Now, in regards to experience, I have to disagree with you. Does an RPG have you lose all of your experience upon death? Like I have said a couple times before, I extremely doubt that there will be anything close to a skill tree, imagine picking skills with each life. I have also said this before, but imagine (or at least I imagine EXP to be this way in MC) experience like killstreaks in CoD. You get temporarily rewarded for surviving a barrage of creepers, skeletons, and zombies. It isn't for grinding mobs for 4 hours.
notch has already said that you will get skills based on leveling. Now you are right on the losing experience when you die. There is no game that does that....but this is not like any game come out before...it is much more. I don't know how notch and jeb will handle it in the future updates, but I am sure it will be balanced and work fine. I have no doubts.
...Have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? NetHack? Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? Angband? Each of those games have elements from (or are) RPGS and elaborate, if tedious, level-up and skill system. Oh yeah, and when you die, you lose everything; roll up a new character and start over.
Don't count off the prospect of an extensive skill branch in Minecraft just yet. After all, this is a game in which you can risk losing just about everything else if you died very far off from your spawn point. And since Notch inspiration for his early design choices for Minecraft came from Dwarf Fortress... I'll cut the speculation here.
Also, I would like to restate my thoughts on hunger. Currently, it influences the start game strongly in a bad way, by forcing you to either get lucky and/or perform tedious tasks to survive. Here's what happens in the start game. If you:
- start in the ocean biome with no tree in sight, you're gonna starve.
- start in the desert or snow biome, and don't see a single tree nor animal in sight, you're going to have an extremely difficult and arduous time surviving.
- start in any environment without animals nor both types of mushrooms in sight, you'll have to dedicate a good amount of time to farming before you could do anything else of actual interest without taking serious risks.
- start with either an abundance of animals, both types of mushrooms in sight, or in the mushroom biome, then praise the gods! It's gonna be a long time before food concerns you, and/or (in the case of mushrooms) you're free to roam around as much as you want once you collect once you get some bonemeal.
EDIT:
I think, this complaint and many other's complaint is based on preconceived notions of what a game should be. There is no definition of whether this is a sandbox exploration world or RPG or mix. Notch never states or defines the game. Some of you see it as a Sandbox exploration game and find any aspects added that lend towards RPG as a threat to the game. Some find the RPG aspects added in not the same as other RPGs (preconceived notion) and thus find it a threat to what you believe an RPG should be like.
Well, although the OP certainly was complaining, even that's not without it's merits. We both and several others agree that hunger doesn't work very well as is, and that XP/leveling is something we could do without. Now, XP/leveling is much too rooted to personal preference, so there's really little argument there. But I'm sure that I'm not the only one around here that thinks that hunger, or something else in the game, could use adjustment to make it work well.
OP has some very valid points, many of which I can agree with. When did Minecraft decide to leave "Awesome Sandbox Game" territory and venture out into "Sh!tty RPG Wannabe" territory. Don't get me wrong I also like RPG games, but if I wanted to play an RPG game I would go play Oblivion for another 300+ hours. The direction Minecraft is going is going to alienate a LOT of old time players who have been around since the beginning of this game. Its a real shame.
I agree with you completely. The food is annoying as hell, especially when you're starting out, because at the same time Notch made it take twice as long to kill a pig with your fist and made it so they run away when you hit them AND make us accidentally sprint when trying to run towards them, further depleting our already defective hunger bars. Same goes for XP: MC is a building game, not a stupid RPG. I only play survival because I like to kill mobs and collect my own stuff to build with. I don't want stupid XP or food in it. I don't know where he got those ideas from, but they are not a welcome addition.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Check out my Bukkit plugins, EatWheat, Film Maker and Drug Dealer!
You make it sound so dramatic. It's not that big of a deal. Thats why they made creative mode so you can build without watching your health or hunger. You should make a back up of 1.7 and try out 1.8 and if you don't like it change it back. Have fun in 1.7. most of us will be moving on.
First off, it sucks in multiplayer servers because if someone dies, the world then lags the **** up because the person sometimes drops the 50 billion exp orbs they had. (Nobody better say "they fixed that" because they did not. It is still a problem on the server that I host. And yes, Minecraft is fully updated so I am not missing a recent patch.) Despite that annoyance with experience orbs, which I hope to God is fixed sometime soon, the experience can make it easier for you to collect the resources needed to build awesome ****.
I haven't read around much, but I THINK the experience is eventually going to go to things like being able to mine faster, deal more damage...maybe...and so on. So it isn't really becoming an RPG; they are just making a way for it to be faster for you to get more and more materials to make yo awesome ****.
I completely understand what you are saying and where you are coming from though in your original post.
I prefer to have the game play out as a survival game with building aspects. I like everything I build to serve some purpose in my survival. Other people prefer to play it as a building game with survival aspects.
I like the hunger bar, it adds to the immersion and creates a new resource management but I see how it could annoy people. It still needs tweaking though, food can be too hard to come across when starting a new world and ends up being too abundant after a short while.
Creative mode was put in to 1.8 to cater for how people play the game differently but it doesnt quite fill the gap. The best option I can see here is to add that survival difficulty bar that was talked about (Forgot source). At the low end of the bar, the game would play out most like creative but without the flying and block selector. At the high end, the game would play out with a survival focus. Mob difficulty would be a seperate scale.
I would prefer a huge list of settings though that can be applied to the world (Void fog, mob spawn rate, mob difficulty, hunger rate etc). Unless that gets implemented, people will have to make do with building in survival with hunger or creative with unlimited blocks.
Survival mode isn't about avoiding death. It's about harvesting resources and building cool **** while there are things in the map that can kill you. If you just want to survive and do nothing else, then dig yourself a hole, cover it up, and never do anything in MC ever again. Yay! You're winning!
Not if you want to actually play a game. I don't think it's right that you speak for a whole community.
Perhaps a chunk of it, but not everyone.
I very much enjoy the new update, personally. I have no problem with it either. Yes, having more challenge is fun [although you seem to hate the concept of people mentioning it], but it also adds some diversity to the game. There are more things to do, there are more strategic ways of thinking to get resources, and fighting, to build this "cool ****".
The only problem I've actually had with the update would be that the Endermen are unavoidable, in respects to destruction. Other than that, it's all groovy.
Experience orbs wouldn't matter, if you want to play Minecraft the same old anyway. What obligations do you have to grind and only destroy demons vs. building things?
If one wants to gain XP, they may fight mobs. If one wants to build, they may gain resources and build. if one wants a mix of both, that is possible too. I see no wall here stopping anyone from doing either.
Also, if there is a problem with hunger, then Easy mode may be the answer, or possibly peaceful or creative.
Please elaborate why the hunger is an issue, further please. I don't fully understand.
Once you get a couple chunks of food you're good for quite some time. It actually seems to help with skirmishes, too.
The hunger bar adds to the game, rather than takes away. It doesn't bother you for loads of time.
On top of that, I'm positive there are mods that are able to take away hunger, and XP altogether. In which, noting that 1.8 just came out, they should be relatively easy to locate.
Even I, who has a problem with Enderman, am able to find a mod solution if the problem will remain as is.
But as I said, could you please just elaborate a few points?
OP has some very valid points, many of which I can agree with. When did Minecraft decide to leave "Awesome Sandbox Game" territory and venture out into "Sh!tty RPG Wannabe" territory. Don't get me wrong I also like RPG games, but if I wanted to play an RPG game I would go play Oblivion for another 300+ hours. The direction Minecraft is going is going to alienate a LOT of old time players who have been around since the beginning of this game. Its a real shame.
I've been playing since Alpha 1.17 or something like that. And 1.8 was supposed to breathe some new life into the game, but Notch really pushed it out too early and left some features unfinished and simply didn't work on every last detailt enough and refine them perfectly. And the second he did that, it was ****.
Your rant on experience is almost entirely based off of assumptions. Minecraft is going in the direction of a rougelike. There are some RPG elements, but stats are usually only temporary. Hunger and healing has changed dramatically, I wouldn't say for the better or worse though. Hunger in Minecraft is not just some annoying task, it directly influences how much HP you can heal, and that's where healing has changed in this update.
Minecraft is not just a building game. It's not up to you to dictate what kind of game it is.
And I wish people would drop the entire "realism" argument. Things are not added to the game to either appeal to realism or to non-realism. For the most part, things are added because they contribute something worthwhile. Hunger is added because it's familiar. Everybody knows what it is and how to solve it. Same thing with gravity. Great games have a balance between fictional and realism...
And I don't know why people are always stating they won't play the next version. We get these kinds of threads every time Minecraft updates. It's annoying and it's such a typical way to rebel against an update you don't like.
hunger: Do you really find it THAT hard? just kill some monsters and harvest some bread, or grow lot's off mushrooms. My main concern about hunger is that it's too easy....
xp orbs: Yes, it does have xp in its name but that doesn't mean It's trying to act like other games. Just the fact that you loose your xp when you die, and people who kill you can get all your xp makes minecraft really survival, after so long...
I agree with you entirely. The hunger system is better left as a mod and experience should not be in the game period. Another point I would like to add is that Notch has added experience to the game, meanwhile forgetting that the game already has achievements which are few. I would much rather have 10 more achievements than experience added to the game. If you want to get experience and level up, play Runescape. You should realize that gaining experience becomes repetitive, mindless, and boring very soon(once again, Runescape). What Notch should do is simply work on optimizing the game before adding more useless content.
DON'T EVEN COMPARE THAT CRAPPY JOKE OF A GRIND BOT FILLED HELL HOLE TO MINECRAFT.
Anyway's, you really don't need to whine on the forums if you dont like 1.8 dont update no need to whine, and lord forbid if a game was *gasp* made harder.
I thought hunger would suck - but you get more food from animals and almost all food stacks now (YAY!) so it's not even close to bad.
New combat like the bows is pretty sweet.
the only thing hunger really does is stop you from "running" all the time (W twice quickly, and hold it) can't run when at 3 hunger or lower.
On easy mode, being starving drops you half life (if you were full) but won't kill you if you weren't (down to 1 heart)
Hard it can kill you, but honestly the game is rough enough on normal for most gamers to be happy so there's no real need (or benefit...) from making things rougher for yourself.
Experience will be wonderful with skills - it destroys some plugins (which is a good thing - the more plugins a server runs, the worse off everything gets, like lag)
Don't like it, don't have to play, but honestly I think your just being a bit thick.
Everything you stated is indeed true. I hate the hunger bar too, but I can bare with 1.8 so it must not bother me nearly as much as you.
As for the experience, I like the idea. It isn't forcing you to go grind for levels, it's just another addition to the game. I'm looking at it simply as more bang for your buck.
Yeah because in a Beta version of a game, we expect every single feature to be final and unimproved for all eternity. So what you see in 1.8 now will NEVER be fixed or improved.
Good luck in 1.7.3 though, it's a worthy alternative :smile.gif:
As for being serious though, Hunger and Experience aren't conceptually bad - it always and completely depends on how they're actually being implemented. If you think otherwise, then that's your opinion ofc, but I think you should look more into the potentials rather than judging it solely on how it currently works in Minecraft. I can think of numerous scenarios where Hunger works perfectly.
Also, the Hunger system in Fallout New Vegas was praised for it's somewhat solid implementation, and we all know Experience as being a crucial part of many games out there that aren't just RPGs (and it's not always called "experience" but it's practically identical to it).
That said, I agree that the current Hunger system is broken, but I'm sure Mojang is fully aware of this. So instead of ditching the current version, I'm rather gonna wait and see what happens in 1.9 and 1.10 of the game. OR Minecraft 1.0 official release, once it comes out.
Here's something curious, since I think the exact Opposite of you, doesn't that mean we both have negated each other? And it's all dependent on the popular opinion? Gee I wonder what that is?
ANYWAYS it's really not much of a big deal, you leaving* that is, I couldn't care less about these "I'm leaving*, and OH YEAH here's WHY" threads, which seems to be guaranteed after every update. You're not some titan in the community who holds the populous opinion on his/her shoulders, I never understand why worthless complaints like these need to be posted.
As for your main points of argument on hunger, I'm not exactly sure how you were able to survey the entirety of people in existence if they downloaded the hunger plugins in the past . . . must of been tough work I'm sure.
Would I have downloaded a hunger mod before this update? (If I actually knew it existed) Probably not, since I don't care much for things not made by mojang, I keep it vanilla as much as possible these days.
But now mojang has released it THEIR way, and that way works out just fine for me. I'm not going to mention your obvious pet peeves of "difficulty" or "realism" because I don't find it difficult in the slightest, I find it exhilarating, TACTICS . . . REAL TACTICS now have to be employed. This is making my game far more interesting than; eat pork instantly to restore vital wound, I've had enough of stuff like that.
On to experience then, well you might be jumping the gun a bit here, I heavily doubt exp will be turning out as you assume it will be. "And what do they say about assumptions being the brother of all **** ups?**" Also word around the campfire says exp is to be more of a currency than a level up system . . . not sure if that's true, but if it is, most of your complaints are defunct.
All in all man, it's your loss, I'll be enjoying game. You can sit there and grunt about what you think this game is becoming***.
*Obviously you're not leaving, but your thread certainly fits into the category. **Soap; Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels ***I hope you don't consider yourself a purist for making your desision, you're not . . .
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."
::Quote from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
...Have you ever played Dwarf Fortress? NetHack? Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup? Angband? Each of those games have elements from (or are) RPGS and elaborate, if tedious, level-up and skill system. Oh yeah, and when you die, you lose everything; roll up a new character and start over.
Don't count off the prospect of an extensive skill branch in Minecraft just yet. After all, this is a game in which you can risk losing just about everything else if you died very far off from your spawn point. And since Notch inspiration for his early design choices for Minecraft came from Dwarf Fortress... I'll cut the speculation here.
Also, I would like to restate my thoughts on hunger. Currently, it influences the start game strongly in a bad way, by forcing you to either get lucky and/or perform tedious tasks to survive. Here's what happens in the start game. If you:
- start in the desert or snow biome, and don't see a single tree nor animal in sight, you're going to have an extremely difficult and arduous time surviving.
- start in any environment without animals nor both types of mushrooms in sight, you'll have to dedicate a good amount of time to farming before you could do anything else of actual interest without taking serious risks.
- start with either an abundance of animals, both types of mushrooms in sight, or in the mushroom biome, then praise the gods! It's gonna be a long time before food concerns you, and/or (in the case of mushrooms) you're free to roam around as much as you want once you collect once you get some bonemeal.
EDIT:
Well, although the OP certainly was complaining, even that's not without it's merits. We both and several others agree that hunger doesn't work very well as is, and that XP/leveling is something we could do without. Now, XP/leveling is much too rooted to personal preference, so there's really little argument there. But I'm sure that I'm not the only one around here that thinks that hunger, or something else in the game, could use adjustment to make it work well.
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Curse PremiumFirst off, it sucks in multiplayer servers because if someone dies, the world then lags the **** up because the person sometimes drops the 50 billion exp orbs they had. (Nobody better say "they fixed that" because they did not. It is still a problem on the server that I host. And yes, Minecraft is fully updated so I am not missing a recent patch.) Despite that annoyance with experience orbs, which I hope to God is fixed sometime soon, the experience can make it easier for you to collect the resources needed to build awesome ****.
I haven't read around much, but I THINK the experience is eventually going to go to things like being able to mine faster, deal more damage...maybe...and so on. So it isn't really becoming an RPG; they are just making a way for it to be faster for you to get more and more materials to make yo awesome ****.
I completely understand what you are saying and where you are coming from though in your original post.
I like the hunger bar, it adds to the immersion and creates a new resource management but I see how it could annoy people. It still needs tweaking though, food can be too hard to come across when starting a new world and ends up being too abundant after a short while.
Creative mode was put in to 1.8 to cater for how people play the game differently but it doesnt quite fill the gap. The best option I can see here is to add that survival difficulty bar that was talked about (Forgot source). At the low end of the bar, the game would play out most like creative but without the flying and block selector. At the high end, the game would play out with a survival focus. Mob difficulty would be a seperate scale.
I would prefer a huge list of settings though that can be applied to the world (Void fog, mob spawn rate, mob difficulty, hunger rate etc). Unless that gets implemented, people will have to make do with building in survival with hunger or creative with unlimited blocks.
Not if you want to actually play a game. I don't think it's right that you speak for a whole community.
Perhaps a chunk of it, but not everyone.
I very much enjoy the new update, personally. I have no problem with it either. Yes, having more challenge is fun [although you seem to hate the concept of people mentioning it], but it also adds some diversity to the game. There are more things to do, there are more strategic ways of thinking to get resources, and fighting, to build this "cool ****".
The only problem I've actually had with the update would be that the Endermen are unavoidable, in respects to destruction. Other than that, it's all groovy.
Experience orbs wouldn't matter, if you want to play Minecraft the same old anyway. What obligations do you have to grind and only destroy demons vs. building things?
If one wants to gain XP, they may fight mobs. If one wants to build, they may gain resources and build. if one wants a mix of both, that is possible too. I see no wall here stopping anyone from doing either.
Also, if there is a problem with hunger, then Easy mode may be the answer, or possibly peaceful or creative.
Please elaborate why the hunger is an issue, further please. I don't fully understand.
Once you get a couple chunks of food you're good for quite some time. It actually seems to help with skirmishes, too.
The hunger bar adds to the game, rather than takes away. It doesn't bother you for loads of time.
On top of that, I'm positive there are mods that are able to take away hunger, and XP altogether. In which, noting that 1.8 just came out, they should be relatively easy to locate.
Even I, who has a problem with Enderman, am able to find a mod solution if the problem will remain as is.
But as I said, could you please just elaborate a few points?
Minor..? Minor? MINOR? Good sir, have you been playing Minecraft for 3 days?!
I've been playing since Alpha 1.17 or something like that. And 1.8 was supposed to breathe some new life into the game, but Notch really pushed it out too early and left some features unfinished and simply didn't work on every last detailt enough and refine them perfectly. And the second he did that, it was ****.
Minecraft is not just a building game. It's not up to you to dictate what kind of game it is.
And I wish people would drop the entire "realism" argument. Things are not added to the game to either appeal to realism or to non-realism. For the most part, things are added because they contribute something worthwhile. Hunger is added because it's familiar. Everybody knows what it is and how to solve it. Same thing with gravity. Great games have a balance between fictional and realism...
And I don't know why people are always stating they won't play the next version. We get these kinds of threads every time Minecraft updates. It's annoying and it's such a typical way to rebel against an update you don't like.
xp orbs: Yes, it does have xp in its name but that doesn't mean It's trying to act like other games. Just the fact that you loose your xp when you die, and people who kill you can get all your xp makes minecraft really survival, after so long...
DON'T EVEN COMPARE THAT CRAPPY JOKE OF A GRIND BOT FILLED HELL HOLE TO MINECRAFT.
Anyway's, you really don't need to whine on the forums if you dont like 1.8 dont update no need to whine, and lord forbid if a game was *gasp* made harder.
I thought hunger would suck - but you get more food from animals and almost all food stacks now (YAY!) so it's not even close to bad.
New combat like the bows is pretty sweet.
the only thing hunger really does is stop you from "running" all the time (W twice quickly, and hold it) can't run when at 3 hunger or lower.
On easy mode, being starving drops you half life (if you were full) but won't kill you if you weren't (down to 1 heart)
Hard it can kill you, but honestly the game is rough enough on normal for most gamers to be happy so there's no real need (or benefit...) from making things rougher for yourself.
Experience will be wonderful with skills - it destroys some plugins (which is a good thing - the more plugins a server runs, the worse off everything gets, like lag)
Don't like it, don't have to play, but honestly I think your just being a bit thick.
As for the experience, I like the idea. It isn't forcing you to go grind for levels, it's just another addition to the game. I'm looking at it simply as more bang for your buck.
Good luck in 1.7.3 though, it's a worthy alternative :smile.gif:
As for being serious though, Hunger and Experience aren't conceptually bad - it always and completely depends on how they're actually being implemented. If you think otherwise, then that's your opinion ofc, but I think you should look more into the potentials rather than judging it solely on how it currently works in Minecraft. I can think of numerous scenarios where Hunger works perfectly.
Also, the Hunger system in Fallout New Vegas was praised for it's somewhat solid implementation, and we all know Experience as being a crucial part of many games out there that aren't just RPGs (and it's not always called "experience" but it's practically identical to it).
That said, I agree that the current Hunger system is broken, but I'm sure Mojang is fully aware of this. So instead of ditching the current version, I'm rather gonna wait and see what happens in 1.9 and 1.10 of the game. OR Minecraft 1.0 official release, once it comes out.
After all, we're still in Beta :wink.gif:
May the force be without you.
ANYWAYS it's really not much of a big deal, you leaving* that is, I couldn't care less about these "I'm leaving*, and OH YEAH here's WHY" threads, which seems to be guaranteed after every update. You're not some titan in the community who holds the populous opinion on his/her shoulders, I never understand why worthless complaints like these need to be posted.
As for your main points of argument on hunger, I'm not exactly sure how you were able to survey the entirety of people in existence if they downloaded the hunger plugins in the past . . . must of been tough work I'm sure.
Would I have downloaded a hunger mod before this update? (If I actually knew it existed) Probably not, since I don't care much for things not made by mojang, I keep it vanilla as much as possible these days.
But now mojang has released it THEIR way, and that way works out just fine for me. I'm not going to mention your obvious pet peeves of "difficulty" or "realism" because I don't find it difficult in the slightest, I find it exhilarating, TACTICS . . . REAL TACTICS now have to be employed. This is making my game far more interesting than; eat pork instantly to restore vital wound, I've had enough of stuff like that.
On to experience then, well you might be jumping the gun a bit here, I heavily doubt exp will be turning out as you assume it will be. "And what do they say about assumptions being the brother of all **** ups?**" Also word around the campfire says exp is to be more of a currency than a level up system . . . not sure if that's true, but if it is, most of your complaints are defunct.
All in all man, it's your loss, I'll be enjoying game. You can sit there and grunt about what you think this game is becoming***.
*Obviously you're not leaving, but your thread certainly fits into the category.
**Soap; Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking Barrels
***I hope you don't consider yourself a purist for making your desision, you're not . . .
::Quote from The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes
"I don't like this, I'm gonna stick with the old one."
I like 1.8 for the fact that eating is finally not the same as chugging down potions.
don't play the updates.
Pretty hard to mod without MCP as an amateur who doesn't know basics of programming