was supposed to be a discussion thread or something, but right after people talk about the genre labeling and such. You don't bash em, you reply to me.
To 1:
Yea, how's that good?
To 2:
Did you even read Virthue's post? He basically implied that not breaking blocks removes strategy, and I replied to that specific part of the post in the first part. The second part is about how he defines CTM's.
To 3:
I don't even play super hostile that much, I have only completed 3 of SH maps in one run, never replayed them TBH. I just watched his test world video and I heard something fishy, that's why I am here.
To 4:
Oh look, I forgot to list my source of experience of all the tactical RPGS, real time strategy games, puzzle games, stealth games, board games etc.. That I have played! People will think I don't know about tactical games so I will just put chess, MOTN, and Gunpoint to cover myah! Obviously not. I could give you my whole repertoire of strategy games but I won't, don't pick on the lack of hundreds of examples.
And I would never say a genre doesn't have strategy potential. As long as it has a strategic balance between options and limitations, it's strategic.
Look at his test world video.
I speak for a lot of people here when I say we've had enough drama about this subject that we should drop it.
Now, stop.
Edit: Got ninja'd (if thats the correct use of the term :P) by hybran