Some people simply don't want moderators policing something as subjective as vagueness.
Besides that, your requirements are vague. What "facts and evidence" do you need to support adding a decorative block? Isn't "Well, I think it'd be nice to have" enough reason for why there are half the blocks in Minecraft? What do you need to say to justify having a hanging light added such as a wall mounted candle or chandelier, or a new decorative nether block, such as something hidden under the lava lakes like hardened obsidian or magma rock? If I were a new member, your requirements would make me feel like I can't post decorative ideas, because I can't find facts or evidence to support adding them, because there are already blocks that cover their functionality and decorative ones are never necessary. The why is basically going to amount to a variation of "because it'd be cool" or "because it'd be pretty." The how isn't clear what you're asking. How is it added, or how is it acquired, or how does it behave? All very different answer based on what you meant.
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It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
Some people simply don't want moderators policing something as subjective as vagueness.
Besides that, your requirements are vague. What "facts and evidence" do you need to support adding a decorative block? Isn't "Well, I think it'd be nice to have" enough reason for why there are half the blocks in Minecraft? What do you need to say to justify having a hanging light added such as a wall mounted candle or chandelier, or a new decorative nether block, such as something hidden under the lava lakes like hardened obsidian or magma rock? If I were a new member, your requirements would make me feel like I can't post decorative ideas, because I can't find facts or evidence to support adding them, because there are already blocks that cover their functionality and decorative ones are never necessary. The why is basically going to amount to a variation of "because it'd be cool" or "because it'd be pretty." The how isn't clear what you're asking. How is it added, or how is it acquired, or how does it behave? All very different answer based on what you meant.
So much this. Essentially what I said above, but you explained it and stuff. I find it a shame that the most vocal of Suggestions users seem to support the vague rule. I think this is something that needs to be talked about so that people can stop acting like people who think the opposite to them on the matter have ruined the section entirely.
To further exemplify my point, I'm going to take Eggman's idea of a vague rule, and create a vague thread which follows that rule:
"with the Why,What,How, and at least 2 sentences of explanation with facts and evidence to support"
I suggest a pink dinosaur. This should exist because dinosaurs would add variety. They would add this by using the spider AI. This could be done because they've added new mobs before easily. Also, a lot of people want a pink mob.
There, I just wrote five sentences of utter trash. Complete vagueness, and it all fits with your rules.
The rule most people I went by when defining what vague suggestions were was that for a suggestion to be not vague, a competent modder could implement the idea without much more additional gameplay and appearance thought. That is, it could be designed to work to a good level, or it could be conceptualised to work by only referring to the thread and not thinking about aspects of the design too much.
Regarding your pink dinosaur, if it were 2015, I would respond as per the following:
Vague
Please ensure that sufficient detail in included in your suggestion. What would this dinosaur look like? What would it drop? How big would it be? Where would it spawn? How many health points? How much damage? Does it breed? How will it interact with the player? Will it pounce like the spider AI you've mentioned?
More detail is required for this to be a good suggestion.
The rule most people I went by when defining what vague suggestions were was that for a suggestion to be not vague, a competent modder could implement the idea without much more additional gameplay and appearance thought. That is, it could be designed to work to a good level, or it could be conceptualised to work by only referring to the thread and not thinking about aspects of the design too much.
Regarding your pink dinosaur, if it were 2015, I would respond as per the following:
This is highly subjective still, and is essentially a "no bad suggestions" rule. The idea is that a rule should be a simple checklist of sorts. "Is there a bad word? Yes? Broken a rule." etc. When you start making complex rules such as this that not everybody is going to agree on, you've got an issue. Not every modder is going to agree on how much detail is needed to implement an idea. Furthermore you say "without much more ... thought". How much more thought is okay on the modder's part before the suggestion becomes vague? These are crucial factors. Rules need to be black and white. A five year old needs to be able to look at the rule, look at the thread and then tell me if the rule has been broken without failure. If a five year old can't make the judgement the same as everybody else, the rule isn't good enough.
I see the the vague rule as similar to a rule against new weapon tiers. We don't need rules blocking bad suggestions, we need rules blocking things that actually harm the forum. Let the bad threads die, we don't need to be quite so elitist that we give warnings and bans for making bad suggestions.
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
Actually, for some reason I think there used to be in fact a rule against emerald tools. Anyway, back on topic. I would expect a person to be able to use some common sense. We're not talking about suggestions where the poster has forgotten to include the health; we're talking about suggestions where it is 'why dont Mojang add gunz I like them and they are good for killing creepers'. There exists a middle ground between a vague suggestion and a detailed suggestion. No threads used to be locked just because Person A forgot X; it's when X, Y, Z, H, K, I, K, L, M, N and O are all missing, leading to a pointless thread about a vague, wishy-washy suggestion, spectral-like in existence having little to no meat to bulk it out and give it meaning.
Actually, for some reason I think there used to be in fact a rule against emerald tools.
'Used to be' being the operative term.
Anyway, back on topic. I would expect a person to be able to use some common sense.
Well prepare for your hopes to be dashed no matter what rules are put in place.
We're not talking about suggestions where the poster has forgotten to include the health; we're talking about suggestions where it is 'why dont Mojang add gunz I like them and they are good for killing creepers'. There exists a middle ground between a vague suggestion and a detailed suggestion. No threads used to be locked just because Person A forgot X; it's when X, Y, Z, H, K, I, K, L, M, N and O are all missing, leading to a pointless thread about a vague, wishy-washy suggestion, spectral-like in existence having little to no meat to bulk it out and give it meaning.
This is all big words with no real clarification as to what you're actually talking about. You can't provide a concrete set of rules because it's impossible. Your rule is vague, like the suggestions you're trying to prevent, and that's how the vague rule will always be. Until you can give me a bulleted list of concrete rules a 5 year old could understand, your rule isn't good enough to actually be put into place, for the exact reasons the vague rule was removed in the first place.
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
Yeah well my rule needs some clarification, why,what,how, anything else you have to say for suggestions, and some rock hard solid evidence why something needs to be implemented that isn't opinionated but with facts and evidence to support the idea.
That's all we have for today folks. Moral of today's show, if you want to make a creative suggestion, you can't.
"rock hard solid evidence why something needs to be implemented that isn't opinionated but with facts and evidence to support the idea." I find this to be a plain ludicrous statement. Nothing needs to be implemented in the game. It would have been fine 2 years ago, but people suggest things they think would be a cool addition to the game, period.
I challenge you to provide a clear example of something breaking your rule, and someone following your rule.
As others have previously said, it's not a mods right to decide on something as subjective as whether or not a suggestion is vague. The community votes as to whether it's a good idea or not, and then help the suggester to improve upon their suggestion.
It is vague. It is completely vague. But your proposed rule doesn't classify it as vague, because you can't class vague with a rule.
Ok, then i have several questions:
What type of dinosaur?
Why this variety?
Why it's yellow?
How yellow is it? Pale? Golden?
How usefull is this?
Etc.
Now, answer them.
Oh dear...
What? You don't understand? You may know what is a silly sentence (no example).
So what you're saying, in English, is "vagueness is not a yes or no, it is a measurement". Is that right? You're saying there is no "this is vague" or "this isn't vague", but there is "this is more vague than average", or "this is less vague than average". Is that what you're saying? Because that's totally right. And that's why we can't have a vague thread rule. Because nobody will ever agree on what counts as vague. I'm not going to help you come up with a vague thread rule because I think it is impossible to create a good one. That is why I challenge anybody who supports the vague thread rule to tell me how they would define it. And if I can come up with a vague thread idea which dodges their rule, I win, right?
Ok, what do you want? A simple checklist of questions? A tree of questions? Or auto-expanding list of questions? Yes, there's "Vagueness". But you can set a threshold.
The definition of Vague is simple.
If there's Gray Area, it's Vague.
If you have questions, there's Gray Area.
---------------------------------------------
If you have questions, it's Vague.
Easy right?
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I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
I don't have to because your rule doesn't demand I do. Furthermore, you can't confirm that a moderator would ask the same questions, because the rule is subjective.
A moderator's job is to lock it or not lock it. If you would lock my thread, you need a rule which gives you permission to do that.
What? You don't understand? You may know what is a silly sentence (no example).
I said oh dear because that idea was so ridiculous.
Ok, what do you want? A simple checklist of questions? A tree of questions? Or auto-expanding list of questions? Yes, there's "Vagueness". But you can set a threshold.
Uh... I want people to stop trying to get the vague rule back?
I don't want anything, that's the point, it's a dumb rule.
The definition of Vague is simple.
If there's Gray Area, it's Vague.
If you have questions, there's Gray Area.
---------------------------------------------
If you have questions, it's Vague.
Easy right?
So I can write a dissertation on my idea, thousands of words, including every detail except my dinosaur's sound file. But that means you could ask what is sounds like! Lock it!
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
So I can write a dissertation on my idea, thousands of words, including every detail except my dinosaur's sound file. But that means you could ask what is sounds like! Lock it!
That's for him. But if Mojang needs it, where in the world you hide? Think about Mojang. That's why only 0.01% suggestion implemented. Because they want a complete proposals. And don't be so strict. It can grow. Maybe at the beginning there's text wall, then sone whitespaces, and then pics, and more! It's collaboration. But if it's stagnant, then slowly it can going vague.
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I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
That's for him. But if Mojang needs it, where in the world you hide? Think about Mojang. That's why only 0.01% suggestion implemented. Because they want a complete proposals.
And don't be so strict. It can grow. Maybe at the beginning there's text wall, then sone whitespaces, and then pics, and more! It's collaboration. But if it's stagnant, then slowly it can going vague.
These are two contradictory statements. You want us to lock vague threads, but you want to help them improve?
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
Doesn't matter if they contradict your arguments or not, many people support some form of vague thread rule and Gamelord is just one person here, odds are some form of a vague thread rule will be implemented as many support it, the ideas of many outweigh the ideas of one. I think in the suggestion thread that there should be a minimum character limit let's say 200 characters and anything that's short of that can't be posted, eliminates the short vague threads and if the other ideas stated here were implemented vague threads would be reported and locked/deleted.
Irrelevant. Constructive discussion is required before such action can and will be taken. We need to discuss it thoroughly before we reach a conclusion. Also, plenty more people than just me do not support the vague rule (namely the forum staff, if you hadn't noticed).
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
The reason the vague rule was removed is because it was vague in and of itself.
There are short, complete, suggestions that explain a suggestion completely in as little as 1 sentence. They are not vague, and adding more detail to it can actually hurt the suggestion. Meanwhile, others would see that lone sentence and mark it as vague because it's not some prescribed length of general consensus (even though one had not been established).
Because the baby was getting thrown out with the bathwater, the mods removed vague as a rule. While OP tries to redefine it to be more guided; it still doesn't actually help a vague suggestion be less vague. It instead gives a guideline to be vague through.
The answer here is not an answer anyone likes or wants to tackle (or in a lot of cases, even can) and that is to make a much more replete set of objectives a suggestion would need to handle.
And, really. Who wants that? It's too academic; there's nothing of interest. Things become routine and boring.
So, what are we left with? Suggestions are just the same as before the vague rule was implemented and mods and other posters work with OP to improve the suggestion.
Because it was stupid for all the reasons I've already mentioned. To clarify, the issue was that that it was ironically pretty vague. The rule was basically 'no vague threads'. But if you look in Suggestions even now you will find arguments between people on this. One person says "this suggestions is vague", and the other person says "no it isn't, I think he just needs to work on it a little bit more, but it's okay". The problem is when moderators start disagreeing on it. One moderator might lock a thread because it is vague, but then five different people kick up a fuss because they think it isn't vague and the moderator is abusing his powers.
The problem is that vagueness is a scale. Look at other rules. On this forum, you can't post profanities. That's really easy to moderate. There's no debating if a thread had a bad word. It either does or it doesn't. You can't spam. The rules say "The most common spam posts are posting "tl:dr;", "+1", "this", posting image macros, and nothing but memes or images." With that in mind, if a post consists of only those words, that's it. Warning. Done.
Vagueness, however, is a scale, as I said. Imagine vagueness as something you can rate on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 is amazingly detailed, 10 is super vague. You can't do that with profanities. It's either a profanity or it isn't, job done. But if you've ever tried to rate something 1 to 10 with a friend, you will know that the two of you never agree unless it was a 1 or a 10, basically. This is the issue. If a mod locks something and somebody else doesn't think it is vague, the mod is called out for abusing power. If somebody thinks it is vague and a mod doesn't, the mod gets called out for not doing his job.
It's a lose-lose situation for everybody. The only solution is to not have the rule and either help vague posters to improve or let their topics die. Easy.
I do wonder how often, say, Sunperp has come under fire for 'abusing power' when it comes to vagueness. If him or any other Suggestions moderator could let us in on that, it would help put things into perspective. I'd guess that lots of angry messages have been sent about abuse of power on this matter.
Well, what constitutes as a swear word or profanity? For sake of argument, let's say 'blob' and 'frog' are swear words, however 'blob' also means a type of French cheese and 'froggy' is somewhat dated or not really seen as profanity any more (cf. damn; bloody). Would it be profanity if I said, 'You're a blob!'? What about if I said , 'Wow, you're so froggy stupid'.
The point is, 9 times out of 10, it is clear when a word is profanity. The same goes for vague suggestions. A lot of vague suggestions locked in the past were obviously very vague. One couldn't even picture such a thing in one's mind. No-one would argue that 'let's add flying hippos lol' isn't vague (or I hope so at least). Borderline vague suggestions could always be allowed. Up to the individual moderator's discretion, if a thread were to be locked and everyone else disagrees, it could be easily unlocked. However, nearly always, no-one will argue because it is obviously locked.
Now, saying that, it would be easier to just let vague threads die. But if that were to happen, the poster wouldn't get feedback as to how to improve. I feel it's important to give the OP information on how he can improve. Which I suppose it what happens now, but it really does clog up the place with vague suggestions since people can't be given an infraction for it.
Now, saying that, it would be easier to just let vague threads die. But if that were to happen, the poster wouldn't get feedback as to how to improve. I feel it's important to give the OP information on how he can improve. Which I suppose it what happens now, but it really does clog up the place with vague suggestions since people can't be given an infraction for it.
And it's tiring to repeatly say "Vague! Please more detail!" with no response at all. And mods can't take any action because the rule is removed.
Conclusion : So many people benefit by the rule. And you can always use common sense. It's Elephant Test"is hard to describe, but instantly recognizable when spotted." So, no need for keep arguing to make a flame war because of this.
Well, what constitutes as a swear word or profanity? For sake of argument, let's say 'blob' and 'frog' are swear words, however 'blob' also means a type of French cheese and 'froggy' is somewhat dated or not really seen as profanity any more (cf. damn; bloody). Would it be profanity if I said, 'You're a blob!'? What about if I said , 'Wow, you're so froggy stupid'.
You're making up nonsense. If you haven't got an example which actually exists, the point is moot.
The point is, 9 times out of 10, it is clear when a word is profanity.
Make that 10 times, because made up words don't count.
The same goes for vague suggestions. A lot of vague suggestions locked in the past were obviously very vague. One couldn't even picture such a thing in one's mind. No-one would argue that 'let's add flying hippos lol' isn't vague (or I hope so at least). Borderline vague suggestions could always be allowed. Up to the individual moderator's discretion, if a thread were to be locked and everyone else disagrees, it could be easily unlocked. However, nearly always, no-one will argue because it is obviously locked.
You make it sound so easy. So I ask you, why was the rule removed? Oh, I know, you're talking with zero experience of the matter and don't realise that it actually sparked plenty of controversy (and still does when a normal user declares vagueness).
Now, saying that, it would be easier to just let vague threads die. But if that were to happen, the poster wouldn't get feedback as to how to improve. I feel it's important to give the OP information on how he can improve. Which I suppose it what happens now, but it really does clog up the place with vague suggestions since people can't be given an infraction for it.
Lol @ locking results in more feedback than leaving it open.
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
And it's tiring to repeatly say "Vague! Please more detail!" with no response at all. And mods can't take any action because the rule is removed.
Conclusion : So many people benefit by the rule. And you can always use common sense. It's Elephant Test"is hard to describe, but instantly recognizable when spotted." So, no need for keep arguing.
So what you're saying is "I'm right no need to argue". Lol, why did you make this thread if I'm not even allowed to discuss it now? Sigh.
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Formerly Gamelord. Pixelmon Server Owner. Server IP: pixelmonprisma.mc-server.net | Server Discord:https://discord.gg/HkK855b
Close mindedness always leads the wrong direction, he needs to open his mind.
He's not being closed minded, he disagrees with you. Neither of you have presented any arguments that have swayed me in the slightest. You can claim he's closed minded as much as he can claim you are.
If it's so easy, give me 2 examples. 1 of something that is just barely too vague, and 1 that has enough to not be locked. I can do that easy with swearing, flaming, spam, bumping, advertising, behaving maliciously, or engaging in illegal activity that violates United States law. Because all of those are either it is or it isn't, there isn't a scale to it, it's binary. Vagueness is not.
Edit: In addition, all of the suggestion specific rules I can give an example of one that violates and one that doesn't without going to extremes.
Some people simply don't want moderators policing something as subjective as vagueness.
Besides that, your requirements are vague. What "facts and evidence" do you need to support adding a decorative block? Isn't "Well, I think it'd be nice to have" enough reason for why there are half the blocks in Minecraft? What do you need to say to justify having a hanging light added such as a wall mounted candle or chandelier, or a new decorative nether block, such as something hidden under the lava lakes like hardened obsidian or magma rock? If I were a new member, your requirements would make me feel like I can't post decorative ideas, because I can't find facts or evidence to support adding them, because there are already blocks that cover their functionality and decorative ones are never necessary. The why is basically going to amount to a variation of "because it'd be cool" or "because it'd be pretty." The how isn't clear what you're asking. How is it added, or how is it acquired, or how does it behave? All very different answer based on what you meant.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --
So much this. Essentially what I said above, but you explained it and stuff. I find it a shame that the most vocal of Suggestions users seem to support the vague rule. I think this is something that needs to be talked about so that people can stop acting like people who think the opposite to them on the matter have ruined the section entirely.
To further exemplify my point, I'm going to take Eggman's idea of a vague rule, and create a vague thread which follows that rule:
"with the Why,What,How, and at least 2 sentences of explanation with facts and evidence to support"
I suggest a pink dinosaur. This should exist because dinosaurs would add variety. They would add this by using the spider AI. This could be done because they've added new mobs before easily. Also, a lot of people want a pink mob.
There, I just wrote five sentences of utter trash. Complete vagueness, and it all fits with your rules.
The rule
most peopleI went by when defining what vague suggestions were was that for a suggestion to be not vague, a competent modder could implement the idea without much more additional gameplay and appearance thought. That is, it could be designed to work to a good level, or it could be conceptualised to work by only referring to the thread and not thinking about aspects of the design too much.Regarding your pink dinosaur, if it were 2015, I would respond as per the following:
This is highly subjective still, and is essentially a "no bad suggestions" rule. The idea is that a rule should be a simple checklist of sorts. "Is there a bad word? Yes? Broken a rule." etc. When you start making complex rules such as this that not everybody is going to agree on, you've got an issue. Not every modder is going to agree on how much detail is needed to implement an idea. Furthermore you say "without much more ... thought". How much more thought is okay on the modder's part before the suggestion becomes vague? These are crucial factors. Rules need to be black and white. A five year old needs to be able to look at the rule, look at the thread and then tell me if the rule has been broken without failure. If a five year old can't make the judgement the same as everybody else, the rule isn't good enough.
I see the the vague rule as similar to a rule against new weapon tiers. We don't need rules blocking bad suggestions, we need rules blocking things that actually harm the forum. Let the bad threads die, we don't need to be quite so elitist that we give warnings and bans for making bad suggestions.
Actually, for some reason I think there used to be in fact a rule against emerald tools. Anyway, back on topic. I would expect a person to be able to use some common sense. We're not talking about suggestions where the poster has forgotten to include the health; we're talking about suggestions where it is 'why dont Mojang add gunz I like them and they are good for killing creepers'. There exists a middle ground between a vague suggestion and a detailed suggestion. No threads used to be locked just because Person A forgot X; it's when X, Y, Z, H, K, I, K, L, M, N and O are all missing, leading to a pointless thread about a vague, wishy-washy suggestion, spectral-like in existence having little to no meat to bulk it out and give it meaning.
'Used to be' being the operative term.
Well prepare for your hopes to be dashed no matter what rules are put in place.
This is all big words with no real clarification as to what you're actually talking about. You can't provide a concrete set of rules because it's impossible. Your rule is vague, like the suggestions you're trying to prevent, and that's how the vague rule will always be. Until you can give me a bulleted list of concrete rules a 5 year old could understand, your rule isn't good enough to actually be put into place, for the exact reasons the vague rule was removed in the first place.
That's all we have for today folks. Moral of today's show, if you want to make a creative suggestion, you can't.
"rock hard solid evidence why something needs to be implemented that isn't opinionated but with facts and evidence to support the idea." I find this to be a plain ludicrous statement. Nothing needs to be implemented in the game. It would have been fine 2 years ago, but people suggest things they think would be a cool addition to the game, period.
I challenge you to provide a clear example of something breaking your rule, and someone following your rule.
As others have previously said, it's not a mods right to decide on something as subjective as whether or not a suggestion is vague. The community votes as to whether it's a good idea or not, and then help the suggester to improve upon their suggestion.
Sorry for late response. My project stuck.
Ok, then i have several questions:
Now, answer them.
What? You don't understand? You may know what is a silly sentence (no example).
Ok, what do you want? A simple checklist of questions? A tree of questions? Or auto-expanding list of questions? Yes, there's "Vagueness". But you can set a threshold.
The definition of Vague is simple.
Easy right?
I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
My Suggestions
I don't have to because your rule doesn't demand I do. Furthermore, you can't confirm that a moderator would ask the same questions, because the rule is subjective.
A moderator's job is to lock it or not lock it. If you would lock my thread, you need a rule which gives you permission to do that.
I said oh dear because that idea was so ridiculous.
Uh... I want people to stop trying to get the vague rule back?
I don't want anything, that's the point, it's a dumb rule.
So I can write a dissertation on my idea, thousands of words, including every detail except my dinosaur's sound file. But that means you could ask what is sounds like! Lock it!
That's for him. But if Mojang needs it, where in the world you hide? Think about Mojang. That's why only 0.01% suggestion implemented. Because they want a complete proposals. And don't be so strict. It can grow. Maybe at the beginning there's text wall, then sone whitespaces, and then pics, and more! It's collaboration. But if it's stagnant, then slowly it can going vague.
I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
My Suggestions
These are two contradictory statements. You want us to lock vague threads, but you want to help them improve?
Irrelevant. Constructive discussion is required before such action can and will be taken. We need to discuss it thoroughly before we reach a conclusion. Also, plenty more people than just me do not support the vague rule (namely the forum staff, if you hadn't noticed).
The reason the vague rule was removed is because it was vague in and of itself.
There are short, complete, suggestions that explain a suggestion completely in as little as 1 sentence. They are not vague, and adding more detail to it can actually hurt the suggestion. Meanwhile, others would see that lone sentence and mark it as vague because it's not some prescribed length of general consensus (even though one had not been established).
Because the baby was getting thrown out with the bathwater, the mods removed vague as a rule. While OP tries to redefine it to be more guided; it still doesn't actually help a vague suggestion be less vague. It instead gives a guideline to be vague through.
The answer here is not an answer anyone likes or wants to tackle (or in a lot of cases, even can) and that is to make a much more replete set of objectives a suggestion would need to handle.
And, really. Who wants that? It's too academic; there's nothing of interest. Things become routine and boring.
So, what are we left with? Suggestions are just the same as before the vague rule was implemented and mods and other posters work with OP to improve the suggestion.
OFFICIAL POSTING/REPLYING GUIDELINES
UNOFFICIAL POSTING GUIDE (PRT)
UNOFFICIAL REPLYING GUIDE (FTC)
Because it was stupid for all the reasons I've already mentioned. To clarify, the issue was that that it was ironically pretty vague. The rule was basically 'no vague threads'. But if you look in Suggestions even now you will find arguments between people on this. One person says "this suggestions is vague", and the other person says "no it isn't, I think he just needs to work on it a little bit more, but it's okay". The problem is when moderators start disagreeing on it. One moderator might lock a thread because it is vague, but then five different people kick up a fuss because they think it isn't vague and the moderator is abusing his powers.
The problem is that vagueness is a scale. Look at other rules. On this forum, you can't post profanities. That's really easy to moderate. There's no debating if a thread had a bad word. It either does or it doesn't. You can't spam. The rules say "The most common spam posts are posting "tl:dr;", "+1", "this", posting image macros, and nothing but memes or images." With that in mind, if a post consists of only those words, that's it. Warning. Done.
Vagueness, however, is a scale, as I said. Imagine vagueness as something you can rate on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 is amazingly detailed, 10 is super vague. You can't do that with profanities. It's either a profanity or it isn't, job done. But if you've ever tried to rate something 1 to 10 with a friend, you will know that the two of you never agree unless it was a 1 or a 10, basically. This is the issue. If a mod locks something and somebody else doesn't think it is vague, the mod is called out for abusing power. If somebody thinks it is vague and a mod doesn't, the mod gets called out for not doing his job.
It's a lose-lose situation for everybody. The only solution is to not have the rule and either help vague posters to improve or let their topics die. Easy.
I do wonder how often, say, Sunperp has come under fire for 'abusing power' when it comes to vagueness. If him or any other Suggestions moderator could let us in on that, it would help put things into perspective. I'd guess that lots of angry messages have been sent about abuse of power on this matter.
Well, what constitutes as a swear word or profanity? For sake of argument, let's say 'blob' and 'frog' are swear words, however 'blob' also means a type of French cheese and 'froggy' is somewhat dated or not really seen as profanity any more (cf. damn; bloody). Would it be profanity if I said, 'You're a blob!'? What about if I said , 'Wow, you're so froggy stupid'.
The point is, 9 times out of 10, it is clear when a word is profanity. The same goes for vague suggestions. A lot of vague suggestions locked in the past were obviously very vague. One couldn't even picture such a thing in one's mind. No-one would argue that 'let's add flying hippos lol' isn't vague (or I hope so at least). Borderline vague suggestions could always be allowed. Up to the individual moderator's discretion, if a thread were to be locked and everyone else disagrees, it could be easily unlocked. However, nearly always, no-one will argue because it is obviously locked.
Now, saying that, it would be easier to just let vague threads die. But if that were to happen, the poster wouldn't get feedback as to how to improve. I feel it's important to give the OP information on how he can improve. Which I suppose it what happens now, but it really does clog up the place with vague suggestions since people can't be given an infraction for it.
Bona solutio non est.
And it's tiring to repeatly say "Vague! Please more detail!" with no response at all. And mods can't take any action because the rule is removed.
Conclusion : So many people benefit by the rule. And you can always use common sense. It's Elephant Test "is hard to describe, but instantly recognizable when spotted." So, no need
for keep arguingto make a flame war because of this.I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
My Suggestions
You're making up nonsense. If you haven't got an example which actually exists, the point is moot.
Make that 10 times, because made up words don't count.
You make it sound so easy. So I ask you, why was the rule removed? Oh, I know, you're talking with zero experience of the matter and don't realise that it actually sparked plenty of controversy (and still does when a normal user declares vagueness).
Lol @ locking results in more feedback than leaving it open.
So what you're saying is "I'm right no need to argue". Lol, why did you make this thread if I'm not even allowed to discuss it now? Sigh.
Oh sorry, I'm tired by the time I wrote that. I've changed it now.
And yeah Gamelord, I can't discuss this with you anymore. You've blocked your mind, so no matter how many time i say, you won't listen.
I'm a programmer. I use C/C++, BASIC, Assembly, and Python. If i sound too technicial, that's because it's the way i think.
My Suggestions
He's not being closed minded, he disagrees with you. Neither of you have presented any arguments that have swayed me in the slightest. You can claim he's closed minded as much as he can claim you are.
If it's so easy, give me 2 examples. 1 of something that is just barely too vague, and 1 that has enough to not be locked. I can do that easy with swearing, flaming, spam, bumping, advertising, behaving maliciously, or engaging in illegal activity that violates United States law. Because all of those are either it is or it isn't, there isn't a scale to it, it's binary. Vagueness is not.
Edit: In addition, all of the suggestion specific rules I can give an example of one that violates and one that doesn't without going to extremes.
It's hard to follow your dreams when you run from your nightmares. --