First off, why do people tie experience with runescape???? I can name 50+ games with experience points (i don't want list them take too much time, as well as I don't want to make this a long boring list). Hunger is there to make the game more of a survival game. hence "Survival Mode".
As well as experience, you don't need to use it. I am sorry if little balls annoy you. Don't use that system. Leave it.
Sorry you will never experience snowman or the new nether.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
::Quote from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
I love well thought out and well written persuasive posts like this. They help me believe there might be some intellect left in humanity after all.
Are you talking about the part where his argument in the beginning immediately reduced from empty "political-correctness" style defense to where he actually stated his full argument in one simple sentence which was no deeper than "Because they ****ing suck." ?
"Minecraft is about harvesting materials and building awesome ****." Minecraft is what you make of it. It is quite possibly the most versatile game on the market in recent years in terms of gameplay, replay value, and customizability via the modding community. If you just want to build "awesome ****", play creative. If you want to harvest and build play on peaceful. The survival mode is aptly named, particularly with the addition of hunger.
I don't really agree with TC's rant, since I don't really mind the new 1.8 stuff, Enderman griefing aside.
Your comment, however, started out valid enough, but you shot it down yourself.
Yes, Minecraft is what you make of it, and that's why it's so wonderful. However, 1.8 adds some stuff that starts to penalize some types of players. Namely, players like me or the TC, who LOVE TO HARVEST MATERIALS AND BUILD AWESOME ****. Please spare me the "creative/peaceful" ********. Creative isn't playing Minecraft the way I like it. Peaceful isn't playing Minecraft the way I like it either. I want my mobs around. I want danger. I want to mine for my stuff, and smile like an excited little kid when I find something rare like diamonds or random pumpkins in an uncharted forest. What I don't want is to spend so much of my time doing tedious, repetitive farming when I don't want to, or have Enderman destroy those pretty things I spent so much time creating.
So you're basically saying that Minecraft is what we make of it, but if what we make of it isn't what YOU do, then it's silly?
I already know what many of you are planning to say. Before you read any further, take note of this very important fact: I do not fear change, I do not hate change, and I believe that the overwhelming majority of changes to the game since its creation - including 90% of changes in 1.8 - have been for the better. People who come in here and post stupid **** about change in general, rather than discussing the specific changes that this thread is about, will be added to my list of people who have confirmed themselves to be retards.
In a similar vein, anyone who says "it's Notch's game, he can do whatever he wants with it" will be added to the same list. I am not saying that it's "our" game and Notch had no right to make these changes. I am saying that the changes are stupid.
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With that out of the way, I'm going to discuss the two changes that have absolutely killed whatever good would have come from the 1.8 patch: hunger and experience.
If you looked at the servers that existed from Beta 1.0 to 1.7, you'd have noticed that almost none of them used hunger plugins. Why? Because most people hated them. Why did people hate them? Because they ****ing suck. They serve no purpose whatsoever except to increase the "realism" of a game that gets almost all of its charm from its lack thereof. This is a game where trees have square-shaped trunks, mountains float in midair, ice blocks can survive in a desert indefinitely without melting, pumpkins grow with faces already carved into them, you can crush sand into sandstone with your bare hands, and Al Qaeda recruits walking cacti. At what point was it decided that the game's worst departure from reality was that you weren't playing Oregon ****ing Trail? Look, the whole "get damaged -> pick up food -> get healed instantly; never take damage -> never need to eat" system has been in computer games since the eighties and still lives on in games like Bioshock. With exceptions that Shia LaBeouf can count on what remains of his left hand, the industry has never made any attempt to introduce hunger into any of their games for the same reason why they never introduced sleeping or going to the bathroom: it's a pointless waste of everybody's time and does nothing but annoy the player. If I want to play a game where I have to worry about eating and sleeping and pissing and brushing my teeth and doing my laundry and getting regular prostate exams, I'll play The Sims, or just log off and rejoin the real world (note: although beds and sleeping have existed in Minecraft for a while, they exist solely for the purpose of skipping nighttime, and there is neither a "sleepiness bar" nor any negative effects from being awake 24/7). And to all of you who say "it makes the game more challenging", I have news for you. First of all, "more challenging" is not synonymous with "better", and secondly, the game has had an adjustable difficulty setting for a very, very long time.
On the subject of experience, again, it looks like the Runescape/Mabinogi/Rappelz crowd is ruining the party for the rest of us. Again, at what point was it decided that the game's biggest flaw was that it wasn't Dungeons & Dragons? The fastest way to get me to leave a server is to start running MCMMO or some other leveling-up ********. Look, I have nothing against RPGs. I'm actually a recovering Diablo addict. However, Diablo is not Minecraft. Diablo is about slaying endless hordes of hellspawned demons. Minecraft is about harvesting materials and building awesome ****, and if you want to make things more "interesting", you can let hostile monsters roam around and try to kill you, and you can try to defend yourself from them. By introducing "experience", Minecraft has ceased to be about harvesting resources and building awesome ****, and is now about slaying endless hordes of hellspawned demons so you can collect Dragon Balls to increase your power level until it's over nine thousand. **** that.
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Anyway... with that having been said, there is one thing about 1.8 that I am grateful for above all else: when I log in to minecraft.net, I'm given the option of updating instead of being forced to update.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion! The reason why Notch supports mods and prevents auto-updating is so that you can still play the game the way you want even as he narrows certain aspects of it by following his vision of what the game should be.
One should not feel that one's way of playing being 'vanilla' supported makes it 'valid' whereas if you have to use a mod your play is 'invalid'; if Notch supports mods (which he does as much as he can) it means while he has a specific vision for the game, you are still free to play it as you wish.
By making it so you can build better swords that do more damage, and better armor so that you take less damage, and make mushroom stew which stacks and is better for regaining health during fighting, there already was a level up system in place. Just because it wasn't called experience orbs does not mean that 1.7.3 does not have rpg elements. You don't even know what the exp is for or have to use it, so your point in that vein about why you will play 1.7.3 but not 1.8 is moot.
You did not explain why hunger doesn't work as a gameplay element. You claim that it only exists to make the game realistic. If that were so, how come you regain health when hunger is full? That's not exactly realistic. How come you can carry 64 piece of steak without falling over from the weight? That's not realistic either. Hunger makes food and cooking more important, while limited animal spawns make either future breeding of them, or farming/fishing important. Many of these elements, such as farming wheat, were merely cosmetic, and did not really benefit the game design at all. Hunger makes more elements of the game actually work together.
That you don't like hunger is valid but your points against it are not.
I think you and others with your viewpoints would be happier to continue to upgrade but use mods to further customize the elements so that everything is as it should be. It would be a shame to miss out on some of the additions in 1.8 and 1.9 just because you don't like some of the features that can fairly easily be modded out.
Although of course there is no problem if you want to keep playing 1.7.3. It's still around :smile.gif:
Well, I'll agree that experience shouldn't be here... but only because it has no use yet. Once it has a use I will have no issue with it. I can imagine it having great modding potential as well. As for hunger, I like it. Sure, it would be nice if there was a food that could restore hearts in a pinch, but I like that farming is more useful now and I don't find it a difficult task to remember to eat a piece of bread now and again.
I agreed with every point you made. I read through a few other's posts as well just to see if there were any other intelligent remarks, but nay. Apart from what you stated, another thing that is driving away players is the community. Fanboys, mostly aged 12-18, who jump at the chance to scream whenever someone makes a valid argument on the forums sucks.
It's like the old, Mac vs. PC vs. Linux argument.
I love how people complain about hunger, but yet I can usually round up around 10-15 meat in a good 2-3 minutes and survive off that for a few minecraft weeks without an issue. By then, I usually have a big wheat farm going and plenty of wheat for bread and cake to spare me for quite a long time.
What part of "survival" mode involves never needing to eat? You also mentioned how hunger is "realistic" and that we don't need realism, but i would counter with that it is not very realistic because you can go days on a stack of 5 steaks and never have to worry about getting into fights or watching your hunger go down. I've seen for myself that if you eat a steak or anything else just as your hunger bar begins to go down that it seems to extend beyond the cap, and in doing so we can last much longer than usual. That little fact, coupled with the stacking food makes hunger a non-issue and hardly something to get upset over.
Experience:
You claim that its introduction just turns this game into an rpg where you are forced to grind monsters. And you are WRONG >_> Ignore monsters, ignore experience, it will not change your game. If you managed to gain zero experience points from the moment you created your map until now, how would it be any different than if there simply were no levels to achieve?
Or are you just mad because you'll have to get the experience to gain levels to get whatever "perks" notch implements? If so, get over it, being level one will not negatively impact your game whatsoever, while getting level 9billion will hopefully come with a few nice perks, but nothing worth "grinding for hours and hours" to achieve :tongue.gif:
Just look as hunger as a new way of regenerating health and adding to the feel of "surviving". Then look at experience as an added bonus for you to slowly build up as you play, it won't hurt you to not have it, but it sure will be nice when you hit level 20 and can suddenly run a little faster or something :tongue.gif: Little perks for the players are a good thing.
I agree. When playing Super Hostile Maps, Such a slow regen rate ain't gonna help. The food stack was awesome but Hunger? Really? Minecraft Will NEVER become an RPG. If notch wants EXP go play WOW then. The only reason im playing this because Minecraft is DIFFERENT. I like to eat without worrying about hunger and crap. Plus, EXp is Totally USELESS. Kill mobs and get EXP, whats the point? To brag? go play WOW. And we can't even see our level.
Notch, Stop implementing useless stuff just to fill up the update list. We like the original MInecraft!
There are points to agree with, and points to consider may be fleshed out in another beta release.
I won't swing either way until I know for certain what items are there for novelty and what will be added onto and improved. Perhaps what already existing items may be given a function other than decoration...
My skepticism and my enthusiasm are both curbed for the moment. I'm neutral and on the fence.
Alright man, you made some good points in that post, but the name of the game mode IS survival. It does make it more challenging. The game is too easy even on the hard difficulty. Getting hungry and needing to eat or else you die seems to fit the survival theme. As for experience, you can pretty much ignore it at the moment. It doesn't even keep track of how many times you've leveled up.
As well as experience, you don't need to use it. I am sorry if little balls annoy you. Don't use that system. Leave it.
Sorry you will never experience snowman or the new nether.
Conversation has moved to this thread people.
::Quote from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
Are you talking about the part where his argument in the beginning immediately reduced from empty "political-correctness" style defense to where he actually stated his full argument in one simple sentence which was no deeper than "Because they ****ing suck." ?
Well then...
I don't really agree with TC's rant, since I don't really mind the new 1.8 stuff, Enderman griefing aside.
Your comment, however, started out valid enough, but you shot it down yourself.
Yes, Minecraft is what you make of it, and that's why it's so wonderful. However, 1.8 adds some stuff that starts to penalize some types of players. Namely, players like me or the TC, who LOVE TO HARVEST MATERIALS AND BUILD AWESOME ****. Please spare me the "creative/peaceful" ********. Creative isn't playing Minecraft the way I like it. Peaceful isn't playing Minecraft the way I like it either. I want my mobs around. I want danger. I want to mine for my stuff, and smile like an excited little kid when I find something rare like diamonds or random pumpkins in an uncharted forest. What I don't want is to spend so much of my time doing tedious, repetitive farming when I don't want to, or have Enderman destroy those pretty things I spent so much time creating.
So you're basically saying that Minecraft is what we make of it, but if what we make of it isn't what YOU do, then it's silly?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion! The reason why Notch supports mods and prevents auto-updating is so that you can still play the game the way you want even as he narrows certain aspects of it by following his vision of what the game should be.
One should not feel that one's way of playing being 'vanilla' supported makes it 'valid' whereas if you have to use a mod your play is 'invalid'; if Notch supports mods (which he does as much as he can) it means while he has a specific vision for the game, you are still free to play it as you wish.
You did not explain why hunger doesn't work as a gameplay element. You claim that it only exists to make the game realistic. If that were so, how come you regain health when hunger is full? That's not exactly realistic. How come you can carry 64 piece of steak without falling over from the weight? That's not realistic either. Hunger makes food and cooking more important, while limited animal spawns make either future breeding of them, or farming/fishing important. Many of these elements, such as farming wheat, were merely cosmetic, and did not really benefit the game design at all. Hunger makes more elements of the game actually work together.
That you don't like hunger is valid but your points against it are not.
I think you and others with your viewpoints would be happier to continue to upgrade but use mods to further customize the elements so that everything is as it should be. It would be a shame to miss out on some of the additions in 1.8 and 1.9 just because you don't like some of the features that can fairly easily be modded out.
Although of course there is no problem if you want to keep playing 1.7.3. It's still around :smile.gif:
Anyway, enjoy 1.7.3.
It's like the old, Mac vs. PC vs. Linux argument.
TC knows what's up though
What part of "survival" mode involves never needing to eat? You also mentioned how hunger is "realistic" and that we don't need realism, but i would counter with that it is not very realistic because you can go days on a stack of 5 steaks and never have to worry about getting into fights or watching your hunger go down. I've seen for myself that if you eat a steak or anything else just as your hunger bar begins to go down that it seems to extend beyond the cap, and in doing so we can last much longer than usual. That little fact, coupled with the stacking food makes hunger a non-issue and hardly something to get upset over.
Experience:
You claim that its introduction just turns this game into an rpg where you are forced to grind monsters. And you are WRONG >_> Ignore monsters, ignore experience, it will not change your game. If you managed to gain zero experience points from the moment you created your map until now, how would it be any different than if there simply were no levels to achieve?
Or are you just mad because you'll have to get the experience to gain levels to get whatever "perks" notch implements? If so, get over it, being level one will not negatively impact your game whatsoever, while getting level 9billion will hopefully come with a few nice perks, but nothing worth "grinding for hours and hours" to achieve :tongue.gif:
Just look as hunger as a new way of regenerating health and adding to the feel of "surviving". Then look at experience as an added bonus for you to slowly build up as you play, it won't hurt you to not have it, but it sure will be nice when you hit level 20 and can suddenly run a little faster or something :tongue.gif: Little perks for the players are a good thing.
off topic but your sig scared the **** out of me for a sec
Notch, Stop implementing useless stuff just to fill up the update list. We like the original MInecraft!
I won't swing either way until I know for certain what items are there for novelty and what will be added onto and improved. Perhaps what already existing items may be given a function other than decoration...
My skepticism and my enthusiasm are both curbed for the moment. I'm neutral and on the fence.
after EVERY SINGLE UPDATE someone complains that it has destroyed minecraft for them. sorry but noone cares...go cry about it.
I think you're overreacting.