Well Notch said he was going to add claim flags, so hopefully people wont be able to take items out of your claimed area. So hopefully all of this security will not be necessary.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are two types of people in the world: those who don't find this joke funny and those who are amused by self-referential humour.
Quote from Peri »
Could you guys go five minutes without sigging me?
I'm pretty sure claim-flags were intended as a random spawn deterrent and aesthetic warning.
"IF YOU STEAL FROM HERE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL HAPPEN."
If Notch makes it like that, I will cry a little...
...on the inside
Edit: actually I thought of an alternative, how about a setting the player can adjust on chests like "can be opened by..." and you can list the players you want to have access to your box (people you trust), and make it so chests cannot be opened by people not on the list.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are two types of people in the world: those who don't find this joke funny and those who are amused by self-referential humour.
Quote from Peri »
Could you guys go five minutes without sigging me?
Garrr I hate the idea of inaccessible chests, though.
I do support locks, but they should be breakable through picking or using the right key.
NOTHING should be restricted except adminium borders., as placeable restrictions can lead to over-exploitation IE Haven and Hearth. In the Early stages, everyone bunched up and there was no land at all for anyone to take. Then it became an issue of everyone spreading out TOO far BECAUSE of this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"It is always nice to have a sense of improbability in Littlebigplanet. FROGMORTON. Heh, you didn't expect that now did you?"
-Stephen Fry
Garrr I hate the idea of inaccessible chests, though.
I do support locks, but they should be breakable through picking or using the right key.
NOTHING should be restricted except adminium borders., as placeable restrictions can lead to over-exploitation IE Haven and Hearth. In the Early stages, everyone bunched up and there was no land at all for anyone to take. Then it became an issue of everyone spreading out TOO far BECAUSE of this.
Its a delicate balance. You restrict things, players get upset at the lack of freedom and stop playing. If you make things too open, players complain about the abuse they receive from other players.
Something I've learned in Fallout Online: 2238 is that even when you lose everything, you can still enjoy the game.
I personally support the idea of ways to protect your loot, but at the same time nothing should be inaccessible. It is kind of difficult though. In 2238, you could pitch a tent in the world map to keep safe things you didn't carry around. However, in Minecraft, every player will most likely have the freedom to go anywhere they can...there is no world map to hide behind. This means that anything you aren't holding on you is at risk of being lost...
While I have no real available thought on how to secure your belongings, in the way to make it fair (You can be stolen from with effort, but easy grabs is a no go). I did manage to think up of a way that could possibly help you defend it yourself!
I see talk of land claim flags, and I'm not currently sure of the original idea behind them. As far as I can guess it just sets an area that tells another player "Hey, someone claimed this area...they are using it."
However, if there was some kind of way that when a player sets foot into "Claimed" area, the person who did the claiming would receive a little notification...something like:
SneakThief22 has entered your claimed land.
This would warn you when a player enters your area, naturally. If you know them and know they won't do harm, you can carry on...but if you aren't the trusting type, this gives you time to stop your current job and head on over to see whats up. Possibly communicate with some words...or maybe an arrow or sword too.
However, inside the claimed land, marked objects would give a second warning. Say SneakTheif22 is someone you decided to ignore, maybe they were just passing through. You keep mining, then you get a little sound warning and another message:
SneakThief22 has opened your chest!!
or maybe even
SneakThief22 has started attacking your land/structure!!
Now you know they just want your valuables, so time to teach them a lesson. Put on your armor, whip out your sword, and run back to teach that thief a lesson!
Sadly, this removes stealthy operations, and still factors in that "What if I don't have a sword/Their armor is better" issue.
The only thing I see that might reduce the ability to react quickly is if they can dig under your claimed land, then break through the floor of your base. Naturally, you would get a warning the moment they started on your floor, but if you're far enough way...they could possibly break in, take from chest, and flee from that tunnel as well.
Though, this would also need for them to know -where- your chest is ahead of time...hmnn.
I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too hard, maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.
Maybe this is even the entirely wrong thread to be thinking about such things.
when the multiplayer is out......everyone dont want to contact with another people...(ie they could doubt you will steal their items,or when you leave,the theif will steal your items.)...
we hope a thing called "Lock",we can LOCK our door,LOCK our chest,LOCK our own world......
WHY!why people want to STEAL things!THEY just make all the world WORSE!
-------------------
if im a item hider,i will do:
-hide my chest behind some block that looks like another block beside it.
-do num1,and make a fake chest somewhere else.
-make the wall un-burnble,they could burn my wooden wall to search my chest.
if im a theif,i will do:
-try to burn the wall!
-try use TNT to explode the wall!
-try use tools to tear the wall!
-try another way to CRASH the wall!!!
-look around,maybe i can find some furnace/pictures/crafttable(i like pictures =D)
A couple of arguments toward the chest locking that I can fathom Notch would also make:
(1) How does one 'restrict access' to a specific container, without sealing the whole thing entirely from everyone? It's a wooden box. You open the lid.
(2) How do you know someone is stealing from you when you aren't looking? If a siren goes off, it only brings up the question "How?", and even furthermore, this ruins the point of theft entirely. Guess what? Even if you're alerted your chest is being stolen from, you could run down there with your iron sword, clad in iron armor, and be greeted by someone clad in diamond sword and armor. What could have been just the borrowing of some bread turns into a bloodbath, and you're the loser.
(3) While I am supportive of locks (Find the key to steal from someone. This actually gives greater reward in murdering people, as well as perhaps introducing lock-picking and pickpocketing in the process, which may or may not be fun; it depends), how the hell do you make a lock without precision tools and a lot of time? If it was a makeshift lock, you could probably just bash it with your fist and it'd fall apart. Just saying.
it only takes one hit to start a TnT reaction, fill a tunnel with smoothed stone and TnT hidden in the walls, if they are too eager to get to the chest they hit the TnT while digging and BANG while your chest is behind another couple layers of stone.
A couple of arguments toward the chest locking that I can fathom Notch would also make:
(1) How does one 'restrict access' to a specific container, without sealing the whole thing entirely from everyone? It's a wooden box. You open the lid.
(2) How do you know someone is stealing from you when you aren't looking? If a siren goes off, it only brings up the question "How?", and even furthermore, this ruins the point of theft entirely. Guess what? Even if you're alerted your chest is being stolen from, you could run down there with your iron sword, clad in iron armor, and be greeted by someone clad in diamond sword and armor. What could have been just the borrowing of some bread turns into a bloodbath, and you're the loser.
(3) While I am supportive of locks (Find the key to steal from someone. This actually gives greater reward in murdering people, as well as perhaps introducing lock-picking and pickpocketing in the process, which may or may not be fun; it depends), how the hell do you make a lock without precision tools and a lot of time? If it was a makeshift lock, you could probably just bash it with your fist and it'd fall apart. Just saying.
Why are you bringing up realism arguments in a game in which terrifying waffle men, robots, and anime characters are building things that defy gravity out of conveniently sized cubes which they store in an extradimensional pocket only they have access to. It's patently ridiculous to discuss the sort of hard realism you're talking about, it wouldn't even be realistic within the context of the game. Minecraft is a game of convenience to the player, not convenience to the world or lore.
Why are you bringing up realism arguments in a game in which terrifying waffle men, robots, and anime characters are building things that defy gravity out of conveniently sized cubes which they store in an extradimensional pocket only they have access to. It's patently ridiculous to discuss the sort of hard realism you're talking about, it wouldn't even be realistic within the context of the game. Minecraft is a game of convenience to the player, not convenience to the world or lore.
Oh, okay then. MESSAGE TO NOTCH: DO NOT FIX THE WATER. IT'S PERFECTLY FINE BEING NON-REALISTIC AND FLOOD PRONE. EVERYBODY LIKES THE NON-REALISM.
How about we have magical locking wooden boxes because having someone steal all your stuff isn't fun? Do we really need a reason to have grief protection in place? How about we have warning when someone is trying to ruin our buildings because being off mining and coming back to rubble isn't fun?
I like the lock and key idea, and this is my idea for lockpicks:
They would be one use craftable items (to stop someone with a few diamonds being capable of opening every chest)
And they would take some time to use, so there is a risk of the player coming back with his diamond sword, and seeing you breaking into his chest.They could be made out of better materials to decrease the time needed, but people can make better locks to increase the time taken to pick.
So they would give people the chance to break into chests, while people have the protection of the locks to give them time to get back and stop the theif.
How about we have magical locking wooden boxes because having someone steal all your stuff isn't fun? Do we really need a reason to have grief protection in place? How about we have warning when someone is trying to ruin our buildings because being off mining and coming back to rubble isn't fun?
...
(2) How do you know someone is stealing from you when you aren't looking? If a siren goes off, it only brings up the question "How?", and even furthermore, this ruins the point of theft entirely. Guess what? Even if you're alerted your chest is being stolen from, you could run down there with your iron sword, clad in iron armor, and be greeted by someone clad in diamond sword and armor. What could have been just the borrowing of some bread turns into a bloodbath, and you're the loser.
...
Quote from mikezila »
...
How about we have warning when someone is trying to ruin our buildings because being off mining and coming back to rubble isn't fun?
...
Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts. I mentioned both of these points.
I also understand that with a warning system there is still the "Better weapons and armor" issue...but lets take a look at that for a second.
You, with your iron armor and sword, are busy working away in the mines when you get the warning that someone is stealing from your chests. You run there to deal with them but oh crap! Diamond armor!
You RUN AWAY.
After he leaves, you come back to check your own losses...
Chances are, if they have diamond armor, they don't NEED anything you and your iron armed self has yet, maybe they just took a few healing items. Easily replaced. However, this is assuming the person doesn't have the thought process "Diamond makes me unstoppable, I'll make sure nobody else gets any!" and they take everything from every player.
Again, looking on the other side of that situation: If the player causes trouble for multiple people, wouldn't some kind of player group form together for revenge on the man? Even with diamond armor, I would like to think a group of people with bows and iron swords could take him down.
Even if he doesn't cause trouble for multiple people, don't you think that some players out there might lend a hand on helping you get back at him?
To hide my stuff, I'd find somewhere behind a mountain, near nothing. Preferably with sand and dirt. Dig down a 2 by 1 shaft until I hit stone. Place the chest there. Bury it with the same layers that were there before. No landmarks, no nothing, just a map which I would draw by hand in real life. If I'm holding it in my hands, some other player isn't going to take it or read it.
If it's nice and open, then you can see if you were being followed.
This especially works if you decide to bury it under water. (Use an iron shovel and it's more than possible, you only have to surface for a split second to refill your air)
You could have an underwater base nearby, with a disguised tunnel to your treasure chests if you feel like sacrificing some security for convenience.
If you're willing to spend on it, a fake chest can be more convincing if you make a chest with a couple of gold blocks in it. They might loot that chest and leave, leaving your chest with 20 gold blocks + some bars and a few dozen diamond alone.
If you bury your chest like above, you could put your decoy above your real chest, so that anyone who somehow found it would hit the fake chest first.
=====================
And if people can form groups to get revenge, what stops people forming groups that rob people? I bet it would be a good sum for a group that robs some long established player's castle.
If you don't want others to have it, then carry it yourself. Or hide it somewhere. Don't slaughter pigs if you can't carry it and don't want others to have it, let them slaughter the pigs themselves. You can carry your diamonds and if you need a tool once in a while you can craft it. And if you want to store it somewhere, there's risks involved.
You have plenty of inventory space already. Surely you can carry everything you need already. Building stuff might get a little bit trickier if you don't want to discard/hide any of your stuff (resulting in less inventory space available for stacking 64 blocks).
...
While I can agree with this, there is still the issue: What happens when you die?
Do you lose all of your stuff?
If you do, is it dropped on the ground for free grabs?
If we lose stuff we're holding when we die, and assuming we're able to come back...the reason we would want to store things is to protect those items from players who would just run around killing everyone.
I've always figured in the "Lose everything when you die" feel though, so perhaps I should look at this all in a new light. If we keep stuff when we die, then I most definitely would like to say "Problem solved", inventory management can be done. I mean, the stuff you would really need to hang on to wouldn't take too much inventory space...and things like Cobblestone, Dirt, and Wood. That stuff is everywhere anyways, no harm done if you toss a few. Take what you need and keep moving.
Though, not losing things when you die kinda takes the "survive" point out of survival wouldn't it?
5/19/13 Expect Us
"IF YOU STEAL FROM HERE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WILL HAPPEN."
-Stephen Fry
If Notch makes it like that, I will cry a little...
...on the inside
Edit: actually I thought of an alternative, how about a setting the player can adjust on chests like "can be opened by..." and you can list the players you want to have access to your box (people you trust), and make it so chests cannot be opened by people not on the list.
5/19/13 Expect Us
I do support locks, but they should be breakable through picking or using the right key.
NOTHING should be restricted except adminium borders., as placeable restrictions can lead to over-exploitation IE Haven and Hearth. In the Early stages, everyone bunched up and there was no land at all for anyone to take. Then it became an issue of everyone spreading out TOO far BECAUSE of this.
-Stephen Fry
Its a delicate balance. You restrict things, players get upset at the lack of freedom and stop playing. If you make things too open, players complain about the abuse they receive from other players.
Something I've learned in Fallout Online: 2238 is that even when you lose everything, you can still enjoy the game.
I personally support the idea of ways to protect your loot, but at the same time nothing should be inaccessible. It is kind of difficult though. In 2238, you could pitch a tent in the world map to keep safe things you didn't carry around. However, in Minecraft, every player will most likely have the freedom to go anywhere they can...there is no world map to hide behind. This means that anything you aren't holding on you is at risk of being lost...
While I have no real available thought on how to secure your belongings, in the way to make it fair (You can be stolen from with effort, but easy grabs is a no go). I did manage to think up of a way that could possibly help you defend it yourself!
I see talk of land claim flags, and I'm not currently sure of the original idea behind them. As far as I can guess it just sets an area that tells another player "Hey, someone claimed this area...they are using it."
However, if there was some kind of way that when a player sets foot into "Claimed" area, the person who did the claiming would receive a little notification...something like:
SneakThief22 has entered your claimed land.
This would warn you when a player enters your area, naturally. If you know them and know they won't do harm, you can carry on...but if you aren't the trusting type, this gives you time to stop your current job and head on over to see whats up. Possibly communicate with some words...or maybe an arrow or sword too.
However, inside the claimed land, marked objects would give a second warning. Say SneakTheif22 is someone you decided to ignore, maybe they were just passing through. You keep mining, then you get a little sound warning and another message:
SneakThief22 has opened your chest!!
or maybe even
SneakThief22 has started attacking your land/structure!!
Now you know they just want your valuables, so time to teach them a lesson. Put on your armor, whip out your sword, and run back to teach that thief a lesson!
Sadly, this removes stealthy operations, and still factors in that "What if I don't have a sword/Their armor is better" issue.
The only thing I see that might reduce the ability to react quickly is if they can dig under your claimed land, then break through the floor of your base. Naturally, you would get a warning the moment they started on your floor, but if you're far enough way...they could possibly break in, take from chest, and flee from that tunnel as well.
Though, this would also need for them to know -where- your chest is ahead of time...hmnn.
I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too hard, maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.
Maybe this is even the entirely wrong thread to be thinking about such things.
we hope a thing called "Lock",we can LOCK our door,LOCK our chest,LOCK our own world......
WHY!why people want to STEAL things!THEY just make all the world WORSE!
-------------------
if im a item hider,i will do:
-hide my chest behind some block that looks like another block beside it.
-do num1,and make a fake chest somewhere else.
-make the wall un-burnble,they could burn my wooden wall to search my chest.
if im a theif,i will do:
-try to burn the wall!
-try use TNT to explode the wall!
-try use tools to tear the wall!
-try another way to CRASH the wall!!!
-look around,maybe i can find some furnace/pictures/crafttable(i like pictures =D)
(1) How does one 'restrict access' to a specific container, without sealing the whole thing entirely from everyone? It's a wooden box. You open the lid.
(2) How do you know someone is stealing from you when you aren't looking? If a siren goes off, it only brings up the question "How?", and even furthermore, this ruins the point of theft entirely. Guess what? Even if you're alerted your chest is being stolen from, you could run down there with your iron sword, clad in iron armor, and be greeted by someone clad in diamond sword and armor. What could have been just the borrowing of some bread turns into a bloodbath, and you're the loser.
(3) While I am supportive of locks (Find the key to steal from someone. This actually gives greater reward in murdering people, as well as perhaps introducing lock-picking and pickpocketing in the process, which may or may not be fun; it depends), how the hell do you make a lock without precision tools and a lot of time? If it was a makeshift lock, you could probably just bash it with your fist and it'd fall apart. Just saying.
Why are you bringing up realism arguments in a game in which terrifying waffle men, robots, and anime characters are building things that defy gravity out of conveniently sized cubes which they store in an extradimensional pocket only they have access to. It's patently ridiculous to discuss the sort of hard realism you're talking about, it wouldn't even be realistic within the context of the game. Minecraft is a game of convenience to the player, not convenience to the world or lore.
Oh, okay then.
MESSAGE TO NOTCH: DO NOT FIX THE WATER. IT'S PERFECTLY FINE BEING NON-REALISTIC AND FLOOD PRONE. EVERYBODY LIKES THE NON-REALISM.
Yep.
I should make that big, actually.
AS FAR AS PEOPLE GO YOU ARE NOT OVERBURDENED WITH INTELLIGENCE
They would be one use craftable items (to stop someone with a few diamonds being capable of opening every chest)
And they would take some time to use, so there is a risk of the player coming back with his diamond sword, and seeing you breaking into his chest.They could be made out of better materials to decrease the time needed, but people can make better locks to increase the time taken to pick.
So they would give people the chance to break into chests, while people have the protection of the locks to give them time to get back and stop the theif.
But robbing other people *is* fun.
Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts. I mentioned both of these points.
I also understand that with a warning system there is still the "Better weapons and armor" issue...but lets take a look at that for a second.
You, with your iron armor and sword, are busy working away in the mines when you get the warning that someone is stealing from your chests. You run there to deal with them but oh crap! Diamond armor!
You RUN AWAY.
After he leaves, you come back to check your own losses...
Chances are, if they have diamond armor, they don't NEED anything you and your iron armed self has yet, maybe they just took a few healing items. Easily replaced. However, this is assuming the person doesn't have the thought process "Diamond makes me unstoppable, I'll make sure nobody else gets any!" and they take everything from every player.
Again, looking on the other side of that situation: If the player causes trouble for multiple people, wouldn't some kind of player group form together for revenge on the man? Even with diamond armor, I would like to think a group of people with bows and iron swords could take him down.
Even if he doesn't cause trouble for multiple people, don't you think that some players out there might lend a hand on helping you get back at him?
If it's nice and open, then you can see if you were being followed.
This especially works if you decide to bury it under water. (Use an iron shovel and it's more than possible, you only have to surface for a split second to refill your air)
You could have an underwater base nearby, with a disguised tunnel to your treasure chests if you feel like sacrificing some security for convenience.
If you're willing to spend on it, a fake chest can be more convincing if you make a chest with a couple of gold blocks in it. They might loot that chest and leave, leaving your chest with 20 gold blocks + some bars and a few dozen diamond alone.
If you bury your chest like above, you could put your decoy above your real chest, so that anyone who somehow found it would hit the fake chest first.
=====================
And if people can form groups to get revenge, what stops people forming groups that rob people? I bet it would be a good sum for a group that robs some long established player's castle.
NOT! The textures are very different. And yes, hiding stuff is a good idea, why not just bury it under a tree or something, or hide your whole base.
While I can agree with this, there is still the issue: What happens when you die?
Do you lose all of your stuff?
If you do, is it dropped on the ground for free grabs?
If we lose stuff we're holding when we die, and assuming we're able to come back...the reason we would want to store things is to protect those items from players who would just run around killing everyone.
I've always figured in the "Lose everything when you die" feel though, so perhaps I should look at this all in a new light. If we keep stuff when we die, then I most definitely would like to say "Problem solved", inventory management can be done. I mean, the stuff you would really need to hang on to wouldn't take too much inventory space...and things like Cobblestone, Dirt, and Wood. That stuff is everywhere anyways, no harm done if you toss a few. Take what you need and keep moving.
Though, not losing things when you die kinda takes the "survive" point out of survival wouldn't it?