right. there is no defense that cannot be beaten. defense slows the inevitable break in. it takes time to build an airpocket and cut through layers of obsidian. your odds of anticipating or repelling the attack are better in that case than theyd be if you had a treasure chest sitting out in the open. that's what it's all about.
it doesnt slow an attacker, i mean seriously, to build an airpocket will require less then 20 blocks of dirt and 2 buckets, build a dirt shelter which takes all of 5 seconds, then use the two buckets to scoop up the 2 squares of water your in, then dig down.
the problem isnt that we dont agree defense should slow down not stop attackers, its that it doesnt slow down the attackers because minecraft was NOT ment to handle a situation like this. it was made to destroy quick because there are not destructive mobs (creepers dont just wander around williy nilly blowin crap up), and because if all items took so long to mine the game would fast become menial at best.
that said i want people to remember that not every survival player is going to level your base either, griefers yes, but if i were to break into your base and steal your loot, youd have a hole in the wall,floor or roof, and a missing chest. actually id probly give you a new chest full of dirt or something silly, maybe reed or something idk i like to be silly. bottom line id go after the goods and leave. i personally wouldnt search for 20 minutes in your base for a chest because theres no garentee something useful is in it, and in 20 minutes i can dig down to lava pools and find some decent ore, i however am not a griefer and i prefer to mine myself anyways.
another idea i have that might atleast halt greifers to some degree is in addition to having a public spawn allow the player to place a spawn flag of their own at their base. if your terribly worried about griefers take an hour walk in some direction or so, yeah this idea has its flaws but most people are concered about griefers not other players, and most griefers are not going to take the effort to walk a random direction for over an hour in hopes they bump into something. they want to gain the most with as little effort as possible.
In order for someone to grief they need to evolve themselves before they can take down ur castle. but since u alrdy have a castle ur clearly better then them so u should be able to win in a fight but as for when your offline maybe make it so ur things cant be touched while ur offline, no matter what notch will fix it in the end
This is silly guys. There will be land-claimed flags. This is confirmed. You will not be able to build around someone else's building area. Let's hope that land-claim flags will double as spawn points...at least a limited amount of spawns per flag to prevent ridiculous turtling. Let's analyze some classical defense styles and how they will not work in SMP. I am assuming that a land-claim flag means nobody can build BUT anyone can destroy within the radius.
1. Castles: Will not work. Walls are obsolete. Pillar over or tunnel under. Not hard to bypass. Pillaring over may be impossible with a land-claim flag. Digging under would be impossible if your land claim flag covered the area to the ground AND you destroyed the bottom 3 layers of the map so they couldn't get up. This is a pain and will take lots of time but hey...go for it!
2. Floating Castles: Same idea. I can see this working if it was impossible to get to unless the owner pillared up. You'd have to put lava flowing solid from the top of your house about 10 squares from the main wall in order to defeat pillaring and then building bridges over (except for the extremely persistent.
3. Constant Guard: Yeah, right. Nerd.
4. NPC Guards: This would be awesome, couldn't be too difficult to code (mob-spawners in-game) and would make a constant defense possible. Think of a warhammer-online style keep lord that you could place in your tower with a small guard. Skeletons on the walls. Zombies in the courtyard. That would work and be FUN to attack.
----
Now I think the most exciting way to make the game balanced, allow time for intricate structures, and have PVP and PVE combat would to implement a system like this:
Zones determinted by color
Green zones: Free build for teams. This is where your major structures are built. Giant castles, intricate towns, you name it. Enemy team cannot place, delete, nor collect blocks in your green zone except under special circumstances I will get into in a minute.
Yellow zone: Buffer zone. Can have secondary defenses, or the main defenses, but is designed as a "buffer zone" between red and green. Offensive players cannot affect this zone until red zone is taken.
Red Zone: Buffer zone. Same concept as Yellow zone except offensive players must capture this zone via a flag before they can affect the yellow zone.
Black Zone: Constant PVP Zone. Free-reign PVP. Likely that little building will occur on a wide scale.
Where is this going? Well, I'll tell you.
In each zone there will be a flag. At the beginning of a game players spawn together in the black area and can immediately kill each other. Teams can be designated by admins or by the first people (balanced of course) to get to one or the other green zone.
Black Zone is no-man's-land. Anyone can kill anyone. Given the infinite nature of Minecraft, areas not designated as Green, Yellow, or Red can be considered Black zones. Therefore, within a certain area you've got your castles (limited area) and outside of those borders you have black zones...perhaps yellow and red would radiate in a circle from each green zone, but there would be a veritable valley of these zones that span the area between each green zone.
In order to attack the opposing team's green zone, you would have to go through a series of attacks. First, you would have to attack from the black zone into the red zone and capture the red flag for the opposing team. Doing so would make it impossible for the defending team to attack the offensive team's red zone until they reclaim their own red flag.
Once the red flag has been captured, the offensive team can build in the newly captured red zone, allowing them to make an offensive forward base. Then they must capture the yellow zone. Until the offensive team captures the flag in a red zone, they can only destroy and not build blocks there. They cannot do anything but destroy in yellow zones until they capture both the red flag and the yellow flag.
Once the red flag is captured and the red zone thus controlled, the offensive team can move to capture the yellow flag. Once they've done this, they can build in the yellow zone and prepare for an attack on the green zone.
Once the yellow zone is taken, the green zone becomes a viable target. Remember that up until this point the green zone can only be interacted with by players on the specific zone's team.
The offensive team will always spawn 1 level lower than the level they've captured. This means that if the offensive team captures the yellow zone, they can only spawn back at the red zone. If they control the red zone, they must spawn no closer than their team's red zone on the other side of the black zone. Defending teams can spawn in any zone they control, allowing them the ability to spawn closer to the flag that needs to be captured to reclaim their land. This gives defenders the advantage during a siege.
When the defending team's green zone is taken, they have lost the round. These rounds could take as little as an hour to as long as weeks or months to play. During the entire game mode, each time will need to be constantly gathering resources to continue the war effort and build offensive and defensive materials, meaning that more time will be taken besides just fighting.
Once the green zone is taken the offensive or capturing team will control both bases (the entire map) for a certain amount of time depending on an admin's preference (15 minutes or maybe even an hour...or days, even, depending on how long the battles took depending on the Admin). After this time, the offensive team is teleported back to their original fortress, and a temporary peace is enforced by server rules. You may not invade or attack other players (In green, yellow, or red zones, at least) until this peace time is up. Then the battle begins again. This peace time, as it were, allows the defenders a brief reprieve and time to rebuild their defenses that have likely been decimated by the attacking team.
Now I love this idea. Obviously, it would take TONS of modding to make this work.
Cool stuff:
Resources in your green zone will eventually die out. You will need to mine in the yellow and then red zones to find what you need. Once those are depleted, you will have to move out to the black zone, leaving your base behind and scouring for resources with a constant threat of getting raided. Challenging and fun!
Nobody says you have to fight to take the other team's green zone (castle) 100% of the time. Plenty of fun could be had trying to kill each other off in the infinite black zones that surround each castle.
Players would need to be notified by a server-wide message whenever an enemy player enters and/or attacks a block in each one of the specific non-black zones. This would allow players a warning before the enemy team had captured their castle, giving them time to move back and defend their territory.
The size of each zone could be from 100x100 blocks for small games up to 10000x10000 blocks for big games. The possibilities are endless (I guess...maybe chunk rendering could affect this)
It might work better for zones to be set up this way:
That's kinda rough, but get the idea? everything surrounding that would be unflagged and, therefore, black.
I think this would be a perfect way to balance SMP...and if you just wanted to fight mobs, well, put everyone on the same team. Good game. Thoughts?
Suddenly, survival turned into siege mode. Thats just transforming the game, not solving the problem.
God damn it! It is NOT steel, it is IRON! Get it right!
Even with that fixed, instead of using an awesome block we already have Notch should make another ore that will be extremely hard to dig, plus it should be rare.
Anyone with more than a IQ of 99 would figure out to do a grid of the indestructible/longer to dig block to half the need.
The name of may be iron, but iron is brown/black and is the same color as steel, so I don't care what people call it, a shiny metal made from mining and smelting is steel, and a dark metal (stone used in swords) would be iron. :S
This is silly guys. There will be land-claimed flags. This is confirmed. You will not be able to build around someone else's building area. Let's hope that land-claim flags will double as spawn points...at least a limited amount of spawns per flag to prevent ridiculous turtling. Let's analyze some classical defense styles and how they will not work in SMP. I am assuming that a land-claim flag means nobody can build BUT anyone can destroy within the radius.
1. Castles: Will not work. Walls are obsolete. Pillar over or tunnel under. Not hard to bypass. Pillaring over may be impossible with a land-claim flag. Digging under would be impossible if your land claim flag covered the area to the ground AND you destroyed the bottom 3 layers of the map so they couldn't get up. This is a pain and will take lots of time but hey...go for it!
2. Floating Castles: Same idea. I can see this working if it was impossible to get to unless the owner pillared up. You'd have to put lava flowing solid from the top of your house about 10 squares from the main wall in order to defeat pillaring and then building bridges over (except for the extremely persistent.
3. Constant Guard: Yeah, right. Nerd.
4. NPC Guards: This would be awesome, couldn't be too difficult to code (mob-spawners in-game) and would make a constant defense possible. Think of a warhammer-online style keep lord that you could place in your tower with a small guard. Skeletons on the walls. Zombies in the courtyard. That would work and be FUN to attack.
----
Now I think the most exciting way to make the game balanced, allow time for intricate structures, and have PVP and PVE combat would to implement a system like this:
Zones determinted by color
Green zones: Free build for teams. This is where your major structures are built. Giant castles, intricate towns, you name it. Enemy team cannot place, delete, nor collect blocks in your green zone except under special circumstances I will get into in a minute.
Yellow zone: Buffer zone. Can have secondary defenses, or the main defenses, but is designed as a "buffer zone" between red and green. Offensive players cannot affect this zone until red zone is taken.
Red Zone: Buffer zone. Same concept as Yellow zone except offensive players must capture this zone via a flag before they can affect the yellow zone.
Black Zone: Constant PVP Zone. Free-reign PVP. Likely that little building will occur on a wide scale.
Where is this going? Well, I'll tell you.
In each zone there will be a flag. At the beginning of a game players spawn together in the black area and can immediately kill each other. Teams can be designated by admins or by the first people (balanced of course) to get to one or the other green zone.
Black Zone is no-man's-land. Anyone can kill anyone. Given the infinite nature of Minecraft, areas not designated as Green, Yellow, or Red can be considered Black zones. Therefore, within a certain area you've got your castles (limited area) and outside of those borders you have black zones...perhaps yellow and red would radiate in a circle from each green zone, but there would be a veritable valley of these zones that span the area between each green zone.
In order to attack the opposing team's green zone, you would have to go through a series of attacks. First, you would have to attack from the black zone into the red zone and capture the red flag for the opposing team. Doing so would make it impossible for the defending team to attack the offensive team's red zone until they reclaim their own red flag.
Once the red flag has been captured, the offensive team can build in the newly captured red zone, allowing them to make an offensive forward base. Then they must capture the yellow zone. Until the offensive team captures the flag in a red zone, they can only destroy and not build blocks there. They cannot do anything but destroy in yellow zones until they capture both the red flag and the yellow flag.
Once the red flag is captured and the red zone thus controlled, the offensive team can move to capture the yellow flag. Once they've done this, they can build in the yellow zone and prepare for an attack on the green zone.
Once the yellow zone is taken, the green zone becomes a viable target. Remember that up until this point the green zone can only be interacted with by players on the specific zone's team.
The offensive team will always spawn 1 level lower than the level they've captured. This means that if the offensive team captures the yellow zone, they can only spawn back at the red zone. If they control the red zone, they must spawn no closer than their team's red zone on the other side of the black zone. Defending teams can spawn in any zone they control, allowing them the ability to spawn closer to the flag that needs to be captured to reclaim their land. This gives defenders the advantage during a siege.
When the defending team's green zone is taken, they have lost the round. These rounds could take as little as an hour to as long as weeks or months to play. During the entire game mode, each time will need to be constantly gathering resources to continue the war effort and build offensive and defensive materials, meaning that more time will be taken besides just fighting.
Once the green zone is taken the offensive or capturing team will control both bases (the entire map) for a certain amount of time depending on an admin's preference (15 minutes or maybe even an hour...or days, even, depending on how long the battles took depending on the Admin). After this time, the offensive team is teleported back to their original fortress, and a temporary peace is enforced by server rules. You may not invade or attack other players (In green, yellow, or red zones, at least) until this peace time is up. Then the battle begins again. This peace time, as it were, allows the defenders a brief reprieve and time to rebuild their defenses that have likely been decimated by the attacking team.
Now I love this idea. Obviously, it would take TONS of modding to make this work.
Cool stuff:
Resources in your green zone will eventually die out. You will need to mine in the yellow and then red zones to find what you need. Once those are depleted, you will have to move out to the black zone, leaving your base behind and scouring for resources with a constant threat of getting raided. Challenging and fun!
Nobody says you have to fight to take the other team's green zone (castle) 100% of the time. Plenty of fun could be had trying to kill each other off in the infinite black zones that surround each castle.
Players would need to be notified by a server-wide message whenever an enemy player enters and/or attacks a block in each one of the specific non-black zones. This would allow players a warning before the enemy team had captured their castle, giving them time to move back and defend their territory.
The size of each zone could be from 100x100 blocks for small games up to 10000x10000 blocks for big games. The possibilities are endless (I guess...maybe chunk rendering could affect this)
It might work better for zones to be set up this way:
That's kinda rough, but get the idea? everything surrounding that would be unflagged and, therefore, black.
I think this would be a perfect way to balance SMP...and if you just wanted to fight mobs, well, put everyone on the same team. Good game. Thoughts?
How about you just go on a creative green server? problem solved
While other players can cause lots of destruction currently monsters are rather weak. Defense vs monsters in Minecraft is much stronger. As it is griefers really will be the only thing to fear in SMP. I'd like to see monsters beefed up enough so that survival actually goes back to having to fear monsters, not just other players.
While other players can cause lots of destruction currently monsters are rather weak. Defense vs monsters in Minecraft is much stronger. As it is griefers really will be the only thing to fear in SMP. I'd like to see monsters beefed up enough so that survival actually goes back to having to fear monsters, not just other players.
Notch stated that he would have additional mobs made after SMP is finished, which will be needed to actually make surviving with 20 different people difficult. And if surviving with 20 people is difficult, the lone griefer will stand no chance.
Sriking first is not always an option? What if there is a guy who has gotten bored with building his impenetrable underground castle, and has decided to attack every player he sees?
Even a group of people can not find his hideout without following him (requiring HIM to strike first)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
This is silly guys. There will be land-claimed flags. This is confirmed. You will not be able to build around someone else's building area. Let's hope that land-claim flags will double as spawn points...at least a limited amount of spawns per flag to prevent ridiculous turtling. Let's analyze some classical defense styles and how they will not work in SMP. I am assuming that a land-claim flag means nobody can build BUT anyone can destroy within the radius.
-snip-
See this is why I hate you people who go "OH MY GOD THE LAND CLAIM FLAG GOD WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL"
Landflags are a stupid as **** idea and you all know it. I'm all up for making blocks harder to destroy during leaving, but ****ing flags that allow greifers such as I to spam millions surrounded by obs blocks? All it does is **** SMP up.
Everyone imagines a perfect world with huge castles. It's not gonna ****ing be like that. Don't cry if your wooden watchtower gets burnt down. Don't BAW to the land claim flag god when your castle gets TNT'd. ****ing LIVE WITH IT.
it doesnt slow an attacker, i mean seriously, to build an airpocket will require less then 20 blocks of dirt and 2 buckets, build a dirt shelter which takes all of 5 seconds, then use the two buckets to scoop up the 2 squares of water your in, then dig down.
the problem isnt that we dont agree defense should slow down not stop attackers, its that it doesnt slow down the attackers because minecraft was NOT ment to handle a situation like this. it was made to destroy quick because there are not destructive mobs (creepers dont just wander around williy nilly blowin crap up), and because if all items took so long to mine the game would fast become menial at best.
that said i want people to remember that not every survival player is going to level your base either, griefers yes, but if i were to break into your base and steal your loot, youd have a hole in the wall,floor or roof, and a missing chest. actually id probly give you a new chest full of dirt or something silly, maybe reed or something idk i like to be silly. bottom line id go after the goods and leave. i personally wouldnt search for 20 minutes in your base for a chest because theres no garentee something useful is in it, and in 20 minutes i can dig down to lava pools and find some decent ore, i however am not a griefer and i prefer to mine myself anyways.
another idea i have that might atleast halt greifers to some degree is in addition to having a public spawn allow the player to place a spawn flag of their own at their base. if your terribly worried about griefers take an hour walk in some direction or so, yeah this idea has its flaws but most people are concered about griefers not other players, and most griefers are not going to take the effort to walk a random direction for over an hour in hopes they bump into something. they want to gain the most with as little effort as possible.
Suddenly, survival turned into siege mode. Thats just transforming the game, not solving the problem.
"Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
Click here for an awsome game
The name of may be iron, but iron is brown/black and is the same color as steel, so I don't care what people call it, a shiny metal made from mining and smelting is steel, and a dark metal (stone used in swords) would be iron. :S
How about you just go on a creative green server? problem solved
Notch stated that he would have additional mobs made after SMP is finished, which will be needed to actually make surviving with 20 different people difficult. And if surviving with 20 people is difficult, the lone griefer will stand no chance.
Even a group of people can not find his hideout without following him (requiring HIM to strike first)
[quote=8bit]
By balance, do you mean make it totally worthless?
See this is why I hate you people who go "OH MY GOD THE LAND CLAIM FLAG GOD WILL PREVAIL OVER ALL"
Landflags are a stupid as **** idea and you all know it. I'm all up for making blocks harder to destroy during leaving, but ****ing flags that allow greifers such as I to spam millions surrounded by obs blocks? All it does is **** SMP up.
Everyone imagines a perfect world with huge castles. It's not gonna ****ing be like that. Don't cry if your wooden watchtower gets burnt down. Don't BAW to the land claim flag god when your castle gets TNT'd. ****ing LIVE WITH IT.