Hey. This thread is here to discuss the following two questions:
How will the game begin?
When you start out, will you pick some equipment or a class or a set of skills?
When the game begins, will it allow more players afterwards, or should it allow players to trickle in?
How will the game end?
And why? This will be the driving force behind players' actions.
Should there be multiple endgoals, decided randomly or by the server?
Maybe there are a number of goals always available for the players to choose from? (a la Age of Empires, original)
Or just a number? A 'high score' to strive for?
Now, remember!
Remember what you're here to discuss! Try your best to stick to the topic at hand.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
i believe that there should be no end game if not wanted, or maybe free play after that..... this way you have the feeling of something fun without it ending
I think there should be different kinds of servers set up. Perhaps a few in "creative" mode, much like we have now. Then we have some in "freeform" Survival mode, with no beginning and no end- people just pop in as they please and survive (or not). Then... I don't know, maybe Capture the Flag? The server would reset every hour or two and reshuffle the two teams. There's a flag on either side of the map. The teams build defenses around it and raid the enemy in an attempt to capture the flag, and at the end of the server's reset time whoever has the most captures wins.
I can also see a 'crafter's challenge'- similarly, two (or more) teams. Whichever team saves up enough resources and builds up enough to create a super-expensive item (Orb of Victory, or something) first, wins the game. Of course, raids on enemy soil would be encouraged!
Then we also have the classic "Deathmatch". People spawn as a certain class (already having weapons, armor and food as appropriate to their class) and just try to kill everyone else. Last one standing or one with the most kills wins!
Oh! And why not "Exploration" Survival? Everyone spawns as a class (or not? maybe they appear naked, like we do now) in a map with monsters, etc. on it. The first person to find and gather the Gold Brick (or some other impressive non-naturally-forming brick) wins the map. It could be underwater, buried in a cavern, on top of a tree, hidden by lava (ouch!)...
This seems more like a cooperative game rather than a competitive game, so I don't think someone should be able to "win"...
Maybe instead, it uses rounds, where at night, you have to survive against the many monsters that roam around. And during the day, monsters won't show up as frequently which gives you some time to repair/build your fort... (Also, maybe pigs are less frequent during the night, so you need to collect pig meat during the day too)
I think this should be challenging enough that you'll need to group with other players if you want to survive (At least the multiplayer version).
Chrstfer: There probably will be some kind of 'Endless Survival' mode, but it will certainly end once you die...
Leeksoup: Those sound pretty interesting, although a couple seem kind of flawed. (Mostly 'Exploration'. Seems based on nothing more than dumb luck.)
KuroBit: What you're describing sounds a lot more like the 'Zombie Siege' (or whatever it was called) mode, not Survival. Still, it does sound good.
I had a very basic image in mind of something I'll call Roguelike Survival.
You get a bunch of people together, and maybe you start out with classes, equipment, or not.
Then you start the game together, maybe in one place or maybe scattered about.
There is some goal you must accomplish -- either something incredibly difficult (as in most roguelikes, but this would not be quite as appropriate) or something that pits you directly against the other players. Either that or 'survive as long as possible'.
Once you die, you are dead! No coming back.
---
Separating myself from that, I had in mind at one point a Be One of the Players in the Last Remaining 30%.
Or something to that effect.
This would immediately drive players to split themselves into teams, but I was worried it would degenerate into an all-out deathmatch right from the beginning. So maybe players could begin all split up or something.
In any case, I know that I'd like to see FFA Survival which does somehow encourage groups of players combating other groups of players. (Of course, it shouldn't all be about combat, either)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
In the current Creative mode, most people seem to like building massive cities, huge megaprojects, or random, disconnected bits of artwork. You know, 'stuff'.
This *must* be included in Survival mode - working together to build 'stuff'. Except now, you have to mine the rocks and fight the monsters while building the 'stuff'. A persistent world is critical here - people don't like forced "endgame" events that shut down a server. And when a server *is* designed to end (a more competitive server, for instance), it should end based on players completing goals.
Of course, the opening of the game is much more interesting. Right off the bat, I want to decry the concept of pre-created 'classes'. I don't want John Doe over there getting an advantage because he picked the "Warrior" class, which happens to be better than my "Bard" class. Give everybody an even start - for lack of a better starting build, let us all begin naked, like the test. You want to be a Warrior? Great - find some ore, and craft yourself a sword. Think you'd be better as a Stonemason? No need for the game to arbitrarily give you an advantage - mine some stone, and find someone who needs a castle. Player roles will emerge naturally, especially if there's a limit on the number of items you can carry. A Warrior, with a full set of armor, a weapon, and a bunch of 'shrooms, won't have much room for stone blocks and a mason's tools.
I like the idea of having skill points that can be spent when you first join a server. Have several categories (Defense, mining, attack, speed, etc.) and be able to put those points into your preffered category. You could focus on fighting and drain all your points into attack and defense, or be a miner and drain all your points into mining and speed, or be something completely different.
Also, death should be very significant. If you are playing to points then you should lose at least half your points. Make the person wait 10 minutes before being able to rejoin. Get rid of all their supplies. Death is no laughing matter, you have to restart all over again.
Lastly, I think the idea of making enemy swarms bigger would be good as well. right now they spawn in groups of 5-6 and that is it. I want to have groups of 30 spawning all at once in the later game, make everyone join up to stop coming hordes. No matter how good you are, you cannot take on 30 skeletons at once. I think it would be a good way to weed out the weaker players in the beginning and force the survivors to all work together.
Oh ya, and fix the spawning issues. Make the monster come from the edge of the map rather than spawning in my deep underground, lava moted, 4 wall thick super bunker please.
I like the idea of having skill points that can be spent when you first join a server. Have several categories (Defense, mining, attack, speed, etc.) and be able to put those points into your preffered category. You could focus on fighting and drain all your points into attack and defense, or be a miner and drain all your points into mining and speed, or be something completely different.
Okay, besides that: I concur with both significant death and enemy swarms (they sound awesome and I actually haven't seen that idea anywhere although it is a very simple idea). I'm only worried about lag.
It would be incredibly awesome to have a huge swarm of some kind of digger mob swarming towards your 5-player fortress with thick fortified walls as you try desperately to hold them back...
---> Finally, although it is somewhat of a simplified approach, spawning from edges is still a pretty good idea. I think it would be best to make something slightly more sophisticated (spawn anywhere that has an uninterrupted straight line to the edge?)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
I like the idea of having skill points that can be spent when you first join a server. Have several categories (Defense, mining, attack, speed, etc.) and be able to put those points into your preffered category. You could focus on fighting and drain all your points into attack and defense, or be a miner and drain all your points into mining and speed, or be something completely different.
Okay, besides that: I concur with both significant death and enemy swarms (they sound awesome and I actually haven't seen that idea anywhere although it is a very simple idea). I'm only worried about lag.
It would be incredibly awesome to have a huge swarm of some kind of digger mob swarming towards your 5-player fortress with thick fortified walls as you try desperately to hold them back...
---> Finally, although it is somewhat of a simplified approach, spawning from edges is still a pretty good idea. I think it would be best to make something slightly more sophisticated (spawn anywhere that has an uninterrupted straight line to the edge?)
Mass spawns would be awesome, especially with breaks in the middle. Imagine a massive Skeleton siege. You fight it off... and suddenly, all is calm. You warily venture outside your castle, start to rebuild your walls... and suddenly, from out of nowhere, a horde of Zombies ambushes you. That would be one epic (impending) death. :biggrin.gif:
The problem with edge spawns is, they're kind of predictable. I bet it won't be long until people start sealing off the edges of the map. That said, at least a predictable and exploitable spawn is better than the purely random, turn-your-back-on-a-closet-and-end-up-backstabbed-by-ninja-Creepers system we've got now.
A more complex solution might be, "Don't spawn monsters anywhere a player has seen in the last 5(?) minutes." If you're patrolling your fortress regularly, monsters will never spawn inside, and they won't spawn anywhere visible from your battlements either. The number could be tweaked dynamically - if a 5-minute timer isn't letting any mobs spawn anywhere on the map, the game could automatically scale that number down to 3 minutes, opening up more possible spawn points.
On the other hand, it would take a lot more programming work, and I don't know how viable it would be. Edge-spawning is exploitable, but it's easy for new players to understand and doesn't take much work to implement.
How will the game begin?
When you start out, will you pick some equipment or a class or a set of skills?
When the game begins, will it allow more players afterwards, or should it allow players to trickle in?
How will the game end?
And why? This will be the driving force behind players' actions.
Should there be multiple endgoals, decided randomly or by the server?
Maybe there are a number of goals always available for the players to choose from? (a la Age of Empires, original)
Or just a number? A 'high score' to strive for?
Now, remember!
Remember what you're here to discuss! Try your best to stick to the topic at hand.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
I can also see a 'crafter's challenge'- similarly, two (or more) teams. Whichever team saves up enough resources and builds up enough to create a super-expensive item (Orb of Victory, or something) first, wins the game. Of course, raids on enemy soil would be encouraged!
Then we also have the classic "Deathmatch". People spawn as a certain class (already having weapons, armor and food as appropriate to their class) and just try to kill everyone else. Last one standing or one with the most kills wins!
Oh! And why not "Exploration" Survival? Everyone spawns as a class (or not? maybe they appear naked, like we do now) in a map with monsters, etc. on it. The first person to find and gather the Gold Brick (or some other impressive non-naturally-forming brick) wins the map. It could be underwater, buried in a cavern, on top of a tree, hidden by lava (ouch!)...
Maybe instead, it uses rounds, where at night, you have to survive against the many monsters that roam around. And during the day, monsters won't show up as frequently which gives you some time to repair/build your fort... (Also, maybe pigs are less frequent during the night, so you need to collect pig meat during the day too)
I think this should be challenging enough that you'll need to group with other players if you want to survive (At least the multiplayer version).
Leeksoup: Those sound pretty interesting, although a couple seem kind of flawed. (Mostly 'Exploration'. Seems based on nothing more than dumb luck.)
KuroBit: What you're describing sounds a lot more like the 'Zombie Siege' (or whatever it was called) mode, not Survival. Still, it does sound good.
I had a very basic image in mind of something I'll call Roguelike Survival.
You get a bunch of people together, and maybe you start out with classes, equipment, or not.
Then you start the game together, maybe in one place or maybe scattered about.
There is some goal you must accomplish -- either something incredibly difficult (as in most roguelikes, but this would not be quite as appropriate) or something that pits you directly against the other players. Either that or 'survive as long as possible'.
Once you die, you are dead! No coming back.
---
Separating myself from that, I had in mind at one point a Be One of the Players in the Last Remaining 30%.
Or something to that effect.
This would immediately drive players to split themselves into teams, but I was worried it would degenerate into an all-out deathmatch right from the beginning. So maybe players could begin all split up or something.
In any case, I know that I'd like to see FFA Survival which does somehow encourage groups of players combating other groups of players. (Of course, it shouldn't all be about combat, either)
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
This *must* be included in Survival mode - working together to build 'stuff'. Except now, you have to mine the rocks and fight the monsters while building the 'stuff'. A persistent world is critical here - people don't like forced "endgame" events that shut down a server. And when a server *is* designed to end (a more competitive server, for instance), it should end based on players completing goals.
Of course, the opening of the game is much more interesting. Right off the bat, I want to decry the concept of pre-created 'classes'. I don't want John Doe over there getting an advantage because he picked the "Warrior" class, which happens to be better than my "Bard" class. Give everybody an even start - for lack of a better starting build, let us all begin naked, like the test. You want to be a Warrior? Great - find some ore, and craft yourself a sword. Think you'd be better as a Stonemason? No need for the game to arbitrarily give you an advantage - mine some stone, and find someone who needs a castle. Player roles will emerge naturally, especially if there's a limit on the number of items you can carry. A Warrior, with a full set of armor, a weapon, and a bunch of 'shrooms, won't have much room for stone blocks and a mason's tools.
or hybrid zombies.
What interesting things arise from being a robot? D:
Vampire isn't allowed in the sunlight; that would be awesome.
(This is my only reason, really)
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
the game ends when everyone is zombie-fied
I would much rather be turned into a creeper.
Also, death should be very significant. If you are playing to points then you should lose at least half your points. Make the person wait 10 minutes before being able to rejoin. Get rid of all their supplies. Death is no laughing matter, you have to restart all over again.
Lastly, I think the idea of making enemy swarms bigger would be good as well. right now they spawn in groups of 5-6 and that is it. I want to have groups of 30 spawning all at once in the later game, make everyone join up to stop coming hordes. No matter how good you are, you cannot take on 30 skeletons at once. I think it would be a good way to weed out the weaker players in the beginning and force the survivors to all work together.
Oh ya, and fix the spawning issues. Make the monster come from the edge of the map rather than spawning in my deep underground, lava moted, 4 wall thick super bunker please.
Read This!
Okay, besides that: I concur with both significant death and enemy swarms (they sound awesome and I actually haven't seen that idea anywhere although it is a very simple idea). I'm only worried about lag.
It would be incredibly awesome to have a huge swarm of some kind of digger mob swarming towards your 5-player fortress with thick fortified walls as you try desperately to hold them back...
---> Finally, although it is somewhat of a simplified approach, spawning from edges is still a pretty good idea. I think it would be best to make something slightly more sophisticated (spawn anywhere that has an uninterrupted straight line to the edge?)
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
Mass spawns would be awesome, especially with breaks in the middle. Imagine a massive Skeleton siege. You fight it off... and suddenly, all is calm. You warily venture outside your castle, start to rebuild your walls... and suddenly, from out of nowhere, a horde of Zombies ambushes you. That would be one epic (impending) death. :biggrin.gif:
The problem with edge spawns is, they're kind of predictable. I bet it won't be long until people start sealing off the edges of the map. That said, at least a predictable and exploitable spawn is better than the purely random, turn-your-back-on-a-closet-and-end-up-backstabbed-by-ninja-Creepers system we've got now.
A more complex solution might be, "Don't spawn monsters anywhere a player has seen in the last 5(?) minutes." If you're patrolling your fortress regularly, monsters will never spawn inside, and they won't spawn anywhere visible from your battlements either. The number could be tweaked dynamically - if a 5-minute timer isn't letting any mobs spawn anywhere on the map, the game could automatically scale that number down to 3 minutes, opening up more possible spawn points.
On the other hand, it would take a lot more programming work, and I don't know how viable it would be. Edge-spawning is exploitable, but it's easy for new players to understand and doesn't take much work to implement.