The change was to farms that give you items such as gold and iron, such that you couldn't sit AFK for three hours and get free Iron and Gold. (with the change) in order to get Iron ingots from a iron golem and gold nuggets or ingots from a pigman, a player must be responsible for the death of the pigman.
Made sense to me. Literally the only effect is to make it so Iron and Gold cannot be had for free, really.
I don't know if it applied to standard mob farms, though given you need to kill mobs yourself to get XP anyways it made sense to apply that also to item drops.
I've never really followed the "sandbox" argument, considering 'sandbox' is what people lump it as and has nothing to do with anything in the design. GTA3 is technically a "sandbox" game but nobody seems to use that to suggest that upside down cars should not catch fire.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people fail to understand that the main 'sandbox' element of Minecraft has been shifted to creative mode. Survival should not be unbalanced, even if it is 'sandbox'.
I'm sad that Jeb is going to reverse the changes, but I guess that's what happens when 0.01% of the players go to reddit and yell about something they don't like.
...and I was just going to go start a topic about boycotting 1.8 for nerfing gold/iron farms and generally being a crappy update, but then I see this post. Thank God!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
95% of teens would scream if Justin Beiber was about to jump of the top of the Empire State Building. If you are in the 5% that would grab a seat and some popcorn and yell JUMP! JUMP! JUMP! post this into your sig.
My opinion on farming materials is about neutral. I don't mind people finding zombie and skeleton spawners and making a farm out of that. Iron golem farms I'm fine with as long as they don't cause any lag.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people fail to understand that the main 'sandbox' element of Minecraft has been shifted to creative mode. Survival should not be unbalanced, even if it is 'sandbox'.
I'm sad that Jeb is going to reverse the changes, but I guess that's what happens when 0.01% of the players go to reddit and yell about something they don't like.
Well in all fairness you can't really put a percentage on that. You would need to know the exact amount of people who still play minecraft and post on the net on Reddit. The fact that Reddit had that many posts, means there was a far greater percentage of players who did not like the change.
That statement makes it sound like that not many people cared about the changes .. and if that was the case you would be very wrong.
Go on any popular youtube channel who mentioned these changes .. and get the total comments. Then get how many for and against these changes in those comments. You will be able to get a very clear picture that there are far more people bothered by the change. Nearly 75 - 80%.
Of course it wouldn't be 100% accurate to judge the entire player base on that either, but it at least gives you a general idea . it's far far greater then your 0.01%.
I personally don't mind if they nerf it, in the sense that you can't get as much. I am totally fine with that. Breaking these contraptions though is a no go to me. Breaking them by accident is ok .. that stuff happens. I just don't want them to break things purposefully. That is taking sides on how people play, and I don't like it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people fail to understand that the main 'sandbox' element of Minecraft has been shifted to creative mode. Survival should not be unbalanced, even if it is 'sandbox'.
Just wondering if in that statement you considered singleplayers?
I don't know about you, but -- not too often, but sometimes -- I like to play Minecraft as if I was playing TIM. I like contraptions; small, large, huge, simple,complicated, or mind blowing. Creative mode with its internal game rules of passive mobs, destroying blocks and whatnot, does not offer much more than a construction yard. So Survival is the way to go, where I build and run my huge farms and other stupid but fun contraptions.
And the next month I may get bored and want to play survival as an RPG. And next, I may want to play survival as an action game. What you are saying exactly? You are saying, I shouldn't because Survival must obey some balancing rule you can't even really explain in detail because you just know intimately that you can't balance a game like Minecraft that caters for some many gameplay styles.
Though I don't personally use farms, I'm glad they decided to remove the nerfs.
Farms aren't the simplest things to make, and the work they require deserves reward.
The tweets of Jeb are quite interesting in this context. He is clearly not enthusastic about those mega farms, he prefers farms based on real design and not the exploit of unclear or "gray" spawning rules or mechanics in the game.
This is not the first time Jeb speaks about it. It won't be the last time. This conversation is years old! But up until today where are those mechanisms Jeb would like to introduce? Quite frankly, he needs to shape up and look at himself and his team, before he implies that players are exploiting game mechanisms, as if it suddenly this whole farm business was misconduct and misbehavior. I find it incredibly hypocrite of him.
To anyone that has been here since the beginning, we just now. This is how the game was always played by a large and representative group of the community. Some of the most popular videos on YouTube, since well back in indev have always been about players exploring the limits of the game and its rules. It's a natural tendency for a great deal of players playing a game like this to scratch the limits of what the game can offer them. It's always been a sign of respect and admiration, a large or formidable construction that touches those limits. The first mob grinders, the first item farms have always been gladly received by the community and their authors lauded for their exploration of the game mechanics.
And now Jeb comes and implies these people are exploiting his game? The same game whose "gray" and muddy rules have been one of the major sources of fun and entertainment over the years? That he would so very often comment himself. Some of which even figured on MInecraft website during the early days when Notch used to post the work of players? Jeb, the same person that in all these years never even once introduced a game mechanism that could replace these things he is so unhappy about? I don't even!...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
Just wondering if in that statement you considered singleplayers?
I don't know about you, but -- not too often, but sometimes -- I like to play Minecraft as if I was playing TIM. I like contraptions; small, large, huge, simple,complicated, or mind blowing. Creative mode with its internal game rules of passive mobs, destroying blocks and whatnot, does not offer much more than a construction yard. So Survival is the way to go, where I build and run my huge farms and other stupid but fun contraptions.
And the next month I may get bored and want to play survival as an RPG. And next, I may want to play survival as an action game. What you are saying exactly? You are saying, I shouldn't because Survival must obey some balancing rule you can't even really explain in detail because you just know intimately that you can't balance a game like Minecraft that caters for some many gameplay styles.
None of that is being removed; Jeb simply tried to balance those machines. There is no good reason for a player to get ludicrously large amounts of iron and gold with such little effort. You can say "well I want to play that way". Just because somebody wants a dupe glitch to remain, for example, does not mean it's justification to not fix it.
Minecraft is no longer the same sandbox; it hasn't been since they added survival. There are two modes for a reason; creative for people who want to create without any challenge, and survival, for people who want to create with challenge.
Please stop with the straw man arguments. I know you're more reasonable than that, Marfig. Automation still works, and it will always work. Just because you have to slightly modify a machine, does not mean automation as a whole is broken.
I think this could be easily solved (for everybody who wants this change and for those who do not) by adding: /gamerule autodrops. You could toggle whether or not mobs would drop their rare drops with/without the player making the finishing blow.
Change comes, and people wave it away because they'd rather sit AFK for hours while the game plays itself. Then they argue that automation as they know it has been removed; which it total bullcrap. This is just more of the same old crap from the community; change comes, and everybody moans because it's not the change they wanted.
I'll say this one more time, not that it matters anymore, because those who are oblivious will only continue to ignore it:
Farms still work. Completely and totally. All you have to do is stop being AFK long enough to make a few adjustments, and maybe stab a few mobs every once in a while.
None of that is being removed; Jeb simply tried to balance those machines. There is no good reason for a player to get ludicrously large amounts of iron and gold with such little effort. You can say "well I want to play that way". Just because somebody wants a dupe glitch to remain, for example, does not mean it's justification to not fix it.
Minecraft is no longer the same sandbox; it hasn't been since they added survival. There are two modes for a reason; creative for people who want to create without any challenge, and survival, for people who want to create with challenge.
Please stop with the straw man arguments. I know you're more reasonable than that, Marfig. Automation still works, and it will always work. Just because you have to slightly modify a machine, does not mean automation as a whole is broken.
I think this could be easily solved (for everybody who wants this change and for those who do not) by adding: /gamerule autodrops. You could toggle whether or not mobs would drop their rare drops with/without the player making the finishing blow.
Change comes, and people wave it away because they'd rather sit AFK for hours while the game plays itself. Then they argue that automation as they know it has been removed; which it total bullcrap. This is just more of the same old crap from the community; change comes, and everybody moans because it's not the change they wanted.
I'll say this one more time, not that it matters anymore, because those who are oblivious will only continue to ignore it:
Farms still work. Completely and totally. All you have to do is stop being AFK long enough to make a few adjustments, and maybe stab a few mobs every once in a while.
I have to first point out much of what you say is entirely untrue and you are over exaggerating a bit. I use these farms, and I rarely AFK at them. I go about building other things, or I go mining or exploring. These machines also don't just pop up out of no where. You have to work to build it. In most cases, the materials you need to build it, take a lot of time to gather. It's almost like you have never watched a youtuber. Nearly all of them build these farms .. yet they some how manage to have channels that are super popular because they BUILD things. If they simply AFKed all the time .. they wouldn't be popular . .now would they?
The argument that we should jsut play on creative is old. It's stupid, and really makes no sense to use as an argument. In one case, you work for your resources, and the other you do not. Huge difference. Also, don't go and say people who use farms don't work for it, because they certainly do. Again . .these farms don't simply magically appear.
"I think this could be easily solved (for everybody who wants this change and for those who do not) by adding: /gamerule autodrops. You could toggle whether or not mobs would drop their rare drops with/without the player making the finishing blow."
For those who don't like mob farms, why would you need a gamerule to stop you from doing it, if you don't do it to begin with? That is the whole point of why this entire argument started is because it doesn't effect you all. It only effected us. Those who think mob farms shouldn't be used ... where not effected by this change at all because they don't use them. Adding a gamerule or not will not change this.
Ok sure .. it could be useful to enforce it on SMP servers that don't like them .. but they could just as easily enforce it manually just as they always have right? I never assumed this was an issue because no one ever really mentioned it.
Anyway, beyond all of this .. you may ask .. "If you don't AFK .. why do you care so much of this change?" My simple answer is because it's no longer fully automatic. I don't want to have to go back and fourth just clear out a farm when I am working on some other major project. I have to do that enough with other farms as it is that are not fully automatic. I honestly felt the farms have had a very good balance between automatic and semi automatic.
The issue with you .. is you raise so many assumptions on the way people play, even when those assumptions are far from the truth. Why do you do this? Because it makes your crappy argument look better.
Minecraft is no longer the same sandbox; it hasn't been since they added survival. There are two modes for a reason; creative for people who want to create without any challenge, and survival, for people who want to create with challenge.
Excuse me, but survival was introduced in indev. This game as been always the same sandbox.
Please stop with the straw man arguments. I know you're more reasonable than that, Marfig. Automation still works, and it will always work. Just because you have to slightly modify a machine, does not mean automation as a whole is broken.
Where is the strawman? Just because you say there is one, doesn't mean you are right. Especially because you didn't tell me where it is. I addressed your earlier post quite well, I believe. And you addressed none of mine, in fact. Well, other than accusing me of drawing a strawman.
And to keep addressing your points, lets address this one too. You mistaken a large portion of the complaints as objections towards a mere trifle. A non obstacle. And you associate these complaints to the fact players just want to be AFK around their machines. Let me tell you...
Most of the players who build these things, don't really use them much. It's the pleasure of building them and seeing them running for a few times that really drives them. The hoarder who collects hundreds of gold stacks is a rarity. Mostly these machines are used sporadically and to solve an immediate need. Staying AFK is not the goal of these machines. Staying AFK is one of their features and one of the most popular. And the more features these machines have, the better. The goal is full automation and the greatest efficiency, a common goal in many industries and a -- I would think -- a common source of human satisfaction.
On the other hand, many players complained not because of the actual change, but what it entailed. Had it been generally accepted by the community, this could be the beginning of the end to a playstyle some players really enjoy. More and bigger changes could then start showing up. There was a general concern that they would eventually just kill farming mechanisms. And this was too the motivation behind some of the complaints.
EDIT: I can see brabbit1987 above me already beat me to it explaining the nature of AFK and the misconceptions it draws.
I watched docm77's video on the nerf, and it seems that it allows you to get multiple stacks of iron quite easily and quickly. That's insane, it's a incredibly cheaty way to get iron or gold. If you want to use that in single player, then knock yourself out! But the problem here is that everything in SSP, carries over to SMP. That means that in highly competitive pvp servers, such as factions/pvp, or anarchy, etc, by the time I've done about an hour of mining iron, some cheaty jerk who uses an iron farm and gets that much in a mere minute or two.
That's absurd!
btw: you may want to change the title's word "repeal", to "remove". It probably confuses some people.
It's funny because server owners can make rules to outlaw iron farms so....
No offence, but I think you are really pushing it. XD
"at least 35% of people who play minecraft who are affected by this, the reason i am the only one to say something about it is because they aren't typically knowledgeable in game design, and thus don't really know why they feel certain emotions when it comes to games."
Proof? Not sure how you could possibly know this. I personally know game design .. and I hardly agree with you XD. So your argument fails with that fact. Anyone can toot their own horns saying they know this and that, but it's all just a load of crap on the internet. A little kid can say they know about game design on the net. Well besides you .. I can actually prove I work in the game industry. So go ahead and try me.
It's also pretty funny how you are speaking for apparently 35% other people who apparently are bad at telling their own emotions, but OH ... good for them .. you are here to rescue the DAY and tell them how they feel XD. This is some funny crap here.
"for instance, in any good horror game, there is a massive amount of thought put into every detail to invoke fearful emotions and tension, down to the colors of the walls, positions of broken tiles on the ground and slight patterns in how enemies walk, even the GUI with health bars and ammo displayed have an effect on emotions."
Minecraft isn't a horror game. So .. hahaha good thing we don't have to worry about that ... right?
"heck, even the small dent in the healthbars made a noticeable difference to the gameplay, typical players will never notice such details, the furthest they really tend to get to understanding why they feel a certain way is the sound of the music, or really obvious stuff like thick fog, likewise, they never notice the farms as the source of their dissatisfaction with the game and it's consistency."
What dissatisfaction? .. this game is hugely popular o.o ... numbers are against you on this bud. It's very apparent people like Minecraft the way it's been, which has included these farms for a very long time.
Let me bring up another sandbox game by the name of Garry's Mod. Back when I was a beta tester for that mod. It's a source engine mod. No set setting, no set story, just pure sandbox fun. This mod was one of the most popular created with the source engine. So much so Valve directly asked Garry if he would like to sell his mod on Steam. Not all games require immersion or extreme depth in game design. Sometimes people just want to enjoy creating things with out anyone telling them how or how they should not play, like you are currently doing.
If you are a game designer .. you are absolutely terrible at it to not recognize what others like in miencraft. Instead, you are so intent on telling them they are wrong.
"iron, enderman and blaze farms have far worse balance issues on top of what i have said."
There is no balance issues. If you feel there is balance issues. . then don't use the farms. Not a very hard thing to do.
"you are wrong, that isn't what i was saying, i was saying that it impacts everyone who plays, not just the ones who build the farms."
It isn't impacting me ... nor countless many others. Probably not even that imaginary percentage you keep making up.
As for the video you posted ... alright .. so how do you suppose one should balance minecraft, oh great and knowledgeable person?
List all the changes you would make. Then post it in a new thread with a poll and see how many vote for liking your changes. The poll should say, "would you like these changes? Yes, No, Partially."
I insist you accept this challenge. We will see how many agree with you on this. If you want .. I can even make a video on youtube and link people to your great ideas. I could also go on gameindustry.biz, where only game designers can post .. and ask there as well.
at least 35% of people who play minecraft who are affected by this, the reason i am the only one to say something about it is because they aren't typically knowledgeable in game design, and thus don't really know why they feel certain emotions when it comes to games.
The way you speak about these matters immediately betrays your lack of knowledge. It's almost pathetic your attempt at looking like an authority when in fact you sound like a newb.
And 35% is a great number. In ancient Babylon, 35 was the maximum allowed number of women in a noble's harem. Only the king was allowed more. But because the king could by law take to his own any of his noble's women -- and because ancient Babylon women were particularly beautiful -- no noble could ever reach 35 women in his harem.
35 is also the maximum number you can count in base 6 finger counting system.
But what 35% is not is a known percentage related to farms and Minecraft. You cannot just pull a number when everyone knows that there aren't any statistical studies on the matter. It really makes you look bad. Because you just demonstrated that you lie deliberately to try and make a point.
35 is a lie. Something you just invented. It's just like the story about the babylon harems I just told you. Yeah, that's a complete fabrication of mine. But I can place a large bet you were fooled by it up until this instant. Whereas your attempt at fooling anyone here, only resulted in immediate laughter.
Here's how I see it. The people who DON'T use farms, DON'T use them. The people who DO use them, go and use them.
The whole concept of removing a whole playstyle just to please the people who play differently, it absurd. That's like saying Hardcore mode should be removed because you don't like permadeath. WELL DON'T CLICK THE DANG OPTION. Minecraft is a game about OPTIONS. You choose what to do, you make up your own story. My story is that the world of Minecraft is yours for the taking. You OWN the world, and you can do whatever the heck you want. Now that's not everyone's take on it, and that is what makes the game so beautiful.
I honestly do think making automation more by "design" is the way to go. Mojang has already done things like this in the past, they could do it again.
The classic Minecart booster systems would be an example. They were in the game for as long as Minecarts and rails existed. Notch knew about them, but many people relied on them. On top of that, any small changes Notch made could have indirectly fixed or changed the booster systems, and Notch would not be obligated at all to fix it as it was a bug or unintended feature to begin with. That's one of Jeb's main grips with mob systems.
So when the bug was in jeopardy, people started suggesting rails that propel the minecraft forward if the bug was fixed. In the end, this turned out to be the solution, giving a use for gold, fixing a bug or unintended feature, but makes the player who relied on the bug happy. Mojang was obligated to fix any bugs that the new rails had, because they were an actual feature of the game.
Mob farms are kinda in the same boat. If Mojang tried, they could apply similar logic to farms. But with how complex it is compared to the booster cart situation, it could work well, or could fail miserably and everyone gets angry.
why is everyones first argument "Its not the way minecraft should be played?" i build farms, what does that have to do with anyone else? why does anyone else care.
i build farms becuase i enjoy building machines, which is exactly what some of these automated farms are. thats what minecraft is about to me. building, creation. there is a specific mode to it, creative. the game its sel is a huge sandbox, the very principle behind this kind of game is building and modification of your enviroment to fullfill your goal.
if your goal is to build a house, and decorate it how you choose, thats your goal. if you need wheat you can build a flood plain device to wash your harvest to an easy collectable location, why shouldnt that work?
you can make the argument for server play, but that should be up to the server admins to determine if they want to allow such things or ban them as a form of cheating
my iron golem farm i have built is always a device of constant improvment. Both in function but also in decor. as i have gotten better i have built in windows, secondary buildings and levels. actual stepped stair roofs, instead of a simple flat stone one.
and as far as survival goes they dont neccesarily speed up the journey to the end. afterall it can take a lot of time to build them sometimes. my iron golem farm alone took me near to 15 hours. in that time you could probaly make it to the end.build a large wheat farm, get a lot of wheat, trade it to a villager for eyes of ender and there you have it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Yes i know, my spelling sucks.
Check out my You-Tube Channel (BringerofKaos) for plenty of Minecraft Content and my Lets Play series:
I honestly do think making automation more by "design" is the way to go. Mojang has already done things like this in the past, they could do it again.
The classic Minecart booster systems would be an example. They were in the game for as long as Minecarts and rails existed. Notch knew about them, but many people relied on them. On top of that, any small changes Notch made could have indirectly fixed or changed the booster systems, and Notch would not be obligated at all to fix it as it was a bug or unintended feature to begin with. That's one of Jeb's main grips with mob systems.
So the solution was fixing the booster cart bug, but then add rails that propel the minecart forward, giving a use for gold, fixing a bug or unintended feature, but makes the player who relied on the bug happy. Mojang was obligated to fix any bugs that the new rails had, because they were an actual feature of the game.
Mob farms are kinda in the same boat. If Mojang tried, they could apply similar logic to farms. But with how complex it is compared to the booster cart situation, it could work well, or could fail miserably and everyone gets angry.
I wish I had remembered the minecart example when I was trying to make the same point. The best I could think of was how ladders lost their hitboxes for a while.
I only regret that I have but one upvote to give to this post.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Author of , Minecraft's most noteworthy Mega Man-themed resource pack!
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
Here's to hoping they nerf iron itself and/or add a new material that can't be farmed.
If Jeb is revoking the nerf because of a 1500 post long Reddit rant, then I imagine that the nerfing of iron would cause an even greater rant and Jeb would revoke it again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
XP Guide Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
The minecart mechanics were not an attempt at introducing by-design automation or answering a developer need for players to stop exploiting game mechanisms. I can understand where the example comes from, but I think its a weak example.
Minecart boosters were never considered by the developers an exploitation of the game mechanics. Boosters were the players inventive answer to the fact rails were virtually useless. Powered rails exist today as an old player requested feature. Not as a developer attempt at shaping the players' game. And powered rails follow the exact same principles delineated by players a long ago time ago when they discovered boosters.
I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think people fail to understand that the main 'sandbox' element of Minecraft has been shifted to creative mode. Survival should not be unbalanced, even if it is 'sandbox'.
I'm sad that Jeb is going to reverse the changes, but I guess that's what happens when 0.01% of the players go to reddit and yell about something they don't like.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
95% of teens would scream if Justin Beiber was about to jump of the top of the Empire State Building. If you are in the 5% that would grab a seat and some popcorn and yell JUMP! JUMP! JUMP! post this into your sig.
Well in all fairness you can't really put a percentage on that. You would need to know the exact amount of people who still play minecraft and post on the net on Reddit. The fact that Reddit had that many posts, means there was a far greater percentage of players who did not like the change.
That statement makes it sound like that not many people cared about the changes .. and if that was the case you would be very wrong.
Go on any popular youtube channel who mentioned these changes .. and get the total comments. Then get how many for and against these changes in those comments. You will be able to get a very clear picture that there are far more people bothered by the change. Nearly 75 - 80%.
Of course it wouldn't be 100% accurate to judge the entire player base on that either, but it at least gives you a general idea . it's far far greater then your 0.01%.
I personally don't mind if they nerf it, in the sense that you can't get as much. I am totally fine with that. Breaking these contraptions though is a no go to me. Breaking them by accident is ok .. that stuff happens. I just don't want them to break things purposefully. That is taking sides on how people play, and I don't like it.
Just wondering if in that statement you considered singleplayers?
I don't know about you, but -- not too often, but sometimes -- I like to play Minecraft as if I was playing TIM. I like contraptions; small, large, huge, simple,complicated, or mind blowing. Creative mode with its internal game rules of passive mobs, destroying blocks and whatnot, does not offer much more than a construction yard. So Survival is the way to go, where I build and run my huge farms and other stupid but fun contraptions.
And the next month I may get bored and want to play survival as an RPG. And next, I may want to play survival as an action game. What you are saying exactly? You are saying, I shouldn't because Survival must obey some balancing rule you can't even really explain in detail because you just know intimately that you can't balance a game like Minecraft that caters for some many gameplay styles.
Farms aren't the simplest things to make, and the work they require deserves reward.
This is not the first time Jeb speaks about it. It won't be the last time. This conversation is years old! But up until today where are those mechanisms Jeb would like to introduce? Quite frankly, he needs to shape up and look at himself and his team, before he implies that players are exploiting game mechanisms, as if it suddenly this whole farm business was misconduct and misbehavior. I find it incredibly hypocrite of him.
To anyone that has been here since the beginning, we just now. This is how the game was always played by a large and representative group of the community. Some of the most popular videos on YouTube, since well back in indev have always been about players exploring the limits of the game and its rules. It's a natural tendency for a great deal of players playing a game like this to scratch the limits of what the game can offer them. It's always been a sign of respect and admiration, a large or formidable construction that touches those limits. The first mob grinders, the first item farms have always been gladly received by the community and their authors lauded for their exploration of the game mechanics.
And now Jeb comes and implies these people are exploiting his game? The same game whose "gray" and muddy rules have been one of the major sources of fun and entertainment over the years? That he would so very often comment himself. Some of which even figured on MInecraft website during the early days when Notch used to post the work of players? Jeb, the same person that in all these years never even once introduced a game mechanism that could replace these things he is so unhappy about? I don't even!...
None of that is being removed; Jeb simply tried to balance those machines. There is no good reason for a player to get ludicrously large amounts of iron and gold with such little effort. You can say "well I want to play that way". Just because somebody wants a dupe glitch to remain, for example, does not mean it's justification to not fix it.
Minecraft is no longer the same sandbox; it hasn't been since they added survival. There are two modes for a reason; creative for people who want to create without any challenge, and survival, for people who want to create with challenge.
Please stop with the straw man arguments. I know you're more reasonable than that, Marfig. Automation still works, and it will always work. Just because you have to slightly modify a machine, does not mean automation as a whole is broken.
I think this could be easily solved (for everybody who wants this change and for those who do not) by adding: /gamerule autodrops. You could toggle whether or not mobs would drop their rare drops with/without the player making the finishing blow.
Change comes, and people wave it away because they'd rather sit AFK for hours while the game plays itself. Then they argue that automation as they know it has been removed; which it total bullcrap. This is just more of the same old crap from the community; change comes, and everybody moans because it's not the change they wanted.
I'll say this one more time, not that it matters anymore, because those who are oblivious will only continue to ignore it:
Farms still work. Completely and totally. All you have to do is stop being AFK long enough to make a few adjustments, and maybe stab a few mobs every once in a while.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
I have to first point out much of what you say is entirely untrue and you are over exaggerating a bit. I use these farms, and I rarely AFK at them. I go about building other things, or I go mining or exploring. These machines also don't just pop up out of no where. You have to work to build it. In most cases, the materials you need to build it, take a lot of time to gather. It's almost like you have never watched a youtuber. Nearly all of them build these farms .. yet they some how manage to have channels that are super popular because they BUILD things. If they simply AFKed all the time .. they wouldn't be popular . .now would they?
The argument that we should jsut play on creative is old. It's stupid, and really makes no sense to use as an argument. In one case, you work for your resources, and the other you do not. Huge difference. Also, don't go and say people who use farms don't work for it, because they certainly do. Again . .these farms don't simply magically appear.
"I think this could be easily solved (for everybody who wants this change and for those who do not) by adding: /gamerule autodrops. You could toggle whether or not mobs would drop their rare drops with/without the player making the finishing blow."
For those who don't like mob farms, why would you need a gamerule to stop you from doing it, if you don't do it to begin with? That is the whole point of why this entire argument started is because it doesn't effect you all. It only effected us. Those who think mob farms shouldn't be used ... where not effected by this change at all because they don't use them. Adding a gamerule or not will not change this.
Ok sure .. it could be useful to enforce it on SMP servers that don't like them .. but they could just as easily enforce it manually just as they always have right? I never assumed this was an issue because no one ever really mentioned it.
Anyway, beyond all of this .. you may ask .. "If you don't AFK .. why do you care so much of this change?" My simple answer is because it's no longer fully automatic. I don't want to have to go back and fourth just clear out a farm when I am working on some other major project. I have to do that enough with other farms as it is that are not fully automatic. I honestly felt the farms have had a very good balance between automatic and semi automatic.
The issue with you .. is you raise so many assumptions on the way people play, even when those assumptions are far from the truth. Why do you do this? Because it makes your crappy argument look better.
Excuse me, but survival was introduced in indev. This game as been always the same sandbox.
Where is the strawman? Just because you say there is one, doesn't mean you are right. Especially because you didn't tell me where it is. I addressed your earlier post quite well, I believe. And you addressed none of mine, in fact. Well, other than accusing me of drawing a strawman.
And to keep addressing your points, lets address this one too. You mistaken a large portion of the complaints as objections towards a mere trifle. A non obstacle. And you associate these complaints to the fact players just want to be AFK around their machines. Let me tell you...
Most of the players who build these things, don't really use them much. It's the pleasure of building them and seeing them running for a few times that really drives them. The hoarder who collects hundreds of gold stacks is a rarity. Mostly these machines are used sporadically and to solve an immediate need. Staying AFK is not the goal of these machines. Staying AFK is one of their features and one of the most popular. And the more features these machines have, the better. The goal is full automation and the greatest efficiency, a common goal in many industries and a -- I would think -- a common source of human satisfaction.
On the other hand, many players complained not because of the actual change, but what it entailed. Had it been generally accepted by the community, this could be the beginning of the end to a playstyle some players really enjoy. More and bigger changes could then start showing up. There was a general concern that they would eventually just kill farming mechanisms. And this was too the motivation behind some of the complaints.
EDIT: I can see brabbit1987 above me already beat me to it explaining the nature of AFK and the misconceptions it draws.
It's funny because server owners can make rules to outlaw iron farms so....
Well, considering the amount of lag they create now, that is to be expected. Good point.
No offence, but I think you are really pushing it. XD
"at least 35% of people who play minecraft who are affected by this, the reason i am the only one to say something about it is because they aren't typically knowledgeable in game design, and thus don't really know why they feel certain emotions when it comes to games."
Proof? Not sure how you could possibly know this. I personally know game design .. and I hardly agree with you XD. So your argument fails with that fact. Anyone can toot their own horns saying they know this and that, but it's all just a load of crap on the internet. A little kid can say they know about game design on the net. Well besides you .. I can actually prove I work in the game industry. So go ahead and try me.
It's also pretty funny how you are speaking for apparently 35% other people who apparently are bad at telling their own emotions, but OH ... good for them .. you are here to rescue the DAY and tell them how they feel XD. This is some funny crap here.
"for instance, in any good horror game, there is a massive amount of thought put into every detail to invoke fearful emotions and tension, down to the colors of the walls, positions of broken tiles on the ground and slight patterns in how enemies walk, even the GUI with health bars and ammo displayed have an effect on emotions."
Minecraft isn't a horror game. So .. hahaha good thing we don't have to worry about that ... right?
"heck, even the small dent in the healthbars made a noticeable difference to the gameplay, typical players will never notice such details, the furthest they really tend to get to understanding why they feel a certain way is the sound of the music, or really obvious stuff like thick fog, likewise, they never notice the farms as the source of their dissatisfaction with the game and it's consistency."
What dissatisfaction? .. this game is hugely popular o.o ... numbers are against you on this bud. It's very apparent people like Minecraft the way it's been, which has included these farms for a very long time.
Let me bring up another sandbox game by the name of Garry's Mod. Back when I was a beta tester for that mod. It's a source engine mod. No set setting, no set story, just pure sandbox fun. This mod was one of the most popular created with the source engine. So much so Valve directly asked Garry if he would like to sell his mod on Steam. Not all games require immersion or extreme depth in game design. Sometimes people just want to enjoy creating things with out anyone telling them how or how they should not play, like you are currently doing.
If you are a game designer .. you are absolutely terrible at it to not recognize what others like in miencraft. Instead, you are so intent on telling them they are wrong.
"iron, enderman and blaze farms have far worse balance issues on top of what i have said."
There is no balance issues. If you feel there is balance issues. . then don't use the farms. Not a very hard thing to do.
"you are wrong, that isn't what i was saying, i was saying that it impacts everyone who plays, not just the ones who build the farms."
It isn't impacting me ... nor countless many others. Probably not even that imaginary percentage you keep making up.
As for the video you posted ... alright .. so how do you suppose one should balance minecraft, oh great and knowledgeable person?
List all the changes you would make. Then post it in a new thread with a poll and see how many vote for liking your changes. The poll should say, "would you like these changes? Yes, No, Partially."
I insist you accept this challenge. We will see how many agree with you on this. If you want .. I can even make a video on youtube and link people to your great ideas. I could also go on gameindustry.biz, where only game designers can post .. and ask there as well.
Wanna give it a try?
The way you speak about these matters immediately betrays your lack of knowledge. It's almost pathetic your attempt at looking like an authority when in fact you sound like a newb.
And 35% is a great number. In ancient Babylon, 35 was the maximum allowed number of women in a noble's harem. Only the king was allowed more. But because the king could by law take to his own any of his noble's women -- and because ancient Babylon women were particularly beautiful -- no noble could ever reach 35 women in his harem.
35 is also the maximum number you can count in base 6 finger counting system.
But what 35% is not is a known percentage related to farms and Minecraft. You cannot just pull a number when everyone knows that there aren't any statistical studies on the matter. It really makes you look bad. Because you just demonstrated that you lie deliberately to try and make a point.
35 is a lie. Something you just invented. It's just like the story about the babylon harems I just told you. Yeah, that's a complete fabrication of mine. But I can place a large bet you were fooled by it up until this instant. Whereas your attempt at fooling anyone here, only resulted in immediate laughter.
The whole concept of removing a whole playstyle just to please the people who play differently, it absurd. That's like saying Hardcore mode should be removed because you don't like permadeath. WELL DON'T CLICK THE DANG OPTION. Minecraft is a game about OPTIONS. You choose what to do, you make up your own story. My story is that the world of Minecraft is yours for the taking. You OWN the world, and you can do whatever the heck you want. Now that's not everyone's take on it, and that is what makes the game so beautiful.
The classic Minecart booster systems would be an example. They were in the game for as long as Minecarts and rails existed. Notch knew about them, but many people relied on them. On top of that, any small changes Notch made could have indirectly fixed or changed the booster systems, and Notch would not be obligated at all to fix it as it was a bug or unintended feature to begin with. That's one of Jeb's main grips with mob systems.
So when the bug was in jeopardy, people started suggesting rails that propel the minecraft forward if the bug was fixed. In the end, this turned out to be the solution, giving a use for gold, fixing a bug or unintended feature, but makes the player who relied on the bug happy. Mojang was obligated to fix any bugs that the new rails had, because they were an actual feature of the game.
Mob farms are kinda in the same boat. If Mojang tried, they could apply similar logic to farms. But with how complex it is compared to the booster cart situation, it could work well, or could fail miserably and everyone gets angry.
i build farms becuase i enjoy building machines, which is exactly what some of these automated farms are. thats what minecraft is about to me. building, creation. there is a specific mode to it, creative. the game its sel is a huge sandbox, the very principle behind this kind of game is building and modification of your enviroment to fullfill your goal.
if your goal is to build a house, and decorate it how you choose, thats your goal. if you need wheat you can build a flood plain device to wash your harvest to an easy collectable location, why shouldnt that work?
you can make the argument for server play, but that should be up to the server admins to determine if they want to allow such things or ban them as a form of cheating
my iron golem farm i have built is always a device of constant improvment. Both in function but also in decor. as i have gotten better i have built in windows, secondary buildings and levels. actual stepped stair roofs, instead of a simple flat stone one.
and as far as survival goes they dont neccesarily speed up the journey to the end. afterall it can take a lot of time to build them sometimes. my iron golem farm alone took me near to 15 hours. in that time you could probaly make it to the end.build a large wheat farm, get a lot of wheat, trade it to a villager for eyes of ender and there you have it.
I wish I had remembered the minecart example when I was trying to make the same point. The best I could think of was how ladders lost their hitboxes for a while.
I only regret that I have but one upvote to give to this post.
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
If Jeb is revoking the nerf because of a 1500 post long Reddit rant, then I imagine that the nerfing of iron would cause an even greater rant and Jeb would revoke it again.
Regardless of what change you do, no matter how small, someone will complain. - Jens Bergensten
If you want me to see your reply, make sure to quote my post in your reply.
Minecart boosters were never considered by the developers an exploitation of the game mechanics. Boosters were the players inventive answer to the fact rails were virtually useless. Powered rails exist today as an old player requested feature. Not as a developer attempt at shaping the players' game. And powered rails follow the exact same principles delineated by players a long ago time ago when they discovered boosters.