I thought the enchantment tables would work as a complete list of perks that you can buy with experience.
It doesn't make sense to me why its random and defeats the whole purpose of having skills.
I'm better off just getting 2 or 3 levels of experience and buying something from the enchantment table.
I've been feeling more and more like it's more worth my while to get a ton of enchantments for low levels than to save up too. I don't know whether that's just something I believe for no reason, or whether the math actually works out such that it's more efficient that way.
It's a side perk for now. Look at time spent vs. rewards. Mining and building as you always have will likely produce more results faster than farming for an enchant and then doing the job. It was NEVER meant to be an absolute reward system.
I can likely find more diamonds in the same time it takes someone to farm for Fortune and then mine for diamonds
I can mine a longer tunnel than someone who farmed for a high efficiency pick before tunneling
I can build that grass ladder and get grass in places WAY faster than someone who first waits for a silk touch enchant.
I can easily spend my time mining and finding more than enough materials to replace my tools as I use them, so unbreaking III or IV isn't worth it in that time.
Essentially, It doesn't pay off to sit in front of a mob spawner grinding out levels for an enchant when you could just get the job done.
Like it or not, the suggestion to treat it as a side perk is better. It's also the more efficient way to get things done.
Really... who ever said you HAD to get the right enchants before getting the job done. You don't. So don't do it. Just grab it as it comes.
Perhaps when boss fights are implemented you will have a method to get experience boosts and you can farm out enchants then.
It's a side perk for now. Look at time spent vs. rewards. Mining and building as you always have will likely produce more results faster than farming for an enchant and then doing the job. It was NEVER meant to be an absolute reward system.
I can likely find more diamonds in the same time it takes someone to farm for Fortune and then mine for diamonds
I can mine a longer tunnel than someone who farmed for a high efficiency pick before tunneling
I can build that grass ladder and get grass in places WAY faster than someone who first waits for a silk touch enchant.
I can easily spend my time mining and finding more than enough materials to replace my tools as I use them, so unbreaking III or IV isn't worth it in that time.
Essentially, It doesn't pay off to sit in front of a mob spawner grinding out levels for an enchant when you could just get the job done.
Like it or not, the suggestion to treat it as a side perk is better. It's also the more efficient way to get things done.
Really... who ever said you HAD to get the right enchants before getting the job done. You don't. So don't do it. Just grab it as it comes.
Ah, that's exactly what I meant. Refreshing to see this perspective on the forums! I honestly haven't seen it until now. Enchantment is something to enjoy as a bonus, not depend on or strive for. I might strive for a really good enchantment out of novelty, but then it fits into the Too Awesome to Use category, or worse, the Awesome, But Impractical land of no return.
I usually stick with enchants that cost 5 skill points. I have enchanted a couple diamond picks with Unbreaking II and Efficiency II (two perks for just 5 points). :biggrin.gif:
The randomness makes no sense. For example if I'm planning to do a large underwater project, it would be nice to work towards the specific task of getting a helmet with the Respiration enchantment.
The randomness is silly. Imagine moving in random directions when you press to go forward, or randomly swinging your sword or pickaxe when you meant to fire an arrow. It's dumb.
I have not seen anywhere Notch mentioning that our character's are wizards so I see no immediate reason to think we should have complete mastery over something as strange (to the character) as the enchanting table. Not much of a story to Minecraft really but you can however notice you start (most times) in a clean location, in a world that is mostly familiar. Mostly.
To me, I personally see it as a Riven kind of deal: you wake up in a place you don't know with no real idea of what is going on. The world itself you find yourself in is not so alien but the things you find are not always immediately recognizable or easy to figure out. You must must make your own sense of things, especially the enchanting table that uses a foreign language. I'm not 100% up to date on potions but it would make sense for them to be partially random as well. You could even go so far as to bring up Redstone. All our characters can make of it is that while mining (or even just touching) it, it lights up. Could be some form of power source should be rather easy to deduce. Still, there is not much more we can do with it than use dust in an archaic hand spread line to be used as conduits and power sources.
It all leads to a story of our own instead that of another. The land features we explore, the tools we create and upgrade, our creations carved and created of the land and our labor, all the way up to a strange room in a strange place that has strange writing on it. There is a book that we fiddle with and a new tool of sorts is born to which our story can branch and grow more with.
Even as a SMP server host, I have only kept up with the 1.9 changes so much as to their general intentions and usage so as to keep the future our worlds in consideration. My own personal story I want to develop naturally and so I plan to find these things out first hand and on the spot, because that is when my spirit races and my mind comes alive with nifty new things to try with something newly discovered.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions as everyone has their own likes and dislikes. My only complaint is how much people seem to try to dictate massive changes to a game being created by another person, another person that had an idea of their own of what the major points of the game would be.
TL;DR
There is none. If you can't bother to be up on everything pertaining to something you feel so strongly about then you diminish your own passion and reason to be involved.
I suppose the reason people are upset that enchantments are completely random that lack of control is very uncommon in minecraft. Minecraft very much about the player choosing a task and then having to freedom to that task with very little limitations. Want to tear down that mountain, completely possible. Want to build a gigantic mob tower to gather stockpiles of resources, only a few hours away. Want to create your own underground city, or build a large floating island, all possible if you put the effort into it because the player has tremendous control over his/her world. When a creature was introduced that could break this control, when it was able to actively change the players world without the players input. Time they've invested into their buildings, the monuments to their control over the world counld suddenly be damaged without any input by them and that made quite a few people upset.
When it comes to random enchanments, its not simply a redeem your points here but players must; find 5 diamonds, make a pick, find or make obsidian, mine 4 blocks of said obsidian, then create a book. Only now you can redeem these points you've accumulated, and to get any higher level enchantments you need to farm out many more reeds and wood to make the bookcase set up, possibly even redstone and sticky pistons as well. After players put all that effort into setting up the system in which they can redeem the points, they feel like they should control what comes out, because of all the other things they do control, because of all the effort they put into creating that enchating table, and because of all the effort they went though to get those exp points. You can see how its rather difficult for most to see it simply as a occasional bonus system when players spend a lot of effort just to build the table, even more just to get mid level enchantments, when these are the players who spend so much time exercising their control on their world through; the building they construct, tree farms planted, mob spawner traps set up, domesticating animals, constructing elaborate redstone circuts, etc.
I think that each enchantment should have a certain "cost" in levels. You would get random enchantments but their values would always add up to the levels you spent. You might get one awesome enchantment or several mediocre ones, but you should always get your levels' worth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
Im not sure I understand the protection enchantment, I have enchanted my armor with the protection enchantment and have jumped of the top of the map to the ground about 3 times and my armor hasnt taken any damage. Is this what the enchantment is supposed to do? The wiki says it converts environmental damage to armor damage but my armor wont damage.
See to me, the essence of progress in Minecraft is building the capacity to do more things. For example, iron isn't just for mining faster, it's for being able to mine the better ores. Diamond is for being able to mine obsidian and make Nether gates. Digging a mine lets you obtain those ores. Building farms gives you a supply of materials.
From that perspective, the only enchantments that are truly a new step are Silk Touch and Respiration, because they allow you to do things you actually couldn't before (especially Silk Touch).
Also, it means that I'm not really feeling the "enchantments as rewards" concept. Minecraft isn't about doing the quest or scoring high, it's about setting a goal and then figuring out what you need to do to accomplish it. You don't just randomly hit stone until you get iron as a reward, you go out and look for it, whether than means spelunking, mining, or even surface exploration. And when you do get iron, it isn't a random tool, it's the tool you choose to make out of it.
That's all well and good, OP, and it's fine for stuff like fortune/durability. But take, for example, silk touch. You want to have a hallway made out of ore? You want to build a house out of White Stone, and take on that Ender Dragon so that you can get home and build it as a monument to your victory? Tough luck if you don't get silk touch on your first effort, because you're gonna have to grind through at least another 30 levels to get back there. The code is indecipherable, so even if it's a good idea to put in the time to make sure you're picking the right enchantment, it's not an option.
Bottom line, taking and accepting what you get is fine up to a certain point. But when you get actual features as sought-after as silk touch that you work the whole game for, you should have a way to know what you're getting if you look hard enough.
Oh maybe you were referring to the Standard Galactic Alphabet. The enchantment phrasing in the book even when translated has no relation whatsoever to the enchantment you get.
I found only a couple of these really good enchantments, while I got Efficiency II/Efficiency III painfully often compared to my best enchantment.
The above link basically explains all the results you have been getting and how they relate to the code. For example even if you are at the right range of levels for getting silk touch the odds of getting silk touch compared to other tool enchantments is 1 in 18. The odds for getting an efficiency enchantment are 10 in 18. Higher levels will increase the odds of getting double/triple/quad enchantments which will in turn increase the odds of getting the elusive ones.
I've looked at what the link above had to say about silk touch and even at level 50 with gold tools (the best material for receiving enchantments) the odds of getting it on your tool in 1 attempt are less than 1 in 5.
Basically, all it comes down to is if the RNGs are decide to give you a break...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When no one was looking, the Endermen took forty blocks.
They took 40 blocks. That’s as many as four tens. And that’s horrible.
That's actually a really good idea, holy crap! It would definitely upset people who like to grind for their experience, but the idea of getting a lump of experience for destroying the spawner appeals to me a lot.
the problem with this is that the game would have to keep track of a lot more. for every monster you kill, every single time, the game has to check whether it came from a spawner, and give exp accordingly
Bottom line, taking and accepting what you get is fine up to a certain point. But when you get actual features as sought-after as silk touch that you work the whole game for, you should have a way to know what you're getting if you look hard enough.
I agree with this line, but I disagree as to where the problem lies. I believe that the problem is in the players, who seek-after the high level enchantments. That's the point I've been trying to illustrate: Considering the way the system works, it's not meant to be sought-after. It's meant to be like winning the lottery. Sure, you can increase your odds, but there's no guarantee. If I got upset every time I lost the lottery and called the lotto system flawed, I'd look a bit like a lunatic. I'd say the fact that a player can so directly affect the odds is a boon per se. Most game mechanics that involve RNGs can't be manipulated, such as the contents of a dungeon chest.
The randomness was implemented so that players would lose some control when it came to enchantment; a fact that I don't think a lot of players have accepted, or are used to yet.
Also, it means that I'm not really feeling the "enchantments as rewards" concept. Minecraft isn't about doing the quest or scoring high, it's about setting a goal and then figuring out what you need to do to accomplish it. You don't just randomly hit stone until you get iron as a reward, you go out and look for it, whether than means spelunking, mining, or even surface exploration. And when you do get iron, it isn't a random tool, it's the tool you choose to make out of it.
I disagree with your statement that finding iron is not a random experience. Like enchantment, the player can increase their odds of finding iron by mining at the right altitude and using techniques like branch mining or searching through pre-existing caves, but the exact locations of the ore are determined randomly. The randomness has generous parameters, but it's still random. If we're creating a parallel to enchantment, then finding iron would be the equivalent to acquiring an enchantment, and in both cases, the player is free to use their newly-found utensil as they choose.
However, I'm not against some tweaks to the rarity or frequency of certain effects, like maqhem started to get into. I just don't think that there should ever be a sure thing. Sure, it might be convenient, but it wouldn't be an improvement upon the existing mechanic; rather, it would be scrapping it and replacing it with a different one. As I see things, this system is very unique to Minecraft and a step in an exciting direction. It means that for all players, getting those high-level enchantments is a moment to celebrate; its "novelty" for lack of a better word would never wear off, like finding diamonds or dungeons has for a lot of veteran players.
I agree with this line, but I disagree as to where the problem lies. I believe that the problem is in the players, who seek-after the high level enchantments. That's the point I've been trying to illustrate: Considering the way the system works, it's not meant to be sought-after. It's meant to be like winning the lottery. Sure, you can increase your odds, but there's no guarantee. If I got upset every time I lost the lottery and called the lotto system flawed, I'd look a bit like a lunatic. I'd say the fact that a player can so directly affect the odds is a boon per se. Most game mechanics that involve RNGs can't be manipulated, such as the contents of a dungeon chest.
The randomness was implemented so that players would lose some control when it came to enchantment; a fact that I don't think a lot of players have accepted, or are used to yet.
I disagree with your statement that finding iron is not a random experience. Like enchantment, the player can increase their odds of finding iron by mining at the right altitude and using techniques like branch mining or searching through pre-existing caves, but the exact locations of the ore are determined randomly. The randomness has generous parameters, but it's still random. If we're creating a parallel to enchantment, then finding iron would be the equivalent to acquiring an enchantment, and in both cases, the player is free to use their newly-found utensil as they choose.
However, I'm not against some tweaks to the rarity or frequency of certain effects, like maqhem started to get into. I just don't think that there should ever be a sure thing. Sure, it might be convenient, but it wouldn't be an improvement upon the existing mechanic; rather, it would be scrapping it and replacing it with a different one. As I see things, this system is very unique to Minecraft and a step in an exciting direction. It means that for all players, getting those high-level enchantments is a moment to celebrate; its "novelty" for lack of a better word would never wear off, like finding diamonds or dungeons has for a lot of veteran players.
There is a very fundamental, key difference between mining for ores and enchanting. I wrote an extensive post discussing the topic
Basically, ores are a chance that is iteratated, many, many times, so drastica deviations from the norm are extremely unlikely, and you can expect a relatively constant rate of returns. Efficient mining can increase the chance of finding ores, and thereby increase the rate at which you gain them. Even diamond levels out within a fairly short timespan. The more effort you put into it, the more it levels out and becomes reliable.
Enchantments, in contrast, are a single chance.Not only that, the more you spend on it, the more random it gets. People can spend 40 xp and get something worst than the guy who spent 18. There is not time for it to average out. One guy can get a really sweet enchantment for his value, another guy could get something that is practically worthless. Compound that with the fact that through hours of normal play ,you are not going to get a huge pile of experience. When you enchant it and have it fail to give you an enchantment worth the cost, those hours of gameplay netted you much less than they should. You did the work, but you are not getting the spoils. Imagine if you went to work for a month, got your paycheck, and discovered it was a third of what you should earn, due to random chance. That would not be fair. It is way too random.
There is a very fundamental, key difference between mining for ores and enchanting.
I wrote an extensive post discussing the topic
Basically, ores are a chance that is iteratated, many, many times, so drastica deviations from the norm are extremely unlikely, and you can expect a relatively constant rate of returns. Efficient mining can increase the chance of finding ores, and thereby increase the rate at which you gain them. Even diamond levels out within a fairly short timespan. The more effort you put into it, the more it levels out and becomes reliable.
Enchantments, in contrast, are a single chance.Not only that, the more you spend on it, the more random it gets. People can spend 40 xp and get something worst than the guy who spent 18. There is not time for it to average out. One guy can get a really sweet enchantment for his value, another guy could get something that is practically worthless. Compound that with the fact that through hours of normal play ,you are not going to get a huge pile of experience. When you enchant it and have it fail to give you an enchantment worth the cost, those hours of gameplay netted you much less than they should. You did the work, but you are not getting the spoils. Imagine if you went to work for a month, got your paycheck, and discovered it was a third of what you should earn, due to random chance. That would not be fair. It is way too random.
I'm not going to discuss the specifics of that here, since as you so graciously pointed out, it has its own thread, but I will say that when comparing the spoils received from an action that is "iterated many, many times" to an action that is performed only a handful of times is sure to have unbalanced results. The "ore lottery" is iterated a seemingly infinite number of times, so the difference in rarity between each ore affects more the rate at which the ore is collected, rather than the odds that the player will encounter it. Should I also iterate the enchantment process an infinite number of times, I would end with a similar result: That I get less rare enchantments than common enchantments, but I am guaranteed to get both. However, I understand that the enchantment process cannot be iterated an infinite number of times, and as such, I see less rare enchantments than I see rare ores. Because of this, I believe that the mechanics for ore and enchantment are so fundamentally different that it's nigh impossible to compare the two without some element of subjectivity or interpretation.
You seem to have missed the entire point of my OP, and many of my posts afterward. I'm aware of the randomness enchantment. I am aware that the system could benefit from some tweaks, as could many features we currently have in Minecraft. As I said before, I believe that the problem is that players feel entitled to the high-level enchantments. You made some comments that demonstrate my point perfectly:
When you enchant it and have it fail to give you an enchantment worth the cost, those hours of gameplay netted you much less than they should.
The definition of "should" is the very topic under debate. I believe that players "should" only expect to receive the bottom tier of enchantments, and anything above that is like winning the lottery: That's what you came for, that's what you were hoping for, and it certainly is possible, but it's not likely, and to become upset upon losing said lottery is a bit silly since the odds were stacked against you from the very beginning. I mentioned before that the ability to manipulate the odds is a boon, but players have let it go to their heads, thinking that because they can manipulate the odds at all, they should be able to do so fully.
You did the work, but you are not getting the spoils.
If you collected experience, spent that experience on an enchantment, and got an enchantment in return, then you did indeed get the spoils.
Imagine if you went to work for a month, got your paycheck, and discovered it was a third of what you should earn, due to random chance.
Again, I see this as backwards logic. This whole statement's foundation is upon the idea that the player expects the very best, and feels slighted otherwise. For a moment, imagine this instead: You go to work, expecting a paycheque at your normal wage. Instead, you see that your boss has given you, out of all employees, a special bonus ($100) for employee of the month. You walk away with extra cash, happy as a lark. On your way out the door, you see Simon stomping his hat into the dirt. "Why so upset, Simon?" It turns out that Simon got runner-up for employee of the month, and only got a $50 bonus. I don't think Simon should be upset. He worked very hard and still got a bonus. Everyone else in the store worked very hard and got no bonus at all. But hey, there's always next month.
What I want to know is: at what point was there a guarantee that each and every player should get the best enchantment? At what point did the absolute, very best, rarest, most unobtainable enchantment become the norm upon which we base the value of what we receive? I think that if people try to look at the enchantment process for what it is, they might at least feel a bit less "ripped off" every time they don't get the best of the best. I'm not trying to be pretentious, but all of this unhappiness is stemming from a negative (or perhaps overconfident) outlook.
The definition of "should" is the very topic under debate. I believe that players "should" only expect to receive the bottom tier of enchantments, and anything above that is like winning the lottery: That's what you came for, that's what you were hoping for, and it certainly is possible, but it's not likely, and to become upset upon losing said lottery is a bit silly since the odds were stacked against you from the very beginning.
Let's say you entered a lottery with a single ticket, and the other guy bought twenty tickets - each at a much higher cost then yours.
"Should" you each have an equal chance of winning? Under MineCraft's enchanting system, it's as near as makes no difference.
Ironically, in most any other game experience would be used to customise a character. MineCraft, that's otherwise all about customisation, doesn't use it for that purpose.
Edit:
It's like the story of the old monk selling tea on a mountain - he had two types on offer, a $2 cup and a $200 cup. When asked the difference, he'd say, "$198".
Once one knows the "secret", there's no point to the $200 cup. Anyone who buys it before finding this out is obviously going to feel gypped (even if they could've asked at any time); it's not so simple to ask MineCraft however (there are no in-game hints other then those learned by spending way too much exp), and why would people expect the enchanting table to con them so badly?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You're just jealous 'cause the voices only talk to me
Personally I don't like the sheer randomness of this either. I don't mind some randomness, but this just seems like too much both in cost and effect. The problem with this sort of thing is that it ends in an annoying grind to try to get the enchantment you want. Not fun.
Doesn't seem like the Devs are going to change how this works, but we all know that there will be plenty of mods out that make it more reasonable.
I've been feeling more and more like it's more worth my while to get a ton of enchantments for low levels than to save up too. I don't know whether that's just something I believe for no reason, or whether the math actually works out such that it's more efficient that way.
Essentially, It doesn't pay off to sit in front of a mob spawner grinding out levels for an enchant when you could just get the job done.
Like it or not, the suggestion to treat it as a side perk is better. It's also the more efficient way to get things done.
Really... who ever said you HAD to get the right enchants before getting the job done. You don't. So don't do it. Just grab it as it comes.
Perhaps when boss fights are implemented you will have a method to get experience boosts and you can farm out enchants then.
Ah, that's exactly what I meant. Refreshing to see this perspective on the forums! I honestly haven't seen it until now. Enchantment is something to enjoy as a bonus, not depend on or strive for. I might strive for a really good enchantment out of novelty, but then it fits into the Too Awesome to Use category, or worse, the Awesome, But Impractical land of no return.
The randomness is silly. Imagine moving in random directions when you press to go forward, or randomly swinging your sword or pickaxe when you meant to fire an arrow. It's dumb.
To me, I personally see it as a Riven kind of deal: you wake up in a place you don't know with no real idea of what is going on. The world itself you find yourself in is not so alien but the things you find are not always immediately recognizable or easy to figure out. You must must make your own sense of things, especially the enchanting table that uses a foreign language. I'm not 100% up to date on potions but it would make sense for them to be partially random as well. You could even go so far as to bring up Redstone. All our characters can make of it is that while mining (or even just touching) it, it lights up. Could be some form of power source should be rather easy to deduce. Still, there is not much more we can do with it than use dust in an archaic hand spread line to be used as conduits and power sources.
It all leads to a story of our own instead that of another. The land features we explore, the tools we create and upgrade, our creations carved and created of the land and our labor, all the way up to a strange room in a strange place that has strange writing on it. There is a book that we fiddle with and a new tool of sorts is born to which our story can branch and grow more with.
Even as a SMP server host, I have only kept up with the 1.9 changes so much as to their general intentions and usage so as to keep the future our worlds in consideration. My own personal story I want to develop naturally and so I plan to find these things out first hand and on the spot, because that is when my spirit races and my mind comes alive with nifty new things to try with something newly discovered.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions as everyone has their own likes and dislikes. My only complaint is how much people seem to try to dictate massive changes to a game being created by another person, another person that had an idea of their own of what the major points of the game would be.
TL;DR
There is none. If you can't bother to be up on everything pertaining to something you feel so strongly about then you diminish your own passion and reason to be involved.
When it comes to random enchanments, its not simply a redeem your points here but players must; find 5 diamonds, make a pick, find or make obsidian, mine 4 blocks of said obsidian, then create a book. Only now you can redeem these points you've accumulated, and to get any higher level enchantments you need to farm out many more reeds and wood to make the bookcase set up, possibly even redstone and sticky pistons as well. After players put all that effort into setting up the system in which they can redeem the points, they feel like they should control what comes out, because of all the other things they do control, because of all the effort they put into creating that enchating table, and because of all the effort they went though to get those exp points. You can see how its rather difficult for most to see it simply as a occasional bonus system when players spend a lot of effort just to build the table, even more just to get mid level enchantments, when these are the players who spend so much time exercising their control on their world through; the building they construct, tree farms planted, mob spawner traps set up, domesticating animals, constructing elaborate redstone circuts, etc.
Mostly moved on. May check back a few times a year.
From that perspective, the only enchantments that are truly a new step are Silk Touch and Respiration, because they allow you to do things you actually couldn't before (especially Silk Touch).
Also, it means that I'm not really feeling the "enchantments as rewards" concept. Minecraft isn't about doing the quest or scoring high, it's about setting a goal and then figuring out what you need to do to accomplish it. You don't just randomly hit stone until you get iron as a reward, you go out and look for it, whether than means spelunking, mining, or even surface exploration. And when you do get iron, it isn't a random tool, it's the tool you choose to make out of it.
Bottom line, taking and accepting what you get is fine up to a certain point. But when you get actual features as sought-after as silk touch that you work the whole game for, you should have a way to know what you're getting if you look hard enough.
Here is a link where someone actually deciphered the enchanting code for us.
http://pernsteiner.org/minecraft/enchant/
Oh maybe you were referring to the Standard Galactic Alphabet. The enchantment phrasing in the book even when translated has no relation whatsoever to the enchantment you get.
The above link basically explains all the results you have been getting and how they relate to the code. For example even if you are at the right range of levels for getting silk touch the odds of getting silk touch compared to other tool enchantments is 1 in 18. The odds for getting an efficiency enchantment are 10 in 18. Higher levels will increase the odds of getting double/triple/quad enchantments which will in turn increase the odds of getting the elusive ones.
I've looked at what the link above had to say about silk touch and even at level 50 with gold tools (the best material for receiving enchantments) the odds of getting it on your tool in 1 attempt are less than 1 in 5.
Basically, all it comes down to is if the RNGs are decide to give you a break...
They took 40 blocks. That’s as many as four tens. And that’s horrible.
the problem with this is that the game would have to keep track of a lot more. for every monster you kill, every single time, the game has to check whether it came from a spawner, and give exp accordingly
No it wouldn't.
It would just be one boolean (e.g. bool from_spawner = true;) in the mob class that's checked upon death.
Then again Notch has done a lot of other things in a needlessly complicated way, so eh.
I agree with this line, but I disagree as to where the problem lies. I believe that the problem is in the players, who seek-after the high level enchantments. That's the point I've been trying to illustrate: Considering the way the system works, it's not meant to be sought-after. It's meant to be like winning the lottery. Sure, you can increase your odds, but there's no guarantee. If I got upset every time I lost the lottery and called the lotto system flawed, I'd look a bit like a lunatic. I'd say the fact that a player can so directly affect the odds is a boon per se. Most game mechanics that involve RNGs can't be manipulated, such as the contents of a dungeon chest.
The randomness was implemented so that players would lose some control when it came to enchantment; a fact that I don't think a lot of players have accepted, or are used to yet.
I disagree with your statement that finding iron is not a random experience. Like enchantment, the player can increase their odds of finding iron by mining at the right altitude and using techniques like branch mining or searching through pre-existing caves, but the exact locations of the ore are determined randomly. The randomness has generous parameters, but it's still random. If we're creating a parallel to enchantment, then finding iron would be the equivalent to acquiring an enchantment, and in both cases, the player is free to use their newly-found utensil as they choose.
However, I'm not against some tweaks to the rarity or frequency of certain effects, like maqhem started to get into. I just don't think that there should ever be a sure thing. Sure, it might be convenient, but it wouldn't be an improvement upon the existing mechanic; rather, it would be scrapping it and replacing it with a different one. As I see things, this system is very unique to Minecraft and a step in an exciting direction. It means that for all players, getting those high-level enchantments is a moment to celebrate; its "novelty" for lack of a better word would never wear off, like finding diamonds or dungeons has for a lot of veteran players.
There is a very fundamental, key difference between mining for ores and enchanting.
I wrote an extensive post discussing the topic
Basically, ores are a chance that is iteratated, many, many times, so drastica deviations from the norm are extremely unlikely, and you can expect a relatively constant rate of returns. Efficient mining can increase the chance of finding ores, and thereby increase the rate at which you gain them. Even diamond levels out within a fairly short timespan. The more effort you put into it, the more it levels out and becomes reliable.
Enchantments, in contrast, are a single chance.Not only that, the more you spend on it, the more random it gets. People can spend 40 xp and get something worst than the guy who spent 18. There is not time for it to average out. One guy can get a really sweet enchantment for his value, another guy could get something that is practically worthless. Compound that with the fact that through hours of normal play ,you are not going to get a huge pile of experience. When you enchant it and have it fail to give you an enchantment worth the cost, those hours of gameplay netted you much less than they should. You did the work, but you are not getting the spoils. Imagine if you went to work for a month, got your paycheck, and discovered it was a third of what you should earn, due to random chance. That would not be fair. It is way too random.
I'm not going to discuss the specifics of that here, since as you so graciously pointed out, it has its own thread, but I will say that when comparing the spoils received from an action that is "iterated many, many times" to an action that is performed only a handful of times is sure to have unbalanced results. The "ore lottery" is iterated a seemingly infinite number of times, so the difference in rarity between each ore affects more the rate at which the ore is collected, rather than the odds that the player will encounter it. Should I also iterate the enchantment process an infinite number of times, I would end with a similar result: That I get less rare enchantments than common enchantments, but I am guaranteed to get both. However, I understand that the enchantment process cannot be iterated an infinite number of times, and as such, I see less rare enchantments than I see rare ores. Because of this, I believe that the mechanics for ore and enchantment are so fundamentally different that it's nigh impossible to compare the two without some element of subjectivity or interpretation.
You seem to have missed the entire point of my OP, and many of my posts afterward. I'm aware of the randomness enchantment. I am aware that the system could benefit from some tweaks, as could many features we currently have in Minecraft. As I said before, I believe that the problem is that players feel entitled to the high-level enchantments. You made some comments that demonstrate my point perfectly:
The definition of "should" is the very topic under debate. I believe that players "should" only expect to receive the bottom tier of enchantments, and anything above that is like winning the lottery: That's what you came for, that's what you were hoping for, and it certainly is possible, but it's not likely, and to become upset upon losing said lottery is a bit silly since the odds were stacked against you from the very beginning. I mentioned before that the ability to manipulate the odds is a boon, but players have let it go to their heads, thinking that because they can manipulate the odds at all, they should be able to do so fully.
If you collected experience, spent that experience on an enchantment, and got an enchantment in return, then you did indeed get the spoils.
Again, I see this as backwards logic. This whole statement's foundation is upon the idea that the player expects the very best, and feels slighted otherwise. For a moment, imagine this instead: You go to work, expecting a paycheque at your normal wage. Instead, you see that your boss has given you, out of all employees, a special bonus ($100) for employee of the month. You walk away with extra cash, happy as a lark. On your way out the door, you see Simon stomping his hat into the dirt. "Why so upset, Simon?" It turns out that Simon got runner-up for employee of the month, and only got a $50 bonus. I don't think Simon should be upset. He worked very hard and still got a bonus. Everyone else in the store worked very hard and got no bonus at all. But hey, there's always next month.
What I want to know is: at what point was there a guarantee that each and every player should get the best enchantment? At what point did the absolute, very best, rarest, most unobtainable enchantment become the norm upon which we base the value of what we receive? I think that if people try to look at the enchantment process for what it is, they might at least feel a bit less "ripped off" every time they don't get the best of the best. I'm not trying to be pretentious, but all of this unhappiness is stemming from a negative (or perhaps overconfident) outlook.
I actually only use TV Tropes for those exact links xD I have very little interest in most of the "Entertainment" industry, other than video games.
You do not. Block drops are uneffected by Fortune, hence Silk Touch cancels out Fortune entirely.
Jeb's quoted somewhere as stating this is a bug; apparently it won't be possible to get both properties on the same item come the next release.
Let's say you entered a lottery with a single ticket, and the other guy bought twenty tickets - each at a much higher cost then yours.
"Should" you each have an equal chance of winning? Under MineCraft's enchanting system, it's as near as makes no difference.
Ironically, in most any other game experience would be used to customise a character. MineCraft, that's otherwise all about customisation, doesn't use it for that purpose.
Edit:
It's like the story of the old monk selling tea on a mountain - he had two types on offer, a $2 cup and a $200 cup. When asked the difference, he'd say, "$198".
Once one knows the "secret", there's no point to the $200 cup. Anyone who buys it before finding this out is obviously going to feel gypped (even if they could've asked at any time); it's not so simple to ask MineCraft however (there are no in-game hints other then those learned by spending way too much exp), and why would people expect the enchanting table to con them so badly?
Doesn't seem like the Devs are going to change how this works, but we all know that there will be plenty of mods out that make it more reasonable.