I am for the farming of player info because I want Mojang to make Minecraft updates based upon how I play.
It's not how you play... It's on how most play. As it stands, there isn't any discernible information about how many prefer creative to hardcore, how many play on servers verses SSP, for how long, what system you're using, ect. Meaning that the majority will likely see the greater bulk of these updates while the minority will be left in the dust and slowly dwindle to nothing as more and more features are added for the sake of the majority. As Minecraft is split between the powergamer, the builder, and the casual gamer, expect there to be some bias, and it probably won't be in favor of the most vocal type.
In comparison, going from what information people offer up, or answer in a poll, leads to a more well rounded game because those who are not part of the majority are generally more likely to do things that give their side more of a voice. Sometimes too much information about your playerbase can lead to some very bad decisions as you cater to the majority and slowly exclude the minority, stratifying things further as people become more and more polarized by one change or another. You can see this very thing playing out here constantly in this forum by the way people have been outspoken about various changes even when they've been supportive of similar ones in the past.
@vurunan
That is not really a good thing either. What's next, Facebook style profile pages for our Minecraft character? Do not need for this game. Do not want.
It's not how you play... It's on how most play. As it stands, there isn't any discernible information about how many prefer creative to hardcore, how many play on servers verses SSP, for how long, what system you're using, ect. Meaning that the majority will likely see the greater bulk of these updates while the minority will be left in the dust and slowly dwindle to nothing as more and more features are added for the sake of the majority. As Minecraft is split between the powergamer, the builder, and the casual gamer, expect there to be some bias, and it probably won't be in favor of the most vocal type.
In comparison, going from what information people offer up, or answer in a poll, leads to a more well rounded game because those who are not part of the majority are generally more likely to do things that give their side more of a voice. Sometimes too much information about your playerbase can lead to some very bad decisions as you cater to the majority and slowly exclude the minority, stratifying things further as people become more and more polarized by one change or another. You can see this very thing playing out here constantly in this forum by the way people have been outspoken about various changes even when they've been supportive of similar ones in the past.
@vurunan
That is not really a good thing either. What's next, Facebook style profile pages for our Minecraft character? Do not need for this game. Do not want.
not neccesarily it depends on how you interpret the data. they could see that a lot of people play online with others, they could see that as keep the game the way it is now OR lets see where we can make this even better.
it depends on how you interpret the data and if it was me where things are lacking i would try and improve on. and we have yet to see how they plan on interpreting the data yet so only time will tell
It's not how you play... It's on how most play. As it stands, there isn't any discernible information about how many prefer creative to hardcore, how many play on servers verses SSP, for how long, what system you're using, ect. Meaning that the majority will likely see the greater bulk of these updates while the minority will be left in the dust and slowly dwindle to nothing as more and more features are added for the sake of the majority. As Minecraft is split between the powergamer, the builder, and the casual gamer, expect there to be some bias, and it probably won't be in favor of the most vocal type.
In comparison, going from what information people offer up, or answer in a poll, leads to a more well rounded game because those who are not part of the majority are generally more likely to do things that give their side more of a voice. Sometimes too much information about your playerbase can lead to some very bad decisions as you cater to the majority and slowly exclude the minority, stratifying things further as people become more and more polarized by one change or another. You can see this very thing playing out here constantly in this forum by the way people have been outspoken about various changes even when they've been supportive of similar ones in the past.
@vurunan
That is not really a good thing either. What's next, Facebook style profile pages for our Minecraft character? Do not need for this game. Do not want.
Edit: Also, you are right! Improving MineCraft for the majority of players sounds like a really bad thing to do! Especially when it would definitely ruin the game for everyone else!
I hate to break it to some of you, but just because you have a consistent fear of any and every form of data gathering as ultimately being some means of spying on you.. that doesn't make it true.
This kind of hysteria is ridiculous. And that's exactly what it is. Hysterical melodrama. Making mountains out of molehills. Making huge stinks about something very innocent and simple. Founded totally from a position of being far too cynical, and perhaps even fair to say some kind of psychiatric condition on the part of some people. Some kind of paranoia or narcissistic disorder.
The guy above has it right on with Slippery Slope Fallacy. It's always a fallacy. People use it all the time, but it's a **** poor excuse for not doing something.. when the only argument is that it "may" become something worse later.
Fuuuuck that, I don't want the fatman collecting my data.
Ya, believe me.. your system is just loaded with all kinds of juicy data that we all want our hands on. I personally am trying every day to break in and get a look at it!
Convince me! Tell me how observing players improves the game!
You guys are the ones who are claiming sinister intent, or at least sinister possibilities. It's up to YOU to back up those claims, not to others to disprove them.
This is also something that happens far too often online.. where believers of nonsense constantly challenge skeptics to disprove them. But it doesn't work that way. The onus is always on the claimant. You claim sinister intent or desire, well PROVE IT.
It is this sort of behavior which is killing PC gaming.
Actually, it's not a problem at all. What is a problem is so many people who believe conspiracies and nonsense, making too big a stink over innocent stuff, from their position of extreme paranoia and ignorance..
That is actually making an arguable effect on gaming. It arguably has a negative effect on the entire world. It's sad the way so many stupid conspiracies and ideas have taken root and grown, online. It's actually staggering... what people are willing to believe.
It tells Mojang what proportion of players are playing multi-player vs single-player, and for how long (eg are they spending a lot of time or just dipping in and out for quick bursts). This is obviously quite useful information to have when designing a game.
or how long people stay in the nether or how many manage to get to the end of the game.
like i said before it all depends on how you interprit it, so untill they screw up we should at least give Jeb and Jon some confidence based on their stellar performance with the weekly snapshots and 1.1
It's not how you play... It's on how most play. As it stands, there isn't any discernible information about how many prefer creative to hardcore, how many play on servers verses SSP, for how long, what system you're using, ect. Meaning that the majority will likely see the greater bulk of these updates while the minority will be left in the dust and slowly dwindle to nothing as more and more features are added for the sake of the majority. As Minecraft is split between the powergamer, the builder, and the casual gamer, expect there to be some bias, and it probably won't be in favor of the most vocal type.
He's doing a pretty good job of making that sound like a terrible thing when in fact it is not!
Honestly, I don't think anything will ever come of this whole debacle. Notch will add tracking (probably), some people will turn it off, and MineCraft updates will resume as usual. At some point Notch will throw an interesting graph up on his blog and we'll all say, "Well, that's interesting," but it won't actually change anything. I don't think any data collected will actually sway any of the developers into adding or excluding specific features. I mean, come on, look at their track record - 90% of new features come out of the blue anyways, so why would they change now? They're obviously just doing what they want and what they feel is best for MineCraft, and I don't think they're gonna turn that policy around on a dime.
The problem being it is not optional, it is decided by majority.
In fairness, it is optional... It's just currently planned to be enabled by default and you have to know about it and where it is to disable it (probably every time you update the game, reinstall from the patcher, or log in using the web application (just like achievements and statistics)). Yep... Entirely optional.
Oh, and I'd love some proof that games (or anything) which use metadata collection end up better. So far just about every one has gotten worse because that mountain of data to sift through takes more time away from the game, or forces it to take different routes just because of "market feeback". It is assumed that it does, but where is the evidence? What ever happened to game makers just making the game the way THEY want, being true to the style and intent they have, and letting gamers decide if they want to play that way or not? It's worked quite well for Mojang till now. Why fix something that isn't broken?
In fairness, it is optional... It's just currently planned to be enabled by default and you have to know about it and where it is to disable it (probably every time you update the game, reinstall from the patcher, or log in using the web application (just like achievements and statistics)). Yep... Entirely optional.
Oh, and I'd love some proof that games (or anything) which use metadata collection end up better. So far just about every one has gotten worse because that mountain of data to sift through takes more time away from the game, or forces it to take different routes just because of "market feeback". It is assumed that it does, but where is the evidence? What ever happened to game makers just making the game the way THEY want, being true to the style and intent they have, and letting gamers decide if they want to play that way or not?
Oh noez, Mojang is going to collect data on how people spend their time in the game, and use it to better the parts we like doing. Oh no, oh no, oh no. The sky is falling. Minecraft is ruined. How will we ever survive if more intensive player feedback is gathered, and minecraft is formed and shaped to be what the majority of people who payed for it want it to be?
The information will be tracking data that'll help influence their development. Truly anonymous information (like "Is he/she playing on the site or launcher?", "Is he/she playing creative?", and "Is he/she playing multiplayer or singleplayer?"). If 90% or more play with the launcher, they may choose to shutdown the app to help with site bandwidth. If a ton of people play multiplayer, they may focus of multiplayer bugs and features more closely. Etc etc.
As for in-game features, I still believe in polling the masses and receiving input from rational players. The metadata will just be statistics for Mojang to see.
And I'm sure an option under your user profile will allow you to opt your data if you want or not.
Mojang isn't some sort of malevolent company and Notch doesn't intend on using the data for evil purposes (or does he?:iapprove:) . Besides, it's probably going to be opt-out, what's the point?
And think: they could have slipped this in with 1.1, without any of us knowing, without our consent, and they decided to do a poll instead. I think you should appreciate that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card-carrying member of USA Archery and the Bathroom Readers' Institute.
In reality the only people I can see disagreeing with this are the hurdurr privacy theft people and those who play on pirated copies of the game.
Actually, if it were "Opt-in" I might be willing to agree to it, since it is giving me the choice. Since it is Opt-out, it is removing my choice in the matter until I decide to specifically decide against it. That is the main problem here on that end.
As mentioned earlier, this sort of thing can also lead to certain aspects, like the web application, being discontinued because it isn't being used by the majority. Great for the majority, but bad for everyone else who maybe preferred it that way.
Assumptions of piracy are also contemptible. Just because I bought a game and decided to support a company doesn't mean I should be forced to send them information about my activity. Legally purchased the game back in Alpha, when it was just one man with this game he was working on. I, and thousands others helped him build his company because we believed in what he was doing. Minecraft gathered the interests of every game maker out there because it was different and didn't have to resort to the same sort of DRM and marketing schemes that they were using. This, all this, does not feel like the Mojang I sponsored, supported.
Actually, if it were "Opt-in" I might be willing to agree to it, since it is giving me the choice. Since it is Opt-out, it is removing my choice in the matter until I decide to specifically decide against it. That is the main problem here on that end.
As mentioned earlier, this sort of thing can also lead to certain aspects, like the web application, being discontinued because it isn't being used by the majority. Great for the majority, but bad for everyone else who maybe preferred it that way.
Assumptions of piracy are also contemptible. Just because I bought a game and decided to support a company doesn't mean I should be forced to send them information about my activity. Legally purchased the game back in Alpha, when it was just one man with this game he was working on. I, and thousands others helped him build his company because we believed in what he was doing. Minecraft gathered the interests of every game maker out there because it was different and didn't have to resort to the same sort of DRM and marketing schemes that they were using. This, all this, does not feel like the Mojang I sponsored, supported.
Actually, it's not really removing the choice at all, if it was removing the choice there would be no "opt-in" or "opt-out" option, it would be there, behind the scenes, the only way to disable it would be to mod it out.
you still have the choice regardless of which side the slider happens to be sitting on.
I do agree with your point on the possibility of features being removed, but so far there is no word about any features being removed.
on your note of piracy, I have also owned the game since alfa (props to alfa bro's.) I don't really see this as a type of forced DRM, but as I said I can see the kids who pirated the game pissing themselves thinking it will kill the pirated versions, I did not actually state it would be there to kill the pirated version, as I'm sure they would find a way around any DRM within a few days anyways.
but as I said I can see the kids who pirated the game pissing themselves thinking it will kill the pirated versions
DRM does something about pirates now? Thought it was just there to control/monitor paying customer's behavior and ability.
By having it initially enabled, it does remove choice since you have to use it once to disable it.
As far as improving the game goes, the countless polls and other things they've done in the past (the whole round vs square sun/moon debate comes to mind) provided more than enough feedback to indicate opinions to those questions they're undecided on. Why change things now? Why use this huge pool of data which potentially can't tell you anything definitive when more focused polls have been so successful? Hell, the very poll about offering this feature has several thousand responses, and from a statistics point of view is a large enough sample for just about anything.
Again, I don't see why DRM has even entered into the discussion, it has no relevance here. DRM is not about collecting gameplay stats, it's about trying to prevent people who illegally pirate software from using it. It is not there to "control/monitor paying customer's behavior and ability."
I'm fine with it as long as there's an option to opt out, the data cannot be used to identify you, and it doesn't alter the actual gameplay experience.
It's not how you play... It's on how most play. As it stands, there isn't any discernible information about how many prefer creative to hardcore, how many play on servers verses SSP, for how long, what system you're using, ect. Meaning that the majority will likely see the greater bulk of these updates while the minority will be left in the dust and slowly dwindle to nothing as more and more features are added for the sake of the majority. As Minecraft is split between the powergamer, the builder, and the casual gamer, expect there to be some bias, and it probably won't be in favor of the most vocal type.
In comparison, going from what information people offer up, or answer in a poll, leads to a more well rounded game because those who are not part of the majority are generally more likely to do things that give their side more of a voice. Sometimes too much information about your playerbase can lead to some very bad decisions as you cater to the majority and slowly exclude the minority, stratifying things further as people become more and more polarized by one change or another. You can see this very thing playing out here constantly in this forum by the way people have been outspoken about various changes even when they've been supportive of similar ones in the past.
@vurunan
That is not really a good thing either. What's next, Facebook style profile pages for our Minecraft character? Do not need for this game. Do not want.
http://twitter.com/#!/notch/status/162177293266075648
not neccesarily it depends on how you interpret the data. they could see that a lot of people play online with others, they could see that as keep the game the way it is now OR lets see where we can make this even better.
it depends on how you interpret the data and if it was me where things are lacking i would try and improve on. and we have yet to see how they plan on interpreting the data yet so only time will tell
Slippery slope slippery slope slippery slope.
Hey, have you ever heard of the Slippery slope fallacy?
Edit: Also, you are right! Improving MineCraft for the majority of players sounds like a really bad thing to do! Especially when it would definitely ruin the game for everyone else!
I hate to break it to some of you, but just because you have a consistent fear of any and every form of data gathering as ultimately being some means of spying on you.. that doesn't make it true.
This kind of hysteria is ridiculous. And that's exactly what it is. Hysterical melodrama. Making mountains out of molehills. Making huge stinks about something very innocent and simple. Founded totally from a position of being far too cynical, and perhaps even fair to say some kind of psychiatric condition on the part of some people. Some kind of paranoia or narcissistic disorder.
The guy above has it right on with Slippery Slope Fallacy. It's always a fallacy. People use it all the time, but it's a **** poor excuse for not doing something.. when the only argument is that it "may" become something worse later.
Ya, believe me.. your system is just loaded with all kinds of juicy data that we all want our hands on. I personally am trying every day to break in and get a look at it!
/rollseyes
You guys are the ones who are claiming sinister intent, or at least sinister possibilities. It's up to YOU to back up those claims, not to others to disprove them.
This is also something that happens far too often online.. where believers of nonsense constantly challenge skeptics to disprove them. But it doesn't work that way. The onus is always on the claimant. You claim sinister intent or desire, well PROVE IT.
Actually, it's not a problem at all. What is a problem is so many people who believe conspiracies and nonsense, making too big a stink over innocent stuff, from their position of extreme paranoia and ignorance..
That is actually making an arguable effect on gaming. It arguably has a negative effect on the entire world. It's sad the way so many stupid conspiracies and ideas have taken root and grown, online. It's actually staggering... what people are willing to believe.
it tells mojang what areas need to be made more fun or rewarding. nuff said
or how long people stay in the nether or how many manage to get to the end of the game.
like i said before it all depends on how you interprit it, so untill they screw up we should at least give Jeb and Jon some confidence based on their stellar performance with the weekly snapshots and 1.1
Hey, I'm just running with what Vagrant0 said:
He's doing a pretty good job of making that sound like a terrible thing when in fact it is not!
Honestly, I don't think anything will ever come of this whole debacle. Notch will add tracking (probably), some people will turn it off, and MineCraft updates will resume as usual. At some point Notch will throw an interesting graph up on his blog and we'll all say, "Well, that's interesting," but it won't actually change anything. I don't think any data collected will actually sway any of the developers into adding or excluding specific features. I mean, come on, look at their track record - 90% of new features come out of the blue anyways, so why would they change now? They're obviously just doing what they want and what they feel is best for MineCraft, and I don't think they're gonna turn that policy around on a dime.
In fairness, it is optional... It's just currently planned to be enabled by default and you have to know about it and where it is to disable it (probably every time you update the game, reinstall from the patcher, or log in using the web application (just like achievements and statistics)). Yep... Entirely optional.
Oh, and I'd love some proof that games (or anything) which use metadata collection end up better. So far just about every one has gotten worse because that mountain of data to sift through takes more time away from the game, or forces it to take different routes just because of "market feeback". It is assumed that it does, but where is the evidence? What ever happened to game makers just making the game the way THEY want, being true to the style and intent they have, and letting gamers decide if they want to play that way or not? It's worked quite well for Mojang till now. Why fix something that isn't broken?
What a bunch of chicken littles >.>
As for in-game features, I still believe in polling the masses and receiving input from rational players. The metadata will just be statistics for Mojang to see.
And I'm sure an option under your user profile will allow you to opt your data if you want or not.
negatives: you get the people who say HUR DURR PRIVACY BREACH.
when in reality the data is taking anonynmous info about your play style/pc hardware.
good sides:
more tailered performance patches (knowing the hardware users play with, they can better aim performance fixes at those hardware types.)
more tailered updates. knowing which features are most used/popular and how they are used allows them to put more directed updates (think GUI updates)
seeing what mods people are playing with would allow them to see what features people want added, and look into it.
In reality the only people I can see disagreeing with this are the hurdurr privacy theft people and those who play on pirated copies of the game.
And think: they could have slipped this in with 1.1, without any of us knowing, without our consent, and they decided to do a poll instead. I think you should appreciate that.
Card-carrying member of USA Archery and the Bathroom Readers' Institute.
Actually, if it were "Opt-in" I might be willing to agree to it, since it is giving me the choice. Since it is Opt-out, it is removing my choice in the matter until I decide to specifically decide against it. That is the main problem here on that end.
As mentioned earlier, this sort of thing can also lead to certain aspects, like the web application, being discontinued because it isn't being used by the majority. Great for the majority, but bad for everyone else who maybe preferred it that way.
Assumptions of piracy are also contemptible. Just because I bought a game and decided to support a company doesn't mean I should be forced to send them information about my activity. Legally purchased the game back in Alpha, when it was just one man with this game he was working on. I, and thousands others helped him build his company because we believed in what he was doing. Minecraft gathered the interests of every game maker out there because it was different and didn't have to resort to the same sort of DRM and marketing schemes that they were using. This, all this, does not feel like the Mojang I sponsored, supported.
Actually, it's not really removing the choice at all, if it was removing the choice there would be no "opt-in" or "opt-out" option, it would be there, behind the scenes, the only way to disable it would be to mod it out.
you still have the choice regardless of which side the slider happens to be sitting on.
I do agree with your point on the possibility of features being removed, but so far there is no word about any features being removed.
on your note of piracy, I have also owned the game since alfa (props to alfa bro's.) I don't really see this as a type of forced DRM, but as I said I can see the kids who pirated the game pissing themselves thinking it will kill the pirated versions, I did not actually state it would be there to kill the pirated version, as I'm sure they would find a way around any DRM within a few days anyways.
DRM does something about pirates now? Thought it was just there to control/monitor paying customer's behavior and ability.
By having it initially enabled, it does remove choice since you have to use it once to disable it.
As far as improving the game goes, the countless polls and other things they've done in the past (the whole round vs square sun/moon debate comes to mind) provided more than enough feedback to indicate opinions to those questions they're undecided on. Why change things now? Why use this huge pool of data which potentially can't tell you anything definitive when more focused polls have been so successful? Hell, the very poll about offering this feature has several thousand responses, and from a statistics point of view is a large enough sample for just about anything.
Erm...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management#Computer_games
In particular that part about "Persistent online authentication"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management#Metadata
May want to read and be informed yourself.