Wow you just proved me that you don't understand the difference between a "Bug" and a "Unfinished Feature".
A bug is a code error that allows something that should not happen, happen.
A bug in skyrim: Ragdolls being too light.
A bug in minecraft: Iten duplication, not intended.
A unfinished feature is when you put something in the game, but it is not FINISHED. I'll explain it to you slowly.
Notch said he would add a level-up system, where you should be able to choose upgrades with skill points you get for killing mobs, like better mining or something of the like [trying to find the tweet on this]. This was not implemented, but hey, we can level up, even though it does nothing, So I'ts cool right?
Notch said we could copy maps and change zoom scales right before they where implemented. The game released and we can't.
Nothing like this happened with skyrim.
Any sort of difference between the two is minimal to be. A bug is unintended, while an unfinished feature can be viewed subjectively. Personally, I would dislike skills, so to me, the XP is fine as is. As for you, it is unfinished as you seem to want it.
So, these are only unfinished features because he said something about them? He either decided he didn't want them or forgot about them. But, according to you, Notch is expected to deliver on every single thing he says. Think about it for a moment. Does not being able to zoom a map in break the game?
And once the "new game" feeling wears off, you'll start seeing some things wrong with the game. It happened with Minecraft, it will happen with Skyrim.
Any sort of difference between the two is minimal to be. A bug is unintended, while an unfinished feature can be viewed subjectively. Personally, I would dislike skills, so to me, the XP is fine as is. As for you, it is unfinished as you seem to want it.
So, these are only unfinished features because he said something about them? He either decided he didn't want them or forgot about them. But, according to you, Notch is expected to deliver on every single thing he says. Think about it for a moment. Does not being able to zoom a map in break the game?
And once the "new game" feeling wears off, you'll start seeing some things wrong with the game. It happened with Minecraft, it will happen with Skyrim.
I DO WANT THE SKILLS, BUT THEY ARE NOT THERE? GOD CAN'T YOU REALIZE THIS? If he don't want to implement something anymore, he SHOULD say "Hey, we will not be adding this anymore, because this". And not pretend it never happened. [EDIT:] Sorry, I didnt understand you text. But what is the point on putting levels since they do nothing?
I only have one more post, until you bring something worth attention, guess I won't be replying, and you still have to show me a unfinished feature on skyrim.
Yes, if a game developer says the game will have this, you pay for it, and they don't do it, it's scamming.
EDIT:
So what is your point exactly? I'll play along for a minute and assume for the sake of argument that MC is not 'finished'. Why is this is a problem?
There are numerous examples of things Notch said he would like to add or how features should be implemented or expanded on in the future that ended up being different from the original vision. These statements or discussions he's tweeted and surely read feedback on are at the formative stages of a feature. They are not blueprints or promises. Reality and feasibility often get in the way implementation. Sounds to me like you're splitting hairs.
My point is that the game is still on beta, but Notch is charging full price, and if you don't think this is wrong, why are you even replying?
Wow you just proved me that you don't understand the difference between a "Bug" and a "Unfinished Feature".
A bug is a code error that allows something that should not happen, happen.
A bug in skyrim: Ragdolls being too light.
A bug in minecraft: Iten duplication, not intended.
A unfinished feature is when you put something in the game, but it is not FINISHED. I'll explain it to you slowly.
Notch said he would add a level-up system, where you should be able to choose upgrades with skill points you get for killing mobs, like better mining or something of the like [trying to find the tweet on this]. This was not implemented, but hey, we can level up, even though it does nothing, So I'ts cool right?
Notch said we could copy maps and change zoom scales right before they where implemented. The game released and we can't.
Nothing like this happened with skyrim.
So what is your point exactly? I'll play along for a minute and assume for the sake of argument that MC is not 'finished'. Why is this is a problem?
There are numerous examples of things Notch said he would like to add or how features should be implemented or expanded on in the future that ended up being different from the original vision. These statements or discussions he's tweeted and surely read feedback on are at the formative stages of a feature. They are not blueprints or promises. Reality and feasibility often get in the way implementation. Sounds to me like you're splitting hairs.
Any sort of difference between the two is minimal to be. A bug is unintended, while an unfinished feature can be viewed subjectively. Personally, I would dislike skills, so to me, the XP is fine as is. As for you, it is unfinished as you seem to want it.
uhh no its not subjective, thats completely retarded. there could be a feature that turned you into a **** flinging howler monkey when you got to level 10 but if you got there and couldnt transform itd be an unfinished feature, no matter how many people wanted or didnt want it.
I DO WANT THE SKILLS, BUT THEY ARE NOT THERE? GOD CAN'T YOU REALIZE THIS? If he don't want to implement something anymore, he SHOULD say "Hey, we will not be adding this anymore, because this". And not pretend it never happened. [EDIT:] Sorry, I didnt understand you text. But what is the point on putting levels since they do nothing?
I only have one more post, until you bring something worth attention, guess I won't be replying, and you still have to show me a unfinished feature on skyrim.
Yes, if a game developer says the game will have this, you pay for it, and they don't do it, it's scamming.
Well, I'm sorry that Notch has to detail every single part of his decisions for your gratification.
(Protip for the ones too lazy to look at the wiki: Levels let you enchant)
1. Crafting requires you to either A. Try thousands of combinations in the hope of randomly making something or B. Have the wiki open in the background at all times to be able to play the game.
2. NPCs are totally pointless, they don't even give xp.
3. You can get stuck in The End.
4. Using Nether portals for fast travel is still impossible, yet this was the very purpose the Nether was created for.
5. Still no way to load a Survival world in Creative or vice-versa without managing world files directly.
6. 1.8.1 broke as much as it added. Biomes are awful now, especially swamps and the lack of beaches, plus huge oceans with no reason to cross or even swim in them meaning wasted map space. 'Survival' playstyle totally destroyed to make way for 'Adventure' which is arguably not in the spirit of MineCraft atall, by making caves sprawl for miles giving lots of easy materials, and all too common mineshafts providing a cheaty underground wood source. Combat is rewarded with xp yet Mining and Crafting (supposedly the foundations of the game) are not.
7. It would be easy to not even notice that Minecraft has been fully released. One tiny post on the forums that was quickly hidden by a load of less relevant Minecon stuff is the only evidence, nothing on minecraft.net, no new methods of distribution, no advertisement, nothing to make it stand out as anything other than just being 1.9 with added hype.
8. Promised mod support never happened.
1. crafting should be this way, minecraft is a game of adventure not having some kind of recipe chart a new player can look at and make everything he needs.
2.Npcs shouldnt have to do anything, I dont get why they should have to. They live in their cities, and everyone would probably complain if they did anything else anyways.
3. oh no you can get stuck, the game is more realistic now. dont fight the dragonw here the portal is, hint hint.
4. The nether was not created for fast travel, I dont know what you are talking about. This was an incentive discovered by players. If you know anything about minecraft, you will know that the nether is supposed to be an entire new place that you can explore and build in if you get bored with the regualr world
5. This shouldnt really be complained about, seems like its something that 99 percent of people dont do. Creative should stay in creative IMO and if you want creative in survival im sure there are mods.
6. Only thing I really agree with you is mining not giving any exp, other than that I think the biomes look rather cool now and more randomized, endless forests get insanely boring to a normal person. The huge oceans are an incentive for exploration, but I bet you wouldnt know what that is since you hate adventure.
7. Minecraft really never advertised, so that is probably not going to happen. And I think everyone who plays minecraft knows that 1.0 released, thats all that should matter.
8. Mod support should not be seen as something Mojang is obligated to give us. Mod supporting will come later, as Mojang was working on game content and not addons for the past couple months.
Check the full price of these games. Especially Aquaria, wich is far more beautiful [The default textures are goddamm awlful] and better developed, and a lot bigger in development size. And is cheaper. Every single on of them is cheaper than minecraft.
And I'll say it again: MC started out indie, it no longer even resembles that definition. Compared to other retail games with similar levels of popularity, MC is dirt cheap.
Yes, if a game developer says the game will have this, you pay for it, and they don't do it, it's scamming.
No, it isn't.
My point is that the game is still on beta, but Notch is charging full price, and if you don't think this is wrong, why are you even replying?
Because this is a discussion forum. I am discussing the topic at hand. If you don't like what I have to say or that I'm replying then that's your problem. The game is not still 'on' beta simply because it doesn't meet your personal vision of complete.
20 dollars for a game thats constantly updated is very cheap. All you skyrim fanboys, thats 1/3 of its price. I dont think you guys understand what money is.
humble bundle has a bunch of games that are very boring IMO, I wouldnt probably buy any of them individually. And its for charity, so why would prices matter?
I hate when idiots like you post something like this.
20 dollars for a game thats constantly updated is very cheap. All you skyrim fanboys, thats 1/3 of its price. I dont think you guys understand what money is.
humble bundle has a bunch of games that are very boring IMO, I wouldnt probably buy any of them individually. And its for charity, so why would prices matter?
I hate when idiots like you post something like this.
He was pointing out a game site? I thought it was some brand of gum. LOL
Thus why I didn't even bother to click on it.
20 dollars for a game thats constantly updated is very cheap. All you skyrim fanboys, thats 1/3 of its price. I dont think you guys understand what money is.
Ill be waiting a few months, then ill pick it up for like 20 dollars or something. after all, i did get oblivion for 7 dollars.
Im using the term DLC to apply to more games, and to the fact its new content post release.
Ah, well DLC doesn't really have a standard definition. To me, it implies optional content available for purchase, usually a significant addition. Continued updates/patches to MC will be free and likely include both bugfixes, feature enhancement and new content.
He was pointing out a game site? I thought it was some brand of gum. LOL
Thus why I didn't even bother to click on it.
Its some bundle of indie games that a website is selling, and you can get it for donating whatever you want to some charity... making a comparison to minecraft is really stupid, as most good people would donate for more than minecraft's worth in dollars to get the games.
Well, I'm sorry that Notch has to detail every single part of his decisions for your gratification.
(Protip for the ones too lazy to look at the wiki: Levels let you enchant)
Ok, It's my last post, as I need a "approved post" to remove this limitation [Don't even know how this works, never bothered to post here]. I'll answer this and try to better explain my point, as it seems no one is getting it. I don't ask you to agree, but I'm not doing assumptions neither making up things. I love minecraft, I'm unhappy how things are going, but I'm not trying to make you dislike it on anything like that. I'm trying to show you all what is wrong with minecraft development, and why.
Yes, Levels are used to enchant, I know this, I've read every patch notes since beta launched, I do check minecrafts updates often, even if I don't play it that often anymore.
First, minecraft was in beta testing. What does this mean? It means potential costumer should be able to sample how the software is going along. Sometimes beta testing is closed, only a handful of people have access, or open, everyone have access. The point is to everytime something new is implemented, you have a lot of people to test, so you can track bugs, and AFTER this, implement new things. Rinse and repeate until the core software is finished.
We will never know what a core Minecraft should be, as this can only be answered by Mojang, and sincerely,[MyOpinion] it seems neither Notch knows[/MyOpinion].
When you release a software/game, the core should be working. Let's assume whatever was on 1.9 was core, just for the sake of simplicity.
Maps did not have the features intended, npcs did not have the features intendend, and EXP was not working as intended [No skills points]. And there were a lot of bugs. Lots.
So next step is to fix the bugs, and FINISH whatever is ALREADY implemented. You can't fix every single bug, but thats ok, it is what bugfixes and patches are for.
THEN someone can release the software. It will probably have a few bugs and stuff, but it can be fixed in usually a week or two, depending on the software.
Now let's see what happened with minecraft:
1.9 kicks in, lots of features added, most of them [MyOpinion] useless [/MyOpinion], but still features. Some features added from previous updates still haven't been finished [maps], but thats okay, we are still in beta after all.
Then Jeb starts the pre-release policy to test a update before it goes live, which is awesome, and I praise Mojang for this.
Then, next update will be the RELEASE [Core finished] Version.
Minecon happens [something most people didn't want, check his tumblr].
Then we get Minecraft 1.0 RELEASE version. We get a lot of new features, previous features were not finished, bugs from 1.9 STILL HAPPEN, and Notch get's a vacation when he should be fixing bugs after launch.
This. Is. Wrong.
People paid for the game so Notch could work more time in it [He quit his previous job just to work solely on minecraft], in purely good faith. Then vacations, vacations, vacations. [NotOnTopicRant] This is unethic, lazy work [/NotOnTopicRant]. And now he's charging full price for it.
I'm sorry if you can't see how wrong this is, but I do. If you don't agree with me, thats fine, but you can't deny this happened.
As soon as I'm able, I'll post more on topic. Until then, I may reply with edit's if anyone is interested.
Quick Edit:
To everyone claiming that Minecraft is not "Indie" anymore, please start to read more about indie games. Even though there is no clear definitions, some things apply:
No publishes [Check]
Low cost production [Check, this does not mean low profit]
So, how does you compare Minecraft with Skyrim, a triple A game, with millions of dollars as production cost, high level models and animamtions, while everything in Minecraft are BLOCKS?
20 dollars for a game thats constantly updated is very cheap. All you skyrim fanboys, thats 1/3 of its price. I dont think you guys understand what money is.
Well, it's going to be nearly $30, and only one person works on it full-time...so really it isn't that cheap. There are a lot of other, cheaper games that are constantly worked on by more than one person.
Notch didn't keep most of his promises regarding the content that would be in the full version. He could have kept them easily by hiring MORE THAN ONE PERSON to work on minecraft. He didn't and so Minecraft suffers. Minecraft also is rather directionless, with new features not blending well into old features (e.g. monsters balanced with enchants in mind when enchants are a late game item, ore rarity not always having anything to do with value, the Nether not having much content that adds depth to the game, almost no reason to explore in the adventure update, useless NPCs, etc).
Minecraft does one thing and really only one thing well. It allows self-expression via manipulating the position of blocks. That's it. Of course, that doesn't make it a good game. Plenty of programs allow self-expression and aren't games. Designing houses, castles, caves, and such is fun and all, but that doesn't make a GAME...that's just an art program (which of course can be fun to use, not all things that are fun are games). It is a fact that the game-like aspects, the ones where there is a chance of failure, the ones that require some level of skill to achieve success, etc, are rather poorly done.
The point is Notch said a bunch of things would happen and didn't do enough to make sure they would happen. It was as easy as hiring more programmers, which he could afford thanks to the community's generous support of the potential of Minecraft. Instead he pocketed the money and spent some on completely different games that he wasn't working on before. Only a small token went to Minecraft itself. That's not cool.
Any sort of difference between the two is minimal to be. A bug is unintended, while an unfinished feature can be viewed subjectively. Personally, I would dislike skills, so to me, the XP is fine as is. As for you, it is unfinished as you seem to want it.
So, these are only unfinished features because he said something about them? He either decided he didn't want them or forgot about them. But, according to you, Notch is expected to deliver on every single thing he says. Think about it for a moment. Does not being able to zoom a map in break the game?
And once the "new game" feeling wears off, you'll start seeing some things wrong with the game. It happened with Minecraft, it will happen with Skyrim.
I DO WANT THE SKILLS, BUT THEY ARE NOT THERE? GOD CAN'T YOU REALIZE THIS? If he don't want to implement something anymore, he SHOULD say "Hey, we will not be adding this anymore, because this". And not pretend it never happened. [EDIT:] Sorry, I didnt understand you text. But what is the point on putting levels since they do nothing?
I only have one more post, until you bring something worth attention, guess I won't be replying, and you still have to show me a unfinished feature on skyrim.
Yes, if a game developer says the game will have this, you pay for it, and they don't do it, it's scamming.
EDIT:
My point is that the game is still on beta, but Notch is charging full price, and if you don't think this is wrong, why are you even replying?
So what is your point exactly? I'll play along for a minute and assume for the sake of argument that MC is not 'finished'. Why is this is a problem?
There are numerous examples of things Notch said he would like to add or how features should be implemented or expanded on in the future that ended up being different from the original vision. These statements or discussions he's tweeted and surely read feedback on are at the formative stages of a feature. They are not blueprints or promises. Reality and feasibility often get in the way implementation. Sounds to me like you're splitting hairs.
were entitled ass holes for expecting a finished game when its advertised as fully released? the **** has the world come to?
uhh no its not subjective, thats completely retarded. there could be a feature that turned you into a **** flinging howler monkey when you got to level 10 but if you got there and couldnt transform itd be an unfinished feature, no matter how many people wanted or didnt want it.
Well, I'm sorry that Notch has to detail every single part of his decisions for your gratification.
(Protip for the ones too lazy to look at the wiki: Levels let you enchant)
1. crafting should be this way, minecraft is a game of adventure not having some kind of recipe chart a new player can look at and make everything he needs.
2.Npcs shouldnt have to do anything, I dont get why they should have to. They live in their cities, and everyone would probably complain if they did anything else anyways.
3. oh no you can get stuck, the game is more realistic now. dont fight the dragonw here the portal is, hint hint.
4. The nether was not created for fast travel, I dont know what you are talking about. This was an incentive discovered by players. If you know anything about minecraft, you will know that the nether is supposed to be an entire new place that you can explore and build in if you get bored with the regualr world
5. This shouldnt really be complained about, seems like its something that 99 percent of people dont do. Creative should stay in creative IMO and if you want creative in survival im sure there are mods.
6. Only thing I really agree with you is mining not giving any exp, other than that I think the biomes look rather cool now and more randomized, endless forests get insanely boring to a normal person. The huge oceans are an incentive for exploration, but I bet you wouldnt know what that is since you hate adventure.
7. Minecraft really never advertised, so that is probably not going to happen. And I think everyone who plays minecraft knows that 1.0 released, thats all that should matter.
8. Mod support should not be seen as something Mojang is obligated to give us. Mod supporting will come later, as Mojang was working on game content and not addons for the past couple months.
And I'll say it again: MC started out indie, it no longer even resembles that definition. Compared to other retail games with similar levels of popularity, MC is dirt cheap.
No, it isn't.
Because this is a discussion forum. I am discussing the topic at hand. If you don't like what I have to say or that I'm replying then that's your problem. The game is not still 'on' beta simply because it doesn't meet your personal vision of complete.
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 Still has bugs!
How the hell does future DLC even justify releasing an unfinished game?
20 dollars for a game thats constantly updated is very cheap. All you skyrim fanboys, thats 1/3 of its price. I dont think you guys understand what money is.
humble bundle has a bunch of games that are very boring IMO, I wouldnt probably buy any of them individually. And its for charity, so why would prices matter?
I hate when idiots like you post something like this.
Who said anything about DLC?
He was pointing out a game site? I thought it was some brand of gum. LOL
Thus why I didn't even bother to click on it.
Ill be waiting a few months, then ill pick it up for like 20 dollars or something. after all, i did get oblivion for 7 dollars.
Im using the term DLC to apply to more games, and to the fact its new content post release.
Ah, well DLC doesn't really have a standard definition. To me, it implies optional content available for purchase, usually a significant addition. Continued updates/patches to MC will be free and likely include both bugfixes, feature enhancement and new content.
Its some bundle of indie games that a website is selling, and you can get it for donating whatever you want to some charity... making a comparison to minecraft is really stupid, as most good people would donate for more than minecraft's worth in dollars to get the games.
OH JUST DOWNLOAD A PATCH YOU...YOU...YOU...
DOUBLE WHINER!
Ok, It's my last post, as I need a "approved post" to remove this limitation [Don't even know how this works, never bothered to post here]. I'll answer this and try to better explain my point, as it seems no one is getting it. I don't ask you to agree, but I'm not doing assumptions neither making up things. I love minecraft, I'm unhappy how things are going, but I'm not trying to make you dislike it on anything like that. I'm trying to show you all what is wrong with minecraft development, and why.
Yes, Levels are used to enchant, I know this, I've read every patch notes since beta launched, I do check minecrafts updates often, even if I don't play it that often anymore.
First, minecraft was in beta testing. What does this mean? It means potential costumer should be able to sample how the software is going along. Sometimes beta testing is closed, only a handful of people have access, or open, everyone have access. The point is to everytime something new is implemented, you have a lot of people to test, so you can track bugs, and AFTER this, implement new things. Rinse and repeate until the core software is finished.
We will never know what a core Minecraft should be, as this can only be answered by Mojang, and sincerely,[MyOpinion] it seems neither Notch knows[/MyOpinion].
When you release a software/game, the core should be working. Let's assume whatever was on 1.9 was core, just for the sake of simplicity.
Maps did not have the features intended, npcs did not have the features intendend, and EXP was not working as intended [No skills points]. And there were a lot of bugs. Lots.
So next step is to fix the bugs, and FINISH whatever is ALREADY implemented. You can't fix every single bug, but thats ok, it is what bugfixes and patches are for.
THEN someone can release the software. It will probably have a few bugs and stuff, but it can be fixed in usually a week or two, depending on the software.
Now let's see what happened with minecraft:
1.9 kicks in, lots of features added, most of them [MyOpinion] useless [/MyOpinion], but still features. Some features added from previous updates still haven't been finished [maps], but thats okay, we are still in beta after all.
Then Jeb starts the pre-release policy to test a update before it goes live, which is awesome, and I praise Mojang for this.
Then, next update will be the RELEASE [Core finished] Version.
Minecon happens [something most people didn't want, check his tumblr].
Then we get Minecraft 1.0 RELEASE version. We get a lot of new features, previous features were not finished, bugs from 1.9 STILL HAPPEN, and Notch get's a vacation when he should be fixing bugs after launch.
This. Is. Wrong.
People paid for the game so Notch could work more time in it [He quit his previous job just to work solely on minecraft], in purely good faith. Then vacations, vacations, vacations. [NotOnTopicRant] This is unethic, lazy work [/NotOnTopicRant]. And now he's charging full price for it.
I'm sorry if you can't see how wrong this is, but I do. If you don't agree with me, thats fine, but you can't deny this happened.
As soon as I'm able, I'll post more on topic. Until then, I may reply with edit's if anyone is interested.
Quick Edit:
To everyone claiming that Minecraft is not "Indie" anymore, please start to read more about indie games. Even though there is no clear definitions, some things apply:
No publishes [Check]
Low cost production [Check, this does not mean low profit]
So, how does you compare Minecraft with Skyrim, a triple A game, with millions of dollars as production cost, high level models and animamtions, while everything in Minecraft are BLOCKS?
You DON'T compare them.
Well, it's going to be nearly $30, and only one person works on it full-time...so really it isn't that cheap. There are a lot of other, cheaper games that are constantly worked on by more than one person.
Notch didn't keep most of his promises regarding the content that would be in the full version. He could have kept them easily by hiring MORE THAN ONE PERSON to work on minecraft. He didn't and so Minecraft suffers. Minecraft also is rather directionless, with new features not blending well into old features (e.g. monsters balanced with enchants in mind when enchants are a late game item, ore rarity not always having anything to do with value, the Nether not having much content that adds depth to the game, almost no reason to explore in the adventure update, useless NPCs, etc).
Minecraft does one thing and really only one thing well. It allows self-expression via manipulating the position of blocks. That's it. Of course, that doesn't make it a good game. Plenty of programs allow self-expression and aren't games. Designing houses, castles, caves, and such is fun and all, but that doesn't make a GAME...that's just an art program (which of course can be fun to use, not all things that are fun are games). It is a fact that the game-like aspects, the ones where there is a chance of failure, the ones that require some level of skill to achieve success, etc, are rather poorly done.
The point is Notch said a bunch of things would happen and didn't do enough to make sure they would happen. It was as easy as hiring more programmers, which he could afford thanks to the community's generous support of the potential of Minecraft. Instead he pocketed the money and spent some on completely different games that he wasn't working on before. Only a small token went to Minecraft itself. That's not cool.