I've made points about the various topics listed in the OP's post throughout the forums, so I'm too lazy to reiterate my stance on them.
However, in terms of the biome generation, I think there is a happy medium between 1.7 terrain and 1.8, and they went a little overboard. I do like new biomes, I like larger biomes, and I like smoother biomes... not ones that are absolutely massive, however. 1.7 and even dating before that, terrain generation could be a complete disaster. Some biomes were barely larger than a chunk, and ended at straight edges. Finding a decently sized, and shaped, biome could be a nightmare.
I think the biome size in 1.8 needs to be tuned down just a tiny bit. I think they all look wonderful compared to anything 1.7 spit out, especially the Mountain biomes. ...Is there even such a thing, or am I just getting some awesome terrain?
I find it hard to call it the "adventure" update where there's nothing that really makes me want to explore; no bosses, no NPCs, nothing of interest to find. Everything feels like an empty husk at the moment in terms of "exploration". Although, the many additions in this update are nice.
To answer your tealdeer:
So you can find stuff like this:
My initial start was x:230 z:-17
The coordinates this image was taken from is x:-622 z:1546
That was a long walk and well worth it to find that overhang to set up home base. I've explored and repaired a local mineshaft to about 20% completion, harvesting all the tracks to make a swift way down from my chateau. Since I want to fix all the broken in that mine, I have a lot to do in the furture.
This game gives what you put into it. If you have no patience to explore and find that perfect spot, may I recommend garry's mod as a creative outlet, and Skyrim for that ultimate adventure (just have to wait a couple more months)
Damn it how does everyone find good places but me!
Ot: I agree it doesn't really reward it at all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's not that I hate you, it's just that, if you were on fire and I had water... I would drink it
my biggest concern with the food bar is how it's going to change PvP
basically if someone gets the drop on you, you're f***ed 10 times over
Youre gonna have to be
*ghasp*
careful!!!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
note: Then I mention a group of people in my posts, i mean the majority of information i have seen from that group, and my statement may not be accurate for every individual in that group.
I disagree with you on the changes to biomes. The new larger biome sizes is long overdue. Many people (including myself) have been arguing for larger biomes since before these were even formally released in the first place. The larger biomes with 1.8 are a very welcome addition. Sure, this does mean it will take a little bit longer to find the biome you may prefer to build on, but when you do find it, you have LOTS of space to work with. This is a very good thing.
With the rest of your argument about exploration being "unrewarding" I am forced to agree with you despite the somewhat ranty nature of your post. There is little reason to really explore short of just the desire to see the new map features. And this is only really because they are "new". Before long we will become familiar with these map elements and the burning need to go find them, will have faded.
The only actual "reward" I have seen for exploration so far is the pitiful little chests found in mine shafts. And these really don't give anything of any tangible value. Maybe you'll get some seeds from here, which is useful once if you don't already have them, but otherwise? meh. whatever.
Hopefully this will change more with 1.9 when they start adding in npcs and whatever else they have planned.
I made a new world, made an awesome mountain home, spruced it up with vines, then found a mineshaft that contained 8 diamonds, 21 gold, and two stacks of Iron... I got all that my first day with the pre-release. I call each of those a very nice reward for exploration.
The only change in difficulty is that you have to eat food more, which does not hinder you in any way. The purpose of this is to add an element of going around looking through dungeons, finding villages and stuff, going across oceans to find new lands to explore. If you are unhappy by all means install the mods that make the experience better, and the mods that will definitely come out so that you won't need to eat food.
1. Make special ores and items only spawn in specific biomes.
2. Make dungeons and strongholds have lots of loot.
3. Make bosses drop special magic weapons and tools that can't be crafted.
4. Make certain bosses and mobs spawn only in specific areas, and give them special drops.
5. Make certain bosses and mobs respawn in different areas so we never know where they'll show up.
[b]Larger biomes bring more of same terrain. It isn't rewarding to make us travel for longer to see features we could find easially in previous versions.
I mean I don't want to travel hundreds of blocks to find different generations of land, especially if i can't expect the land generation in most biomes to change significantly. This is more tedious than it is fun and it makes for far less interesting backdrops when I do want to settle down and build something. Unless Notch's idea of rewarding us means we need to spend many days searching to find anything interesting to look at since the terrain generations are less interesting.
I'm not referring to the new biomes. The new structures and new biomes are well executed, but the shear lack of randomness just overall sours the experience. If I see a lot of trees in one area I don't want to think oh that absolutely has to be a forest biome. [b]What is the point of exploring a known biome if we can expect the same general generations for all biomes of that type?[/b]
I see what your saying here, but people wanted bigger biomes due to the fact that there were worlds being genereated with 12x12 deserts! Thats just bogus. Another thing on a larger biome is it leaves more room to build, witch is the whole point of minecraft mind you. I do second that it needs more flavor to the code, But i never want to see a small desert mixed in with a forest, it just doesnt make sense.
This rewards survival more than anything. It hurts exploration. I don't want to use sprint because it will always mean I will need to replace that energy with a food item. Sprint seems like a gimmick that was added, because you will need to travel far distances to see anything of interest. I know they will balance these things as they go along, but really in order to travel long distance by sprinting you will need massive amounts of food.
Gathering food is not something that is intended to reward exploration.
My main issue with the food meter is that it makes you hesitant to travel in risk of starving. I do have to mention that it goes down very slowly if you aren't sprinting. But really you're vulnerable to dieing if you lose more than one food bar. If you lose your main food supply, then you can't heal yourself.
The main sources of food in 1.9 will be farms. Farms that will require you to spend extended periods of time in one place waiting for things to grow or mutate into more versions of themselves. There will be little reason to go far away from your farms once this happens. Don't expect to spend too much time in a cave without a ridiculous amount of food, because unless your food bar is practically full you can't heal yourself. The new healing system directly inhibits exploration by requiring that we amass abnormal amounts of food before going into any dangerous endeavor.
It was meant to nerf healing obviously, but that fact that it only heals you when your at 8/10 bars is stupid as hell. as long as you have 1/10 you should heal in my opinion. The was also implemented to make you have to plan what you do instead of run'n'gun everything.
As for your toggle f3 trick thats not a exploration method thats straight cheating.
I agree with you in that terrain is just not variated enough (With the addition of mountain biome, normal mountains made of other biomes do not exist anymore, making the terrain really boring. Also, the only interesing landmarks there are are ravines, strongholds, and mineshafts. Mineshafts and ravines are way too common, and stronghold is 3 per world, which considering the world is bigger than earth, stop exploration altogether.
We really need different terrain features that make traveling worth, like continents having different geology, fauna, flora, and npc villages. We need new ways of transport, like ships and airships similar to the zepellin mod, and posibly some kind of land carriage. Oceans are too bland, there should be sea life and formations, possibly underwater caves and shores.
I do not really think hunger is bad for exploration, if only it makes it more fun.
One stack of food will last forever, even if you are sprinting. Just bring a stack of cooked food with you when you go out. There are animals all over the place if you would happen to need more food. Food should not be holding you back from exploring.
One thing I was thinking about that might help with exploring, now that the areas are much larger, is to add a couple minutes on to the day/night cycle. That way if you head out in the morning, you will have more time to find stuff before it gets dark. What do you guys think?
I always thought the whole F3'ing thing was kinda lame. Yeah, I used it for finding food (pigs) and mob awareness but I always kinda felt like I was cheating.
1. Make special ores and items only spawn in specific biomes.
2. Make dungeons and strongholds have lots of loot.
3. Make bosses drop special magic weapons and tools that can't be crafted.
4. Make certain bosses and mobs spawn only in specific areas, and give them special drops.
5. Make certain bosses and mobs respawn in different areas so we never know where they'll show up.
I agree with all but 3.
I really dislike the idea of items that can't be crafted. If saddles had a practicale use, I'd argue for a crafting recipie.
What I would prefer instead is either
a. The special items can be crafted, but it is difficult and expensive(requiring rare resources from several biomes, for instance)
or
b. The special items are crafting components. These can be made into special tools and armour that can't otherwise be obtained. This still keeps the items out of reach until you defeat the bosses, but you get more choice in what you do with it.
I mainly dislike the idea of there being an item I really want, and after exploring for hours and exploring a stronghold, I beat the boss... and it drops the wrong item. So I have to go again, explore, find a boss, and hope it drops the right item. There needs to be some way to direct it. Either by having an alternative means of getting it, such as be exploring several biomes for components, or having a way of converting the reward into the item you prefer.
option b would also open up the oppurtunity for greater rewards that require the resources from several bosses to create. Something that would take a lot of adventuring to ptu together, but would be well worth the effort in the end.
I also really like the idea of very valuable, rare, biome specific resurces in general.
Venture into the heart of the rainforest, and cut a branch from the tree of life.
sail the seas and hunt the elusive albatross, and collect it's feathers.
Venture into the depths of a volcano for burning obsidian.
Kill the queen spider to get the queen's silk.
Craft them into the bow of life and the arrows of destiny!
These resources could be useful outside of making specilized items. Albatross feathers could make better arrows in general, burning obsidian could have a variety of uses, etc. So having any one of hte resources is still valauble, but their worth can be combined.
Large biomes are AMAZING. Of course they reward exploration. It makes it more exciting to travel across huge oceans and flat plains to find huge mountain biomes with amazing rivers and ravines. Just my opinion.
And food is always in constant supply. Pigs, cows, and chickens spawn a lot. You don't even have to cook any meat, as it doesn't really do anything to your health. When you see a pig, just kill it, eat, and continue on.
I mainly dislike the idea of there being an item I really want, and after exploring for hours and exploring a stronghold, I beat the boss... and it drops the wrong item. So I have to go again, explore, find a boss, and hope it drops the right item. There needs to be some way to direct it. Either by having an alternative means of getting it, such as be exploring several biomes for components, or having a way of converting the reward into the item you prefer.
This is, if any of those suggestions are added, would be the one added as it would FORCE the player to do more than sit on their ass and would make the game less manipulatable.
If you have to TL;DR please answer the question at the very end.
I know I'm going to get flames for this, but I'm just going over the core concepts in my head and it doesn't add up. All of the things they are doing are making exploration harder to do and limit us in various ways. Larger biomes bring more of same terrain. It isn't rewarding to make us travel for longer to see features we could find easially in previous versions.
I mean I don't want to travel hundreds of blocks to find different generations of land, especially if i can't expect the land generation in most biomes to change significantly. This is more tedious than it is fun and it makes for far less interesting backdrops when I do want to settle down and build something. Unless Notch's idea of rewarding us means we need to spend many days searching to find anything interesting to look at since the terrain generations are less interesting.
I'm not referring to the new biomes. The new structures and new biomes are well executed, but the shear lack of randomness just overall sours the experience. If I see a lot of trees in one area I don't want to think oh that absolutely has to be a forest biome. What is the point of exploring a known biome if we can expect the same general generations for all biomes of that type?
This is my main point on biomes in 1.8. They have one size and do not easially mix. In 1.7 you could have super small deserts or medium sized deserts. You could have tiny forests, or huge forests that go on forever. You could have incredibly unique combinations of biomes. It just doesn't work like that anymore.
Food meter
This rewards survival more than anything. It hurts exploration. I don't want to use sprint because it will always mean I will need to replace that energy with a food item. Sprint seems like a gimmick that was added, because you will need to travel far distances to see anything of interest. I know they will balance these things as they go along, but really in order to travel long distance by sprinting you will need massive amounts of food.
Gathering food is not something that is intended to reward exploration.
My main issue with the food meter is that it makes you hesitant to travel in risk of starving. I do have to mention that it goes down very slowly if you aren't sprinting. But really you're vulnerable to dieing if you lose more than one food bar. If you lose your main food supply, then you can't heal yourself.
The main sources of food in 1.9 will be farms. Farms that will require you to spend extended periods of time in one place waiting for things to grow or mutate into more versions of themselves. There will be little reason to go far away from your farms once this happens. Don't expect to spend too much time in a cave without a ridiculous amount of food, because unless your food bar is practically full you can't heal yourself. The new healing system directly inhibits exploration by requiring that we amass abnormal amounts of food before going into any dangerous endeavor.
Removal of popular exploration techniques.
Removing the F toggle and mob signatures was their way of forcing us to explore the natural way. Well the natural way happens to be the most tedious way to find things. I don't know why more tedious and more fun get confused sometimes. Sure it makes a more complete game, yes. Does it reward exploration? No. It just means we have to spend more hours mindlessly digging for monster noises.
The idea of continents
I don't quite agree with turning the Minecraft scape into continents. The world doesn't need massive amounts of water past a certain point of the map. I mean noone is going to want to legitly travel for many minecraft days over these things. You could have nearly endless land generation in 1.7. Adding massive barriers between landmasses just hinders exploration, because you can't expect it to be any different on the other side of the ocean. The grass wont be any greener. It will be the same damn grass and it will add needless MBs onto your World size just to traverse it.
The only things that I can think of that rewards exploration are the new structures and NPCs, the new dungeons and the possible endgame bosses, and the new biomes. The fact that they are going to limit it to one per world is just ridiculous. If you have more than one then people will have a reason to keep exploring. I hope they change their mind about this by part 2 of the 1.8 update. I hope that they continue to improve upon the structure generator as well as the new biomes. Those are the only things that reward exploration and the rest of it either makes it worse or doesn't help at all.
What do you think of the focus towards exploration in 1.8/9?
1. The size increase means finding biomes is awesomer, because finding giant forests is better than finding some different-coloured trees, and oceans are better than lakes.
2. You can get more foods from many passive mobs (and I heard something about stacking).
3. Food just means you have to go out and kill pigs instead of being lazy.
4. There are already other farms and tree farms.
I agree with all but 3.
I really dislike the idea of items that can't be crafted. If saddles had a practicale use, I'd argue for a crafting recipie.
What I would prefer instead is either
a. The special items can be crafted, but it is difficult and expensive(requiring rare resources from several biomes, for instance)
or
b. The special items are crafting components. These can be made into special tools and armour that can't otherwise be obtained. This still keeps the items out of reach until you defeat the bosses, but you get more choice in what you do with it.
I like both the ideas of bosses dropping special weapons and tools that can't be craft, or dropping special ores and crafting items that can't be obtained any other way. The weapons and tools would be fantasy-esque legend items, like the Sword of Odin, etc. I would like a little more RPG style incentive. Both are good solutions in my view, though.
I mainly dislike the idea of there being an item I really want, and after exploring for hours and exploring a stronghold, I beat the boss... and it drops the wrong item. So I have to go again, explore, find a boss, and hope it drops the right item. There needs to be some way to direct it. Either by having an alternative means of getting it, such as be exploring several biomes for components, or having a way of converting the reward into the item you prefer.
I rather like the idea of them being a pain the obtain. They are, after all, special items.
option b would also open up the oppurtunity for greater rewards that require the resources from several bosses to create. Something that would take a lot of adventuring to ptu together, but would be well worth the effort in the end.
I also really like the idea of very valuable, rare, biome specific resurces in general.
Venture into the heart of the rainforest, and cut a branch from the tree of life.
sail the seas and hunt the elusive albatross, and collect it's feathers.
Venture into the depths of a volcano for burning obsidian.
Kill the queen spider to get the queen's silk.
Craft them into the bow of life and the arrows of destiny!
These resources could be useful outside of making specilized items. Albatross feathers could make better arrows in general, burning obsidian could have a variety of uses, etc. So having any one of hte resources is still valauble, but their worth can be combined.
However, in terms of the biome generation, I think there is a happy medium between 1.7 terrain and 1.8, and they went a little overboard. I do like new biomes, I like larger biomes, and I like smoother biomes... not ones that are absolutely massive, however. 1.7 and even dating before that, terrain generation could be a complete disaster. Some biomes were barely larger than a chunk, and ended at straight edges. Finding a decently sized, and shaped, biome could be a nightmare.
I think the biome size in 1.8 needs to be tuned down just a tiny bit. I think they all look wonderful compared to anything 1.7 spit out, especially the Mountain biomes. ...Is there even such a thing, or am I just getting some awesome terrain?
Anyway. Point stands!
Damn it how does everyone find good places but me!
Ot: I agree it doesn't really reward it at all.
Youre gonna have to be
*ghasp*
careful!!!
With the rest of your argument about exploration being "unrewarding" I am forced to agree with you despite the somewhat ranty nature of your post. There is little reason to really explore short of just the desire to see the new map features. And this is only really because they are "new". Before long we will become familiar with these map elements and the burning need to go find them, will have faded.
The only actual "reward" I have seen for exploration so far is the pitiful little chests found in mine shafts. And these really don't give anything of any tangible value. Maybe you'll get some seeds from here, which is useful once if you don't already have them, but otherwise? meh. whatever.
Hopefully this will change more with 1.9 when they start adding in npcs and whatever else they have planned.
1. Make special ores and items only spawn in specific biomes.
2. Make dungeons and strongholds have lots of loot.
3. Make bosses drop special magic weapons and tools that can't be crafted.
4. Make certain bosses and mobs spawn only in specific areas, and give them special drops.
5. Make certain bosses and mobs respawn in different areas so we never know where they'll show up.
I see what your saying here, but people wanted bigger biomes due to the fact that there were worlds being genereated with 12x12 deserts! Thats just bogus. Another thing on a larger biome is it leaves more room to build, witch is the whole point of minecraft mind you. I do second that it needs more flavor to the code, But i never want to see a small desert mixed in with a forest, it just doesnt make sense.
It was meant to nerf healing obviously, but that fact that it only heals you when your at 8/10 bars is stupid as hell. as long as you have 1/10 you should heal in my opinion. The was also implemented to make you have to plan what you do instead of run'n'gun everything.
As for your toggle f3 trick thats not a exploration method thats straight cheating.
We really need different terrain features that make traveling worth, like continents having different geology, fauna, flora, and npc villages. We need new ways of transport, like ships and airships similar to the zepellin mod, and posibly some kind of land carriage. Oceans are too bland, there should be sea life and formations, possibly underwater caves and shores.
I do not really think hunger is bad for exploration, if only it makes it more fun.
One thing I was thinking about that might help with exploring, now that the areas are much larger, is to add a couple minutes on to the day/night cycle. That way if you head out in the morning, you will have more time to find stuff before it gets dark. What do you guys think?
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I agree with all but 3.
I really dislike the idea of items that can't be crafted. If saddles had a practicale use, I'd argue for a crafting recipie.
What I would prefer instead is either
a. The special items can be crafted, but it is difficult and expensive(requiring rare resources from several biomes, for instance)
or
b. The special items are crafting components. These can be made into special tools and armour that can't otherwise be obtained. This still keeps the items out of reach until you defeat the bosses, but you get more choice in what you do with it.
I mainly dislike the idea of there being an item I really want, and after exploring for hours and exploring a stronghold, I beat the boss... and it drops the wrong item. So I have to go again, explore, find a boss, and hope it drops the right item. There needs to be some way to direct it. Either by having an alternative means of getting it, such as be exploring several biomes for components, or having a way of converting the reward into the item you prefer.
option b would also open up the oppurtunity for greater rewards that require the resources from several bosses to create. Something that would take a lot of adventuring to ptu together, but would be well worth the effort in the end.
I also really like the idea of very valuable, rare, biome specific resurces in general.
Venture into the heart of the rainforest, and cut a branch from the tree of life.
sail the seas and hunt the elusive albatross, and collect it's feathers.
Venture into the depths of a volcano for burning obsidian.
Kill the queen spider to get the queen's silk.
Craft them into the bow of life and the arrows of destiny!
These resources could be useful outside of making specilized items. Albatross feathers could make better arrows in general, burning obsidian could have a variety of uses, etc. So having any one of hte resources is still valauble, but their worth can be combined.
Large biomes are AMAZING. Of course they reward exploration. It makes it more exciting to travel across huge oceans and flat plains to find huge mountain biomes with amazing rivers and ravines. Just my opinion.
And food is always in constant supply. Pigs, cows, and chickens spawn a lot. You don't even have to cook any meat, as it doesn't really do anything to your health. When you see a pig, just kill it, eat, and continue on.
This is, if any of those suggestions are added, would be the one added as it would FORCE the player to do more than sit on their ass and would make the game less manipulatable.
1. The size increase means finding biomes is awesomer, because finding giant forests is better than finding some different-coloured trees, and oceans are better than lakes.
2. You can get more foods from many passive mobs (and I heard something about stacking).
3. Food just means you have to go out and kill pigs instead of being lazy.
4. There are already other farms and tree farms.
I like both the ideas of bosses dropping special weapons and tools that can't be craft, or dropping special ores and crafting items that can't be obtained any other way. The weapons and tools would be fantasy-esque legend items, like the Sword of Odin, etc. I would like a little more RPG style incentive. Both are good solutions in my view, though.
I rather like the idea of them being a pain the obtain. They are, after all, special items.
Word to that.