I hope you enjoyed my thread title. Let's get down to business.
By the way, I know there are already TONS of craft system suggestions. Some of them kind of irked me. Just a little, though! So no offence to you other people, but here's my take on things.
When you are dealing with a craft system, there are a few options, on a nice little slider bar kind of system I've got going on here. Don't worry; it'll make more sense as we go.
Part 1: Collection - You can't craft without materials. You need to collect materials to HAVE materials.
Not Lots [-|------] Lots
Simple [-----|--] Variety
If you want to make a sword, you shouldn't be expected to go around the map, find an iron vein, dig out the WHOLE IRON VEIN and realize you can make like one and a half swords from all that iron you just mined out.
It would be more acceptable, though, to go around and find some iron and realize you need some coal, or wood, and then maybe another material too to build what you want to.
The goal here is to reward EXPLORATION and TRADING and DISCOVERY, not slaving away in an iron mine and wondering how many more blocks you have to mine out to make a sword so you can dig some more and make some armour and realize you're not even doing any fighting down here.
Part 2: Tiers - There does need to be some equipment that is better than some other equipment, right?
Slow [----|---] Fast
Shallow [---|----] Deep
Linear[-----|--] Branching
Moderately fast, I think, is what would be good to aim for here; I can't imagine games of Survival lasting forever, so the 'Tech Advancement' should go at the pace of a brisk walk. You should not really get to the end of the tech chain unless 1. It is very short, or 2. The game goes on for a while, or 3. You personally put a lot of focus on getting the best of everything.
So on that note, it should be a bit deep. I read someplace someone said Notch said it'd be just 2 tiers of Weapons and Armour (or... something) and that's probably good. 2 or 3 different levels of stuff, maybe (the first tier would be really cheaply made stuff, though, if 3 levels). Too many tiers, not so good. 4 would be pushing it.
Although it shouldn't be terribly deep, there should DEFINITELY be some options. It should not be armour A>B>C.
Maybe Light Armour, Low Defence splits into Heavy+High ---> Heavy+VeryHigh, and then just Light+Med-High or something.
Part 3: Crafting - Yay! We get to make stuff, finally!
Forever [------|-] Not Forever
Many Tools [----|---] No Tools Needed
Chance [--|-----] Always Works
Crafting will probably consist of 'stand in front of thing, combine items'. No need to mix waiting in there. You have a forge, tools, and the materials? Great! Ding! Here you go! Addendum: Things should take some time. Not a long time, though. There should be more waiting for something to complete by itself than waiting there with a bar in front of your face. Suggestion: Each 'Crafting Structure' or whatever would have a COOLDOWN timer, but you do NOT need to stand there waiting (for long).
In line with not-tons-of-tiers, there should not be a ton of tools either. There should be a moderate amount of them to go with the brisk walk pace of going up tiers and branching tiers = good.
Alright, and at last, there should be an element of chance involved. It makes more sense than huge amount of materials to make one item, and it still means you have to spend a bit of time collecting and a bit of time crafting. It also gives a good reason for better tools. It ALSO means you have a reason to make less extravagant equipment -- because it's really tough to make awesome equipment.
Part 4: Examples - I guess some people like these, right?
Clay Block
1
+Light, Time = Brick Block
+Hands = 40% chance of Wet Clay Pot
( Wet Clay Pot + Light, Time = Clay Pot )
Stone Block
1
+Hands = 'Shoddy Stone Work Table; Quality 1' ('Sharpening/Whacking Stone')
+W. Table = 20% chance of 'Stone Cutting Edge; Quality 1'
+W. Table = 20% chance of 'Stone Point; Quality 1'
+Edge = 50% chance of 'Stone Work Table; Quality 2' (10% chance of Stone Edge breaking?)
---> Maybe, say, each point of Quality gives you a +10% success bonus or something.
Wood Block
1
+Edge = 'Wooden Work Table; Quality 3'
Iron Ore Block
1
+Smelter = 1 Iron Bar (for making swords, shields, maybe takes two for armour or something - there is a lot of iron in an iron ore block!) --- With a respectable failure chance, of course.
3
+Smelter = 1 Iron Block (for building)
... I won't go on further. No real point and it's not very exciting to pore through a huge list, is it?
Plus I'm more interested at the moment in discussing some other stuff. Go on, read it!
Part 5: Success Chance - My small personal breakthrough!
Chance! There needs to be an element of failure involved!
I don't know if this has been brought up before; it probably has, but I've never seen it suggested (on these forums).
It gives you a reason to
1. Make weaker equipment, and less of it -- without making everything heinously expensive.
2. Make better tools -- without FORCING you to use better tools.
3. If there are skills or stats or points or classes or specialities or whatever, a reason to have your better crafters craft all your stuff -- without, again, strictly ENFORCING that you NEED to have one or you're screwed.
Finally it adds a bit of a random element in there, and some chance. There's always a random element, right? Maybe you'll find iron ore, maybe you won't. Perhaps your cave will hit water and become flooded... or maybe lava. It's possible you'll fail to craft that sword this time; maybe you'll succeed next time or decide "I'm going to go find myself a darn metalcrafting specialist this time (I hope one exists)!".
One more thing. Nobody likes having a 10% chance to make something at the high end... There should be at least a 50% chance of making the best items once you get the best tools, I guess.
Part 6: Quality
As you move up, tools should have a quality without causing too much confusion over what material is what.
As opposed to weapons and equipment, tools should have a pretty linear sort of path.
'Quality' of a tool should affect the success rate, discussed above.
If tools break, it could also make them less likely to break.
Part 7: Falling Apart
Crafting systems aren't simple!
I feel like the togetherness of this post kind of fell apart near the end.
But that's okay. The things I kinda wanted to get across are all in there.
Part 8: Addendum - the focus of Minecraft - and don't you forget it
The focus of Minecraft is on Building and Exploring.
Remember, there is NO creativity in crafting as far as we know it -- I don't think it's going to be very complicated.
Crafting should be a small tree of small choices to make -- of resource management and time management.
Remember that the focus of Minecraft is the game itself, okay? It's better to spend time smacking things dead with a wooden sword and digging through walls with an iron pick and building beautiful clay houses... than it is to be furiously crafting your new steel sword, finding materials for a gleaming gold pick, or struggling to find some crystalite ore and some freeze-dried lemon trees and then some massive lava pool underground (at least 5x5x5) to make a house out of pure lava-soaked AWESOME.
I might be wrong. But for the majority of you, I don't think I'm wrong.
It's not that you can make a clay pot or a forge, it's what you end up doing with them that matters!
Quote from SteGriff »
Or we'll probably just drop some ores in lava and armour will pop out.
Quote from Nutnoze »
Even if we don't do what I suggest I really hope it will be a bit more in-depth than that, considering it's probably going to be what you spend most of your time doing (Crafting or mining so that you can craft later).
This message brought to you by something that was sparked inside me by this guy, Nutnoze.
Not to, um, insult him. Just to point out my firm disagreement with him.
I like what SteGriff said. It was amusing, and struck me as Minecraft-like. I imagine it would also be thoroughly satisfying.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I want to see forum posts saying "how do i kill dragon" with replies reading "lol"."
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).
By the way, I know there are already TONS of craft system suggestions. Some of them kind of irked me. Just a little, though! So no offence to you other people, but here's my take on things.
When you are dealing with a craft system, there are a few options, on a nice little slider bar kind of system I've got going on here. Don't worry; it'll make more sense as we go.
Part 1: Collection - You can't craft without materials. You need to collect materials to HAVE materials.
Not Lots [-|------] Lots
Simple [-----|--] Variety
If you want to make a sword, you shouldn't be expected to go around the map, find an iron vein, dig out the WHOLE IRON VEIN and realize you can make like one and a half swords from all that iron you just mined out.
It would be more acceptable, though, to go around and find some iron and realize you need some coal, or wood, and then maybe another material too to build what you want to.
The goal here is to reward EXPLORATION and TRADING and DISCOVERY, not slaving away in an iron mine and wondering how many more blocks you have to mine out to make a sword so you can dig some more and make some armour and realize you're not even doing any fighting down here.
Part 2: Tiers - There does need to be some equipment that is better than some other equipment, right?
Slow [----|---] Fast
Shallow [---|----] Deep
Linear[-----|--] Branching
Moderately fast, I think, is what would be good to aim for here; I can't imagine games of Survival lasting forever, so the 'Tech Advancement' should go at the pace of a brisk walk. You should not really get to the end of the tech chain unless 1. It is very short, or 2. The game goes on for a while, or 3. You personally put a lot of focus on getting the best of everything.
So on that note, it should be a bit deep. I read someplace someone said Notch said it'd be just 2 tiers of Weapons and Armour (or... something) and that's probably good. 2 or 3 different levels of stuff, maybe (the first tier would be really cheaply made stuff, though, if 3 levels). Too many tiers, not so good. 4 would be pushing it.
Although it shouldn't be terribly deep, there should DEFINITELY be some options. It should not be armour A>B>C.
Maybe Light Armour, Low Defence splits into Heavy+High ---> Heavy+VeryHigh, and then just Light+Med-High or something.
Part 3: Crafting - Yay! We get to make stuff, finally!
Forever [------|-] Not Forever
Many Tools [----|---] No Tools Needed
Chance [--|-----] Always Works
Crafting will probably consist of 'stand in front of thing, combine items'. No need to mix waiting in there. You have a forge, tools, and the materials? Great! Ding! Here you go! Addendum: Things should take some time. Not a long time, though. There should be more waiting for something to complete by itself than waiting there with a bar in front of your face.
Suggestion: Each 'Crafting Structure' or whatever would have a COOLDOWN timer, but you do NOT need to stand there waiting (for long).
In line with not-tons-of-tiers, there should not be a ton of tools either. There should be a moderate amount of them to go with the brisk walk pace of going up tiers and branching tiers = good.
Alright, and at last, there should be an element of chance involved. It makes more sense than huge amount of materials to make one item, and it still means you have to spend a bit of time collecting and a bit of time crafting. It also gives a good reason for better tools. It ALSO means you have a reason to make less extravagant equipment -- because it's really tough to make awesome equipment.
Part 4: Examples - I guess some people like these, right?
Dirt Block
1
+Water = Mud Block (like thick water; probably impossible)
2
+Hands = Dirt Brick
+Hands = Clay Block
Clay Block
1
+Light, Time = Brick Block
+Hands = 40% chance of Wet Clay Pot
( Wet Clay Pot + Light, Time = Clay Pot )
Stone Block
1
+Hands = 'Shoddy Stone Work Table; Quality 1' ('Sharpening/Whacking Stone')
+W. Table = 20% chance of 'Stone Cutting Edge; Quality 1'
+W. Table = 20% chance of 'Stone Point; Quality 1'
+Edge = 50% chance of 'Stone Work Table; Quality 2' (10% chance of Stone Edge breaking?)
---> Maybe, say, each point of Quality gives you a +10% success bonus or something.
Wood Block
1
+Edge = 'Wooden Work Table; Quality 3'
Iron Ore Block
1
+Smelter = 1 Iron Bar (for making swords, shields, maybe takes two for armour or something - there is a lot of iron in an iron ore block!) --- With a respectable failure chance, of course.
3
+Smelter = 1 Iron Block (for building)
... I won't go on further. No real point and it's not very exciting to pore through a huge list, is it?
Plus I'm more interested at the moment in discussing some other stuff. Go on, read it!
Part 5: Success Chance - My small personal breakthrough!
Chance! There needs to be an element of failure involved!
I don't know if this has been brought up before; it probably has, but I've never seen it suggested (on these forums).
It gives you a reason to
1. Make weaker equipment, and less of it -- without making everything heinously expensive.
2. Make better tools -- without FORCING you to use better tools.
3. If there are skills or stats or points or classes or specialities or whatever, a reason to have your better crafters craft all your stuff -- without, again, strictly ENFORCING that you NEED to have one or you're screwed.
Finally it adds a bit of a random element in there, and some chance. There's always a random element, right? Maybe you'll find iron ore, maybe you won't. Perhaps your cave will hit water and become flooded... or maybe lava. It's possible you'll fail to craft that sword this time; maybe you'll succeed next time or decide "I'm going to go find myself a darn metalcrafting specialist this time (I hope one exists)!".
One more thing. Nobody likes having a 10% chance to make something at the high end... There should be at least a 50% chance of making the best items once you get the best tools, I guess.
Part 6: Quality
As you move up, tools should have a quality without causing too much confusion over what material is what.
As opposed to weapons and equipment, tools should have a pretty linear sort of path.
'Quality' of a tool should affect the success rate, discussed above.
If tools break, it could also make them less likely to break.
Part 7: Falling Apart
Crafting systems aren't simple!
I feel like the togetherness of this post kind of fell apart near the end.
But that's okay. The things I kinda wanted to get across are all in there.
Part 8: Addendum - the focus of Minecraft - and don't you forget it
The focus of Minecraft is on Building and Exploring.
Remember, there is NO creativity in crafting as far as we know it -- I don't think it's going to be very complicated.
Crafting should be a small tree of small choices to make -- of resource management and time management.
Remember that the focus of Minecraft is the game itself, okay? It's better to spend time smacking things dead with a wooden sword and digging through walls with an iron pick and building beautiful clay houses... than it is to be furiously crafting your new steel sword, finding materials for a gleaming gold pick, or struggling to find some crystalite ore and some freeze-dried lemon trees and then some massive lava pool underground (at least 5x5x5) to make a house out of pure lava-soaked AWESOME.
I might be wrong. But for the majority of you, I don't think I'm wrong.
It's not that you can make a clay pot or a forge, it's what you end up doing with them that matters!
This message brought to you by something that was sparked inside me by this guy, Nutnoze.
Not to, um, insult him. Just to point out my firm disagreement with him.
I like what SteGriff said. It was amusing, and struck me as Minecraft-like. I imagine it would also be thoroughly satisfying.
---> vede claimed Notch said this (and it is awesome).