There's little to no use for crafting bookshelves and paintings for purposes outside of appearance, either. But we can still do so.
I am in favor of furniture. People don't have to use it if they don't like it, and it would allow for much nicer interior decoration. Things like tables, chairs, couches, and the like. They would all be really nice to have.
I am for furniture as well more the better but Notch can't add everything I say rather then point out little things such as this post for mod support so its easy to download mods to the server and use and any client has to click a Yes or No to "This server has mods on them would you like to Download them?"
I would rather have something like this first before we get tables
In order to fix it, he would have to allocate more bits to it. Since this has to be stored for EVERY block, then EVERY block will need more bits. And due to how computers work, that is at least another byte, so 8 more bits. That is a significant change, and will increase the memory footprint of each chunk significantly. This means it takes that much more ram, and more importantly, takes that much more time ot load and store, therey increasing lag. Esp. on SMP, where you have to send chunks over the network, so increasing their size will further harm performance. This is something that simply cannot be done without a performance hit, and it will prevent an issue that may or may not actually come up.
And if it does come up, it will be later. As in the future. As in a time period where the average computer will be faster than it is now. Hence, the player base will be that much better equipped to handle the performance hit. I mean, its been 2 years, and we havn't even used up half of the block IDs. We could go for years before it becomes an issue, which is ages when you are talking about computers.
except there is a mod that increases the current 128 block limit to 255 that does not cause your worlds to expand totally out of controll in data size or useage.
Also, we have 3 different types of trees, but only one tree item block. How? Data values, that's how.
Notch COULD create 10 different types of planks (redwood, oak, ect) and have it only take up ONE block ID by using the data value.
Also, we still have 150ish Block IDs left (if notch ever expands like what the mod did). We can take 2 block id's out for the basic "chair" ID and basic "table" ID.
From just THOSe two IDs....
we could have Wooden tables/chairs
Log tables/chairs
diamond tables/chairs
gold tables/chairs
iron tables/chairs
bone tables/chairs
obsidian tables/chairs.
I am totally Sure Notch can waste only TWO IDs to give the community an items we've been begging for.
He is going to have to re-organize the terrain.png very soon anyways, might as well do it now while he is working in getting the foundation for more updatings in the adventure update.
EDIT:
ON top of that, they can give tables even more use then just cake. They could make tables act like a chest, but only for one item. The item you put in the "chest" will be displayed on top of the table.
You can even make the "table block" act as shelves by not given it any legs (requiring a fencepost to make an actual ground table). This will allow the table block to me used as shelves for players to desply items, as well as shop displays.
Agreed. It makes me quite angry to see that Mojang does a stupid looking work around. It would take five minutes to throw the Fancy-Pack Mod into the game files, but no. They need an even easier solution.
I'm not trying to hate on Mojang or anything, but they could listen to the community a bit more.
Actually, they kinda did listen to the community. The table was suggested by a player, and Jeb decided to add it.
You do realize this took but a moment to implement? The person who requested it posted the chat log. It was requested, and implemented on the spot. This was a minimal effort addition to allow something that people were using editors to accomplish. Would a real table block be better? Sure, but it would take a lot longer. People are already upset with the amount of adventure features in the update. You are complaining they didn't take time away from those changes to make an unrelated block? The only reason the tables genrate as partof the villages is that he added it, and so decided to use it.
You are acting like the choice was between these psuedo tables and real tables. Its not. Its these psuedo tables or no tables.
except there is a mod that increases the current 128 block limit to 255 that does not cause your worlds to expand totally out of controll in data size or useage.
Also, we have 3 different types of trees, but only one tree item block. How? Data values, that's how.
Notch COULD create 10 different types of planks (redwood, oak, ect) and have it only take up ONE block ID by using the data value.
Also, we still have 150ish Block IDs left (if notch ever expands like what the mod did). We can take 2 block id's out for the basic "chair" ID and basic "table" ID.
From just THOSe two IDs....
we could have Wooden tables/chairs
Log tables/chairs
diamond tables/chairs
gold tables/chairs
iron tables/chairs
bone tables/chairs
obsidian tables/chairs.
I am totally Sure Notch can waste only TWO IDs to give the community an items we've been begging for.
He is going to have to re-organize the terrain.png very soon anyways, might as well do it now while he is working in getting the foundation for more updatings in the adventure update.
EDIT:
ON top of that, they can give tables even more use then just cake. They could make tables act like a chest, but only for one item. The item you put in the "chest" will be displayed on top of the table.
You can even make the "table block" act as shelves by not given it any legs (requiring a fencepost to make an actual ground table). This will allow the table block to me used as shelves for players to desply items, as well as shop displays.
Show me the performance data for that mod that shows it has 0 impact.
And I never said it wasn't worth spending a block data on a table. I merely said that "fixing" the limited block IDs had bigger implications than are expected.
Implementing a new block seriously takes very little work, even blocks with a distinct shape. A few clicks in a calculator, and you've created the geometry of your new block! I've done it before to create things like anvils. In fact, you probably don't even need to make any decent calculations in order to create something that's a flat surface and one post. Four post tables of any size would be cool (ie: a 3x3 table with the posts only at the corners) and actually really easy to do, likewise.
And, what's best? They wouldn't be what actually looks like a complete and total glitch like fence/pressure plate tables!
Yes it is cosmetic, you can lay cakes on anything if I ever use one its in a mine someone else crafted. A Glass block would give you the exact same results your are saying other the fact its not a "table" in your head.
But that glass block is being used as a table. Therefore why don't we just get an actual table?
Still there is tons of other furniture that I would love to be implemented and have more use then just sitting their. Like a chair that could be similar a bed able to skip time but instead of just over the night it will skip to certain rotations of the sun/moon. Dawn sit in chair Its noon or similar.
I wouldn't even like that idea. I don't even like the idea of a bed skipping the night sequence. Why would anyone sit in a chair just to skip a few moments anyway? You're trying to imply that having a table is pointless, but at least I can guarantee that the majority of all people will use it, unlike your chair idea.
You do realize this took but a moment to implement? The person who requested it posted the chat log. It was requested, and implemented on the spot. This was a minimal effort addition to allow something that people were using editors to accomplish. Would a real table block be better? Sure, but it would take a lot longer. People are already upset with the amount of adventure features in the update. You are complaining they didn't take time away from those changes to make an unrelated block? The only reason the tables genrate as partof the villages is that he added it, and so decided to use it.
You are acting like the choice was between these psuedo tables and real tables. Its not. Its these psuedo tables or no tables.
So you're ok with them cutting corners? Because that's what they're doing.
Notch has historically wanted to add decoration blocks. The fan community wants decoration blocks. We already have decoration (and useless) blocks (bookshelf, sponge, locked chest, all of which must be retained for compatibility reasons). There is nothing wrong with like... one or two more IDs being used (one for table, one for chair), and they can even use present textures to great effect. The chair could use metadata to do some magic to allow it to become couches also. It has 4 bits of metadata, don't forget. Allocate the first two bits to facing. 2 bits = 4 values, so all directions are covered. The last two bits would define the shape of the block, like this:
single chair
couch left end
couch center
couch right end
Downside is that it would require a slightly complex renderer, and each block can't be larger than one meter, but I believe some tricks could be used to work around the first problem, and I've seen convincing tables and chairs within the 1 meter block limit. And since the table doesn't need metadata for shaping, you can devote the sixteen values of metadata to texture. If you want a stone table or something, you're more than able to.
Also tables -- I just implemented them in under ten minutes, in case anyone fears that they're a waste of work. And I'm also very tired and distracted now. It took longer for me to craft a cake to test them than it did to actually implement the block, crafting recipe and renderer and all. And while I'm just using the log texture, the result is still much much much better than a pressure plate/fence table could ever hope to be.
Oh no, they added more flexibility in how you place blocks. This is such a horrible, horrible change.
You need to realize, that even though a table is farily simple to make, you still have to make the model, still have to create the texture for it, and if they are doing tables properly, allow it to connect to other tables in a dynamic fashion. Then they have to account for it being a transparent block on the sides, but a solid block on top, which as far as I know, is not currently supported in the code. Compared to making a pressure plate placeable on a fence, at the direct request of a player, thereby allowing legitimately what people were already doing.
These things take time. Maybe not a ton of time, but it a quick addition. It was not a feature they were planning on implementing in full, so they opened up a quick work around for the moment.
They have never said they will not add a table later. Making a quick change is not cutting corners. It is creating a optimal effort to return ratio. Aesthetically, it looks like a table. That is all most people want. Of your purposes for a table, holding a cake is the only one this fails to satisfy.
- Decoration - check
- Gives a spot for cakes to be placed. -no
- Makes cakes more accessible. - why is this a seperate point?
- Would make houses look less of a cluster. - check
- Will offer more vision than a regular block. -check
- Would produce less darkness than a regular block. -check
I don't like the idea of a cake giving more hunger when placed on a table. That makes no sense, and is trying to force what would be a natural interaction.
As for displaying an item, that is a feature notch wants to implement at some point. That time is not now, and when he does add it, it will have more flexibilty than plopping an item on a table.
If you were in the middle of a project, and someone suggested a thing you could do in under a minute to improve things, would you really not do it? Would your really spend a significant amount of time implementing a more involved feature instead? I don't see how you can make this change into a bad thing. Does it hurt the game? No, it offers more options. Is it the best possible table? No.
Seriosuly, if I was making a game, and someone pointed out a quick fix to increase the flexibility, I would definitely do it. I think you would have to be an idiot NOT to do it. It doesn't mean they can't add better tables later. But any way you cut it, we would not be getting tables now. Your view of the tradeoffs is completely skewed.
There are 2 scenarios here:
1. we get the pressure plate tables now, and real tables later
2. We get nothing now, and real tables later.
we are in scenario 1. Scenario 2 has 0 advantages over scenario 1. If anything, scenario 1 make sit more likely to get tables sooner, as the workaroudn tables will be present, and making their flaws apparent, and serving as a reminder.
Show me the performance data for that mod that shows it has 0 impact.
And I never said it wasn't worth spending a block data on a table. I merely said that "fixing" the limited block IDs had bigger implications than are expected.
Go do it yourself. I've done more then enough modding that knowing the expanded IDs mod (which basically ALL modes use now that add blocks) does very little on preformence, wanna know why?
Minecraft naturally has so anything with the value of 0-255 is a "block" and anything 256+ is an "item". Notch "locked" IDs 129-255 for some reason. None of these IDs are used. All what the mod does, which is what Notch can simplely do, is re-arange some code to unlock IDs 129-255.
That gives us (255-96=159) blocks Notch can use.
But wait, modders need blocks too. So let's say notch is saving 100 block IDs for modders to use. That still gives us 59 IDs that notch can use before he totally has to re-write the item code to allow more blocks.
Two of the blocks are easilly used for a table and chair. I mean really, are we REALLY going to need that many more blocks?
On top of that, notch (if smart) will be able to save a TON of IDs by doing data values on the IDs to give us mutiple veriations. In fact, if Notch puts any item that is not used in a crafting recipy and us not used for anything, we can have tons of blocks. I even bet the 3 bricks (stone brciks, mossy bricks, cracked bricks) are all on the same block ID. Ivy, if climbale on, will most likely just be a different data value ladder but both will share the same ID.
"fixing" the IDs doesn't need to be done. All what notch needs to do is "unlock" values 129-255. They are already there in the code. They are set to be "blocks". They just arn't used for some reason.
Finally, the whole Pressure-plate tables are USELESS as tables.
Tables are designed for people to place stuff on
You can not put an item on a pressureplate table since the pressureplate isn't solid and thus has the properties of the fence.
People want tables, to put stuff on them to make them look "nice" and Decrotive. It kind of defeates the reason to have a table, if you can't place something on the table.
If they are going to give us a workaround, I would honestly perfer a decent workaround. I can live with a workaround, but there's some serious flaws with the current workaround.
Yeah... not cutting it. Not cutting it at all.
Likewise, it took me under ten minutes to implement this:
Assuming I have ten minutes to devote to adding a nice feature that I want, route two would obviously be my best choice. It's not very fancy, but I can put a block on the table and have it so it doesn't float midair. Adding logic to make it so that the posts are only at the corner would probably take an additional five minutes, maybe ten if I'm distracted or tired, like I am right now. Remember that many features in MC were features added on a whim. Tall grass, hatches, and all of those which arguably require more coding than my simple little table did.
But meh, piston tables do exist to fill the gap until they implement real working decorations, and I don't have to bother with the ulgy fake piston tables myself.
EDIT:
Notch "locked" IDs 129-255 for some reason. None of these IDs are used. All what the mod does, which is what Notch can simplely do, is re-arange some code to unlock IDs 129-255.
Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this? My table is occupying slot 143 with no issue. Does modloader change something to get around said lock? I am using ModLoader but the end result in terms of coding time is no different.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this? My table is occupying slot 143 with no issue. Does modloader change something to get around said lock? I am using ModLoader but the end result in terms of coding time is no different.
I think modloader natrually comes with it now. I remember back in alpha when block IDs for moders started to get tight and we only had 128 Block IDs to work with, that some one found a way to extend it to 255 and we used to have "modloader + more IDs". Those two just seem so essentail for modding now I don't see why they wouldn't have combined them.
I could be mistaken but there could of been a time when Notch extended it so it works with 129-255. All I remember is back in alpha, modding for blocks pass 128 required an mod to do so.
Go do it yourself. I've done more then enough modding that knowing the expanded IDs mod (which basically ALL modes use now that add blocks) does very little on preformence, wanna know why?
Minecraft naturally has so anything with the value of 0-255 is a "block" and anything 256+ is an "item". Notch "locked" IDs 129-255 for some reason. None of these IDs are used. All what the mod does, which is what Notch can simplely do, is re-arange some code to unlock IDs 129-255.
That gives us (255-96=159) blocks Notch can use.
But wait, modders need blocks too. So let's say notch is saving 100 block IDs for modders to use. That still gives us 59 IDs that notch can use before he totally has to re-write the item code to allow more blocks.
Two of the blocks are easilly used for a table and chair. I mean really, are we REALLY going to need that many more blocks?
On top of that, notch (if smart) will be able to save a TON of IDs by doing data values on the IDs to give us mutiple veriations. In fact, if Notch puts any item that is not used in a crafting recipy and us not used for anything, we can have tons of blocks. I even bet the 3 bricks (stone brciks, mossy bricks, cracked bricks) are all on the same block ID. Ivy, if climbale on, will most likely just be a different data value ladder but both will share the same ID.
"fixing" the IDs doesn't need to be done. All what notch needs to do is "unlock" values 129-255. They are already there in the code. They are set to be "blocks". They just arn't used for some reason.
Finally, the whole Pressure-plate tables are USELESS as tables.
Tables are designed for people to place stuff on
You can not put an item on a pressureplate table since the pressureplate isn't solid and thus has the properties of the fence.
People want tables, to put stuff on them to make them look "nice" and Decrotive. It kind of defeates the reason to have a table, if you can't place something on the table.
That doesn't really make sense. Is notch really ignoring half of the possible block ids for no reason? Considering how much though he has put into how to utilize every bit of the data, that seems really odd. If what you are saying is true, there must be an extra bit there, being unutilized.
As for the data values, that is used for many different things, depending on the block. If the block does not need any extra data, then it can be easily used for cosmetic differences. Utilizing that data to identify different blocks with different IDs has its own can of worms. It would mean that every variety of wood would have to individually count for crafting recipes. You wouldn't have 1 block for redstone, you would have a seperate block for every power value. establishing relationships between them would be much more complex. It works great for cosmetic differences, since it makes them all act the same in relation to everything other than being displayed. It is why you can craft a bed out of any combination of wool without having a seperate crafting recipes for each combination.
I mean, if you are really trying to sit down and optimize every last possible block out of it, you could get into complicated approaches like ranges of blocks being treated as the same, and specifying ranges of blocks for crafting components. But that would get even messier with mods, and would be a fair bit or work to redesign.
But that glass block is being used as a table. Therefore why don't we just get an actual table? Because the glass block is in game right now no more extra work for Mojang
I wouldn't even like that idea. I don't even like the idea of a bed skipping the night sequence. Why would anyone sit in a chair just to skip a few moments anyway? You're trying to imply that having a table is pointless, but at least I can guarantee that the majority of all people will use it, unlike your chair idea.
Right you table is #1 suggestion in this entire forum at the most it serves the same exact purpose a chair would for decoration that's all
That's very stubborn to say. Clearly you can't argue with someone who refuses to listen. I am stubborn because I do want your idea because it only has one purpose and this is for cosmetic reasons I would rather have other things especially the idea I linked before with red stone block. Notch cannot implement everything having mod support would give not just you but everyone for everyone the option to implement their suggestions Mojang or any dev cannot implement everything I want useful stuff before useless stuff
So you're ok with them cutting corners? Because that's what they're doing. How do you see it cutting corners? They're still making the game any block shares the exact same purpose as your suggestion only difference it doesn't look like table to you which makes HUGE difference somehow...
Again I am not against furniture or any idea but I want more useful things first before such is added or even better full mod support for servers to use such ideas.
That doesn't really make sense. Is notch really ignoring half of the possible block ids for no reason? Considering how much though he has put into how to utilize every bit of the data, that seems really odd. If what you are saying is true, there must be an extra bit there, being unutilized.
As for the data values, that is used for many different things, depending on the block. If the block does not need any extra data, then it can be easily used for cosmetic differences. Utilizing that data to identify different blocks with different IDs has its own can of worms. It would mean that every variety of wood would have to individually count for crafting recipes. You wouldn't have 1 block for redstone, you would have a seperate block for every power value. establishing relationships between them would be much more complex. It works great for cosmetic differences, since it makes them all act the same in relation to everything other than being displayed. It is why you can craft a bed out of any combination of wool without having a seperate crafting recipes for each combination.
I mean, if you are really trying to sit down and optimize every last possible block out of it, you could get into complicated approaches like ranges of blocks being treated as the same, and specifying ranges of blocks for crafting components. But that would get even messier with mods, and would be a fair bit or work to redesign.
It doesn't make sense. That was kind of our reaction when we first extended the block IDs. There was all these open values that just wasn't being used. Why Notch only used 128 instead of the full 255, is not a question I can answer. Maybe it deals less with the data and more with how he designed the blocks to be textured. That little 16 by 16 grid wouldn't fit 255 different blocks if 1/4th of those blocks uses different textures for sides and another 1/4th takes up more then one space (tables, doors, chests when put together).
This might also be a reason why he was hesitent to add different tree types, as well as different types of wooden planks(and in turn, doors workbenches, pistons, ladders, basically anything with wood) even though he can use data values so they don't eat up IDs. They take up Space on his small Texture grid. Well, there is also the issue of using different color planks to make an item, but that can be solved so recipies only work when all planks are the same color.
Then again, this whole post is just answering your question and isn't on the main topic of the whole thread.
On topic: I want real tables or a half block chest that desplays one item inside it on top of it, so we can make both tables AND shelves with one block type. only issue: can't eat cake with that set up.
I'd like to ask this thread get back on topic. It's about the work around table implemented in 1.8, not about limited Block ID'S which have next to nothing to do with the main topic.
...also I want furniture darn it, and a real table. :tongue.gif:
It doesn't make sense. That was kind of our reaction when we first extended the block IDs. There was all these open values that just wasn't being used. Why Notch only used 128 instead of the full 255, is not a question I can answer. Maybe it deals less with the data and more with how he designed the blocks to be textured. That little 16 by 16 grid wouldn't fit 255 different blocks if 1/4th of those blocks uses different textures for sides and another 1/4th takes up more then one space (tables, doors, chests when put together).
This might also be a reason why he was hesitent to add different tree types, as well as different types of wooden planks(and in turn, doors workbenches, pistons, ladders, basically anything with wood) even though he can use data values so they don't eat up IDs. They take up Space on his small Texture grid. Well, there is also the issue of using different color planks to make an item, but that can be solved so recipies only work when all planks are the same color.
Then again, this whole post is just answering your question and isn't on the main topic of the whole thread.
On topic: I want real tables or a half block chest that desplays one item inside it on top of it, so we can make both tables AND shelves with one block type. only issue: can't eat cake with that set up.
If its not that big of a deal to open up the rest of the IDs, then I would consider the limit 255 in the first place. That is still low enough that he can't afford to mindlessly waste blocks without a purpose.
However, I am still of the opinion that a table and chair are perfectly reasonable things to spend a block ID on. I am also still of the opinion that a table is also not the right thing to add at this time.
Also, InsanityBringer, how does the table work with torches? Can you place a torch on top, but not the sides? how about redstone? If you can place redstone on top, does it connect to redstone next to it? Does this cause redstone to attach to the non-existant side of the block?
If its not that big of a deal to open up the rest of the IDs, then I would consider the limit 255 in the first place. That is still low enough that he can't afford to mindlessly waste blocks without a purpose.
However, I am still of the opinion that a table and chair are perfectly reasonable things to spend a block ID on. I am also still of the opinion that a table is also not the right thing to add at this time.
Also, InsanityBringer, how does the table work with torches? Can you place a torch on top, but not the sides? how about redstone? If you can place redstone on top, does it connect to redstone next to it? Does this cause redstone to attach to the non-existant side of the block?
I would say now would be the perfect time to add real tables and chairs instead of work-arounds. Well, maybe not 1.8 but 1.9 for sure.
Right now, they are working on the code for NPC houses (which seems to be it's own biome?). All these houses will, look more like houses with tables and chairs in them. It doesn't really make sense to me that in 2, 4, or when ever tables and chairs get truely added instead of this workaround, to go back and redo the generation code to add in more decoration items.
Might as well get it all done for that one thing in one go so you don't have to go back to it soon is what I say.
Also, InsanityBringer, how does the table work with torches? Can you place a torch on top, but not the sides? how about redstone? If you can place redstone on top, does it connect to redstone next to it? Does this cause redstone to attach to the non-existant side of the block?
Like the fences, the table does require an exception in the torch code, as it's not a standard block. I guess you could do the same for redstone but the code for isolating the dust and making it so it couldn't spread to the ground would be needlessly complex, especially since the use for putting redstone on a table is rather limited.
it's a lame addition and the developers should stop slacking and make an actual table in the game.
-.- They have more important things to do than make what crying kids like you want. Use what you want to use, if you dont like it, you dont have to make "The Emotional Speech of the Century". My god...
I am for furniture as well more the better but Notch can't add everything I say rather then point out little things such as this post for mod support so its easy to download mods to the server and use and any client has to click a Yes or No to "This server has mods on them would you like to Download them?"
I would rather have something like this first before we get tables
except there is a mod that increases the current 128 block limit to 255 that does not cause your worlds to expand totally out of controll in data size or useage.
Also, we have 3 different types of trees, but only one tree item block. How? Data values, that's how.
Notch COULD create 10 different types of planks (redwood, oak, ect) and have it only take up ONE block ID by using the data value.
Also, we still have 150ish Block IDs left (if notch ever expands like what the mod did). We can take 2 block id's out for the basic "chair" ID and basic "table" ID.
From just THOSe two IDs....
we could have Wooden tables/chairs
Log tables/chairs
diamond tables/chairs
gold tables/chairs
iron tables/chairs
bone tables/chairs
obsidian tables/chairs.
I am totally Sure Notch can waste only TWO IDs to give the community an items we've been begging for.
He is going to have to re-organize the terrain.png very soon anyways, might as well do it now while he is working in getting the foundation for more updatings in the adventure update.
EDIT:
ON top of that, they can give tables even more use then just cake. They could make tables act like a chest, but only for one item. The item you put in the "chest" will be displayed on top of the table.
You can even make the "table block" act as shelves by not given it any legs (requiring a fencepost to make an actual ground table). This will allow the table block to me used as shelves for players to desply items, as well as shop displays.
Actually, they kinda did listen to the community. The table was suggested by a player, and Jeb decided to add it.
You are acting like the choice was between these psuedo tables and real tables. Its not. Its these psuedo tables or no tables.
Show me the performance data for that mod that shows it has 0 impact.
And I never said it wasn't worth spending a block data on a table. I merely said that "fixing" the limited block IDs had bigger implications than are expected.
And, what's best? They wouldn't be what actually looks like a complete and total glitch like fence/pressure plate tables!
"sometimes, wizards are so awesome, it hurts"
But that glass block is being used as a table. Therefore why don't we just get an actual table?
I wouldn't even like that idea. I don't even like the idea of a bed skipping the night sequence. Why would anyone sit in a chair just to skip a few moments anyway? You're trying to imply that having a table is pointless, but at least I can guarantee that the majority of all people will use it, unlike your chair idea.
That's very stubborn to say. Clearly you can't argue with someone who refuses to listen.
So you're ok with them cutting corners? Because that's what they're doing.
Notch has historically wanted to add decoration blocks. The fan community wants decoration blocks. We already have decoration (and useless) blocks (bookshelf, sponge, locked chest, all of which must be retained for compatibility reasons). There is nothing wrong with like... one or two more IDs being used (one for table, one for chair), and they can even use present textures to great effect. The chair could use metadata to do some magic to allow it to become couches also. It has 4 bits of metadata, don't forget. Allocate the first two bits to facing. 2 bits = 4 values, so all directions are covered. The last two bits would define the shape of the block, like this:
Downside is that it would require a slightly complex renderer, and each block can't be larger than one meter, but I believe some tricks could be used to work around the first problem, and I've seen convincing tables and chairs within the 1 meter block limit. And since the table doesn't need metadata for shaping, you can devote the sixteen values of metadata to texture. If you want a stone table or something, you're more than able to.
Also tables -- I just implemented them in under ten minutes, in case anyone fears that they're a waste of work. And I'm also very tired and distracted now. It took longer for me to craft a cake to test them than it did to actually implement the block, crafting recipe and renderer and all. And while I'm just using the log texture, the result is still much much much better than a pressure plate/fence table could ever hope to be.
"sometimes, wizards are so awesome, it hurts"
You need to realize, that even though a table is farily simple to make, you still have to make the model, still have to create the texture for it, and if they are doing tables properly, allow it to connect to other tables in a dynamic fashion. Then they have to account for it being a transparent block on the sides, but a solid block on top, which as far as I know, is not currently supported in the code. Compared to making a pressure plate placeable on a fence, at the direct request of a player, thereby allowing legitimately what people were already doing.
These things take time. Maybe not a ton of time, but it a quick addition. It was not a feature they were planning on implementing in full, so they opened up a quick work around for the moment.
They have never said they will not add a table later. Making a quick change is not cutting corners. It is creating a optimal effort to return ratio. Aesthetically, it looks like a table. That is all most people want. Of your purposes for a table, holding a cake is the only one this fails to satisfy.
- Decoration - check
- Gives a spot for cakes to be placed. -no
- Makes cakes more accessible. - why is this a seperate point?
- Would make houses look less of a cluster. - check
- Will offer more vision than a regular block. -check
- Would produce less darkness than a regular block. -check
I don't like the idea of a cake giving more hunger when placed on a table. That makes no sense, and is trying to force what would be a natural interaction.
As for displaying an item, that is a feature notch wants to implement at some point. That time is not now, and when he does add it, it will have more flexibilty than plopping an item on a table.
If you were in the middle of a project, and someone suggested a thing you could do in under a minute to improve things, would you really not do it? Would your really spend a significant amount of time implementing a more involved feature instead? I don't see how you can make this change into a bad thing. Does it hurt the game? No, it offers more options. Is it the best possible table? No.
Seriosuly, if I was making a game, and someone pointed out a quick fix to increase the flexibility, I would definitely do it. I think you would have to be an idiot NOT to do it. It doesn't mean they can't add better tables later. But any way you cut it, we would not be getting tables now. Your view of the tradeoffs is completely skewed.
There are 2 scenarios here:
1. we get the pressure plate tables now, and real tables later
2. We get nothing now, and real tables later.
we are in scenario 1. Scenario 2 has 0 advantages over scenario 1. If anything, scenario 1 make sit more likely to get tables sooner, as the workaroudn tables will be present, and making their flaws apparent, and serving as a reminder.
Go do it yourself. I've done more then enough modding that knowing the expanded IDs mod (which basically ALL modes use now that add blocks) does very little on preformence, wanna know why?
Minecraft naturally has so anything with the value of 0-255 is a "block" and anything 256+ is an "item". Notch "locked" IDs 129-255 for some reason. None of these IDs are used. All what the mod does, which is what Notch can simplely do, is re-arange some code to unlock IDs 129-255.
That gives us (255-96=159) blocks Notch can use.
But wait, modders need blocks too. So let's say notch is saving 100 block IDs for modders to use. That still gives us 59 IDs that notch can use before he totally has to re-write the item code to allow more blocks.
Two of the blocks are easilly used for a table and chair. I mean really, are we REALLY going to need that many more blocks?
On top of that, notch (if smart) will be able to save a TON of IDs by doing data values on the IDs to give us mutiple veriations. In fact, if Notch puts any item that is not used in a crafting recipy and us not used for anything, we can have tons of blocks. I even bet the 3 bricks (stone brciks, mossy bricks, cracked bricks) are all on the same block ID. Ivy, if climbale on, will most likely just be a different data value ladder but both will share the same ID.
"fixing" the IDs doesn't need to be done. All what notch needs to do is "unlock" values 129-255. They are already there in the code. They are set to be "blocks". They just arn't used for some reason.
Finally, the whole Pressure-plate tables are USELESS as tables.
Tables are designed for people to place stuff on
You can not put an item on a pressureplate table since the pressureplate isn't solid and thus has the properties of the fence.
People want tables, to put stuff on them to make them look "nice" and Decrotive. It kind of defeates the reason to have a table, if you can't place something on the table.
Yeah... not cutting it. Not cutting it at all.
Likewise, it took me under ten minutes to implement this:
Assuming I have ten minutes to devote to adding a nice feature that I want, route two would obviously be my best choice. It's not very fancy, but I can put a block on the table and have it so it doesn't float midair. Adding logic to make it so that the posts are only at the corner would probably take an additional five minutes, maybe ten if I'm distracted or tired, like I am right now. Remember that many features in MC were features added on a whim. Tall grass, hatches, and all of those which arguably require more coding than my simple little table did.
But meh, piston tables do exist to fill the gap until they implement real working decorations, and I don't have to bother with the ulgy fake piston tables myself.
EDIT: Out of curiosity, what do you mean by this? My table is occupying slot 143 with no issue. Does modloader change something to get around said lock? I am using ModLoader but the end result in terms of coding time is no different.
"sometimes, wizards are so awesome, it hurts"
I think modloader natrually comes with it now. I remember back in alpha when block IDs for moders started to get tight and we only had 128 Block IDs to work with, that some one found a way to extend it to 255 and we used to have "modloader + more IDs". Those two just seem so essentail for modding now I don't see why they wouldn't have combined them.
I could be mistaken but there could of been a time when Notch extended it so it works with 129-255. All I remember is back in alpha, modding for blocks pass 128 required an mod to do so.
That doesn't really make sense. Is notch really ignoring half of the possible block ids for no reason? Considering how much though he has put into how to utilize every bit of the data, that seems really odd. If what you are saying is true, there must be an extra bit there, being unutilized.
As for the data values, that is used for many different things, depending on the block. If the block does not need any extra data, then it can be easily used for cosmetic differences. Utilizing that data to identify different blocks with different IDs has its own can of worms. It would mean that every variety of wood would have to individually count for crafting recipes. You wouldn't have 1 block for redstone, you would have a seperate block for every power value. establishing relationships between them would be much more complex. It works great for cosmetic differences, since it makes them all act the same in relation to everything other than being displayed. It is why you can craft a bed out of any combination of wool without having a seperate crafting recipes for each combination.
I mean, if you are really trying to sit down and optimize every last possible block out of it, you could get into complicated approaches like ranges of blocks being treated as the same, and specifying ranges of blocks for crafting components. But that would get even messier with mods, and would be a fair bit or work to redesign.
Again I am not against furniture or any idea but I want more useful things first before such is added or even better full mod support for servers to use such ideas.
It doesn't make sense. That was kind of our reaction when we first extended the block IDs. There was all these open values that just wasn't being used. Why Notch only used 128 instead of the full 255, is not a question I can answer. Maybe it deals less with the data and more with how he designed the blocks to be textured. That little 16 by 16 grid wouldn't fit 255 different blocks if 1/4th of those blocks uses different textures for sides and another 1/4th takes up more then one space (tables, doors, chests when put together).
This might also be a reason why he was hesitent to add different tree types, as well as different types of wooden planks(and in turn, doors workbenches, pistons, ladders, basically anything with wood) even though he can use data values so they don't eat up IDs. They take up Space on his small Texture grid. Well, there is also the issue of using different color planks to make an item, but that can be solved so recipies only work when all planks are the same color.
Then again, this whole post is just answering your question and isn't on the main topic of the whole thread.
On topic: I want real tables or a half block chest that desplays one item inside it on top of it, so we can make both tables AND shelves with one block type. only issue: can't eat cake with that set up.
...also I want furniture darn it, and a real table. :tongue.gif:
If its not that big of a deal to open up the rest of the IDs, then I would consider the limit 255 in the first place. That is still low enough that he can't afford to mindlessly waste blocks without a purpose.
However, I am still of the opinion that a table and chair are perfectly reasonable things to spend a block ID on. I am also still of the opinion that a table is also not the right thing to add at this time.
Also, InsanityBringer, how does the table work with torches? Can you place a torch on top, but not the sides? how about redstone? If you can place redstone on top, does it connect to redstone next to it? Does this cause redstone to attach to the non-existant side of the block?
I would say now would be the perfect time to add real tables and chairs instead of work-arounds. Well, maybe not 1.8 but 1.9 for sure.
Right now, they are working on the code for NPC houses (which seems to be it's own biome?). All these houses will, look more like houses with tables and chairs in them. It doesn't really make sense to me that in 2, 4, or when ever tables and chairs get truely added instead of this workaround, to go back and redo the generation code to add in more decoration items.
Might as well get it all done for that one thing in one go so you don't have to go back to it soon is what I say.
"sometimes, wizards are so awesome, it hurts"
-.- They have more important things to do than make what crying kids like you want. Use what you want to use, if you dont like it, you dont have to make "The Emotional Speech of the Century". My god...