Arena's ruined PvP in WoW? Are you high? Before battlegrounds, hell, before release, the only PvP in the game was open world PvP. This was great... Right up until people started hitting the level cap. Which essentially turned world PvP into a 24/7 gankfest that camped newb towns and waited for some level 12 druid to whimsically cast MotW on an npc so that they could gang-r*pe him as soon as he stepped outside.
Yeah, what a pristine model of game design.
I understand that some people LOVED world PvP. I did too, once. I had some serious fun tracking down 'enemy' players through the forests of ashenvale with my friends. But the fact that character power rose dramatically with gear and level essentially ruined the entire concept of open combat. Then, blizzard implemented Battlegrounds, which had level brackets. This was an IMMENSELY positive change. In fact, if you played on a PvP server, it was beyond awesome, because you could finally quest with your alts without getting smoked by bored 60s.
The change to introduce Battlegrounds was not an after-the fact design reaction, by the way. This was something blizzard had planned about and advertised long before the game was even in alpha. But it definitely altered the face of WoW PvP. It was not a concession to FPS gamers. It was about providing a system of rewards to PvP, because PvP was intended to be an optional method of gear progression.
I understand the desire to blame things on people who play/ed counterstrike. I do. It was a hideous, hideous game with terrible design, and the only people who ever enjoyed that game were people who thrived on split second reaction without thought. I am the opposite kind of gamer, and I imagine you are too, so I understand how easy it is to see that mentality everywhere. But even though the end result of WoW PvP ended up something like counterstrike, where stratagems and planning were nothing compared to having latency or twitch skills, (or cheese-ball builds that focused on PoM Pyroblast or 3.8 delay MS) the FPS community had nothing to do with it. the state of WoW came about due to a desire to have options for character progression beyond PvE questing and raiding.
How is this relevant to minecraft? Because minecraft is not, and has never been, a game about progression. You don't build things to increase the power of your character. You build things because it's fun to build things. Sometimes, you build things that have a purpose. And I'm sure, with the addition of PvP, some of those things will exist to kill other players. But PvP in minecraft is really more like structure versus player. I mean, seriously. How many people are going to run at the other dude with a diamond sword? Why do that when you can dump lava on him, or make a GIANT TNT CANNON, or lead him through your crazy trap-filled labyrinth, or what-have you.
The entire point of minecraft is that it LACKS structure. Minecraft doesn't have the concept of character unlocks or experience or phat lewt. It has blocks.
Because minecraft lacks the concept of individual progression, there is no impetus for the designer to build any sort of structure around combat. Players will provide their own structure, and it will be way more interesting than anything a pre-packaged game in a box could deliver.
You fear that Notch will add new game modes that will spoil the idea of a completely open-ended minecraft PvP experience to placate gamers that want more structure. And that is a valid fear. But the reality is so much more dire. What is actually going to happen, is that Notch will add in PvP and then more or less ignore it. Because that is how Notch designs things in minecraft. He adds something, he smooths the bugs out, and then he lets us figure out what to do with it. The future of minecraft PvP is actually going to be completely decided by the community. And people are going to mess around with it for a while, and then come up with spin-offs and mods, and one or two of these is going to win out, and then that will be all anyone really plays. This process will take 2-3 years. How do I know this? Because that's how games and the internet work.
So your idea of 'pure' minecraft PvP is totally doomed, and it has nothing to do with Notch, or the FPS community.
On the plus side, 'pure' minecraft PvP would be total ****. Have you taken a second to think about what the machine-gun bow is going to do to players? Or how utterly impossible it is to build anything that people won't dismantle in seconds? Or what the landscape is going to look like after a 'battle?' Vanilla minecraft PvP will be utter chaos.
Tomorrow I plan on a TDM server with hour long matches (first half build, second half fight) and then map resets. Definitely not what you think of when you think minecraft SMP, but I don't really see how opening up more possibilities for ways to play hurts minecraft.
The fact that it started as a sandbox with crude combat doesn't mean that's the way Notch intended it to stay. If he didn't want combat he wouldn't have refined it into what it currently is. Simply because monsters and multiplayer code came later (which is logical given how much more complex they are) doesn't mean they weren't planned from the start.
Just wait, you'll get Creative Alpha, then everyone will be happy. Until then play on servers aimed towards creative building rather than combat. There's plenty of both to be found.
-This is the original post completely snipped. This is what I'm replying to since it is late and I cannot read all of the replies-
I can only say that I completely disagree with everything you said. I'm just adding to what I have seen to be a large group of people saying the same thing as I'm thinking (I just skimmed the replies, it's very late). Basically I'm saying that you're completely wrong and I'm really not trying to be mean or flaming in any way...I just don't know how else to put it on short notice.
So to paraphrase: You're wrong and I'm only saying so to back up everyone else in this thread who is saying the same thing as I don't have time to actually make any points.
Still don't know why people compare it to WoW and only use arena as we had pvp enabled servers , horde vs alliance, at the very start and that was a lot more fun before they added the battle grounds.
Not to mention when they added the feature to let different servers fight each other in the BG areas the people with the experiance on pvp servers tended to steam roll those other players from the carebear servers. :tongue.gif:
But saying WoW was not about pvp until then is just wrong as the pvp servers tended to be the most popular for that reason, especially when players made raids on other factions cities when it was still possible.
. . . which is one of the largest franchises and is still growing.
Ultimately, it's a game. The point is to have fun, not to build a holier than thou exclusive group around it.
I for one do not see the resemblance to FPS games.
In any case, Notch's vision seems to be to have RPG elements in it, not FPS elements. From what I can tell, his vision was never to have it be a pure sandbox.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When all is said and done, Will you have said more than you have done?
PvP will affect minecraft on a very limited scale (assuming you only lose the items in your inventory at the time of death). The true beauty of the game are the objects we construct - not the character we happen to have. As a long time competitive-fps player, I can assure you that there will definitely be some people who would love to kill other players on minecraft, and assuming the server allows PvP in the first place, what would you actually lose? Some time (assuming you are far from home/respawn), and perhaps some items (only those in your inventory). These PvP griefers would basically play the role of zombies/monsters that can be present at any time (day or night) - annoying and delaying the efforts of the players. Sure you can get spawn camped, and repeatedly killed, but again - what's the point? There is no training or levelling up of your character, so learning to fight in this game is useless - might as well learn to fight in other games like CS, COD, BF, or even jedi outcast or dark messiah might and magic if you want to fight with swords - at least they have moneyed tournaments and have better graphics. Either way, surely PvP-disabling and perma-bans can easily deal with any of these problems.
In minecraft, the only source of REAL loss, and really, the only thing of REAL value in the game are time and creations. Time is quantized in terms of the blocks that you mine for future construction (ie. the stuff you harvest and place in your chest(s)/inventory). Creations are quantized in terms of the constructed objects you create (ie. buildings, highways, etc). Since what is most valuable in this game (minecraft) is not your character stats or riches, but the buildings/objects you have created, you need only protect those creations and those chests and the core of the game we have come to know will survive.
Then, however, Blizzard decided that they wanted the Quake/Halo/CounterStrike/GoW demographic's money.
I stopped reading right there. Noone's playing world of gaycraft because it's like a fps. It's nothing like an fps. If you think its combat system is similar, you're a tard. Just because something is first person does not make it like the standard combat of a first person shooter. The low health and quick attacks have a lot more to do with the combat, and fps and tps are more similar by a freaking eternity than typical fps combat and wow.
Actually i also read ahead a bit more and saw your combat about it changing wow and this originally being a singleplayer survival game.. etc and so on. Nothing notch does to smp is going to change what this game originally was because, as you said, it was singleplayer. Also, THIS IS NOT A FREAKING MMO. That's right, instead of one or a couple worlds there are hundreds or thousands. Pvp as a whole can be turned off with a single flag, if you're silly enough to think that would "change" what smp was meant to be (even though it was meant to have pvp, so you're more talking about what it was before it was as complete). Also there are these things called plugins which let you go well beyond the options notch gives. If you don't like combat and pvp then don't play on a server that allows it, instead of whining to have it removed when it was originally meant to be part of smp.
Basically your post fails.
Oh and one more thing
WORLD OF WARCRAFT IS CRAP, WAS CRAP, AND WILL FOREVER BE CRAP. World of warcraft has more in common with modern warfare than minecraft even WITH it being nothing like a standard fps - know why? Because its crap created for the mass market, a bland turd meant to not offend or completely put off as many as possible from the pure benefit-less addiction mechanism that is at its heart and the heart of all other mass market mmos. Saying it was ruined invalidates your opinion because it was never anything but trash.
I'm going to say something in this post which, while controversial, I believe needs to be said. I am, however, also going to try to say it as diplomatically as possible. The main reason why, is because I believe that, as well as arguing from the perspective of my own best interests, I'm actually trying to advocate the best interests of my audience, as well. I want to see the needs of both groups met.
Some of you probably remember a game from 2005, called World of Warcraft. WoW wasn't originally primarily PvP centric, at all. There was a time, before the introduction of the Arena, when it was focused primarily on questing, raiding and 5 man instances; the main form of PvP that existed was in-world, and there were actually some who enjoyed that a lot more.
Then, however, Blizzard decided that they wanted the Quake/Halo/CounterStrike/GoW demographic's money. So they started courting them. Initially the Arena came, but after it did, there was an internal realisation that they had created a monster; a monster which, once unleashed, could not be restrained. The Arena demographic ultimately ended up completely dominating the development direction of WoW; if you happened to enjoy a different element of the game, you were completely out of luck.
This ended up more or less completely destroying WoW. WoW's roleplaying community, the game's original target demographic, had become extremely unhappy, because WoW had essentially become a hybrid FPS. The FPS community, on the other hand, were also still extremely unhappy and frustrated themselves as well, because of the fact that what they now had was still a very clumsy, unwieldy hybrid, between an RPG, which had FPS mechanics very uncleanly grafted on.
My point is primarily this:- At the moment, I am worried that history is going to repeat itself with Minecraft. Minecraft was originally a single player, 8 bit sandbox construction game; which just happened to have a certain amount of extremely crude combat with monsters. There are a number of people from the multiplayer FPS community, however, who are trying to put considerable pressure on Notch to abandon his original vision for this game, and instead focus on simply making Minecraft an 8 bit clone of CounterStrike, with blocks.
I am making an appeal, here. If you are predominantly, internally and psychologically, a multiplayer FPS gamer, I am asking you to recognise the fact that Minecraft is most likely not for you. I am also asking you to be willing to allow a game outside of your target genre to continue to exist, without incessantly bullying its' developer to turn it into a clone of your pre-existing favourite game.
I am not merely making this request, also, from the vantage point of my own best interests. I'm actually trying to do you a favour, as well. The end result of your bullying Notch, is not going to be the type of pure FPS that you would want. Instead, it would be the kind of ungraceful, hybridised mess that WoW has become. It would cause you endless frustration and aggravation, because it would still have, on a vestigial basis, elements of the non-FPS game that Minecraft originally was, before your campaign against Notch began.
So please; if you want to play CounterStrike with your friends, I have no issue with you doing that at all. I sincerely hope you enjoy yourselves. I would, however, ask that you allow the rest of us to enjoy ourselves likewise. Those of us who do want to build; who want to play on Peaceful even, and who are, in actual fact, the exact type of individuals who you have derided as carebears, throughout the history of numerous games which you have ultimately destroyed; not just this one.
The reality is that we have exactly the same right to exist, and derive the type of enjoyment that is relevant and appropriate to us from games, as you do. I'm speaking out about this because I'm a little more aggressive than the average gaming herbivore, to use that analogy; in that sense my own personality is actually somewhat closer to your own. So I want to serve as a voice for a much larger group, who generally remain silent until it is too late.
You do understand FPS= First person shooter? WoW is an mmorpg with pvp not an FPS. Minecraft already could be mistaken for an FPS. Notch wants to make a game for the whole of the Minecraft community whether it be sp or smp. Every game evolves.
I'm sure Notch has nightmares about the history of WoW repeating itself with Minecraft.
I mean, who really wants to end up with the most popular and profitable MMO in the world?
this, i give you one sir.
also, WoW is no where NEAR a fps, sure you can go first person view, but almost EVERYTHING is point, click and wait -.-, jesus Minecraft ALREADY is more of a FPS then WoW with the automatic Bow lol
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You did not buy the game, you helped fund development. In return you got an early, buggy build.
Yeah, what a pristine model of game design.
I understand that some people LOVED world PvP. I did too, once. I had some serious fun tracking down 'enemy' players through the forests of ashenvale with my friends. But the fact that character power rose dramatically with gear and level essentially ruined the entire concept of open combat. Then, blizzard implemented Battlegrounds, which had level brackets. This was an IMMENSELY positive change. In fact, if you played on a PvP server, it was beyond awesome, because you could finally quest with your alts without getting smoked by bored 60s.
The change to introduce Battlegrounds was not an after-the fact design reaction, by the way. This was something blizzard had planned about and advertised long before the game was even in alpha. But it definitely altered the face of WoW PvP. It was not a concession to FPS gamers. It was about providing a system of rewards to PvP, because PvP was intended to be an optional method of gear progression.
I understand the desire to blame things on people who play/ed counterstrike. I do. It was a hideous, hideous game with terrible design, and the only people who ever enjoyed that game were people who thrived on split second reaction without thought. I am the opposite kind of gamer, and I imagine you are too, so I understand how easy it is to see that mentality everywhere. But even though the end result of WoW PvP ended up something like counterstrike, where stratagems and planning were nothing compared to having latency or twitch skills, (or cheese-ball builds that focused on PoM Pyroblast or 3.8 delay MS) the FPS community had nothing to do with it. the state of WoW came about due to a desire to have options for character progression beyond PvE questing and raiding.
How is this relevant to minecraft? Because minecraft is not, and has never been, a game about progression. You don't build things to increase the power of your character. You build things because it's fun to build things. Sometimes, you build things that have a purpose. And I'm sure, with the addition of PvP, some of those things will exist to kill other players. But PvP in minecraft is really more like structure versus player. I mean, seriously. How many people are going to run at the other dude with a diamond sword? Why do that when you can dump lava on him, or make a GIANT TNT CANNON, or lead him through your crazy trap-filled labyrinth, or what-have you.
The entire point of minecraft is that it LACKS structure. Minecraft doesn't have the concept of character unlocks or experience or phat lewt. It has blocks.
Because minecraft lacks the concept of individual progression, there is no impetus for the designer to build any sort of structure around combat. Players will provide their own structure, and it will be way more interesting than anything a pre-packaged game in a box could deliver.
You fear that Notch will add new game modes that will spoil the idea of a completely open-ended minecraft PvP experience to placate gamers that want more structure. And that is a valid fear. But the reality is so much more dire. What is actually going to happen, is that Notch will add in PvP and then more or less ignore it. Because that is how Notch designs things in minecraft. He adds something, he smooths the bugs out, and then he lets us figure out what to do with it. The future of minecraft PvP is actually going to be completely decided by the community. And people are going to mess around with it for a while, and then come up with spin-offs and mods, and one or two of these is going to win out, and then that will be all anyone really plays. This process will take 2-3 years. How do I know this? Because that's how games and the internet work.
So your idea of 'pure' minecraft PvP is totally doomed, and it has nothing to do with Notch, or the FPS community.
On the plus side, 'pure' minecraft PvP would be total ****. Have you taken a second to think about what the machine-gun bow is going to do to players? Or how utterly impossible it is to build anything that people won't dismantle in seconds? Or what the landscape is going to look like after a 'battle?' Vanilla minecraft PvP will be utter chaos.
Tomorrow I plan on a TDM server with hour long matches (first half build, second half fight) and then map resets. Definitely not what you think of when you think minecraft SMP, but I don't really see how opening up more possibilities for ways to play hurts minecraft.
The fact that it started as a sandbox with crude combat doesn't mean that's the way Notch intended it to stay. If he didn't want combat he wouldn't have refined it into what it currently is. Simply because monsters and multiplayer code came later (which is logical given how much more complex they are) doesn't mean they weren't planned from the start.
Just wait, you'll get Creative Alpha, then everyone will be happy. Until then play on servers aimed towards creative building rather than combat. There's plenty of both to be found.
I can only say that I completely disagree with everything you said. I'm just adding to what I have seen to be a large group of people saying the same thing as I'm thinking (I just skimmed the replies, it's very late). Basically I'm saying that you're completely wrong and I'm really not trying to be mean or flaming in any way...I just don't know how else to put it on short notice.
So to paraphrase: You're wrong and I'm only saying so to back up everyone else in this thread who is saying the same thing as I don't have time to actually make any points.
Not to mention when they added the feature to let different servers fight each other in the BG areas the people with the experiance on pvp servers tended to steam roll those other players from the carebear servers. :tongue.gif:
But saying WoW was not about pvp until then is just wrong as the pvp servers tended to be the most popular for that reason, especially when players made raids on other factions cities when it was still possible.
. . . which is one of the largest franchises and is still growing.
Ultimately, it's a game. The point is to have fun, not to build a holier than thou exclusive group around it.
I for one do not see the resemblance to FPS games.
In any case, Notch's vision seems to be to have RPG elements in it, not FPS elements. From what I can tell, his vision was never to have it be a pure sandbox.
In minecraft, the only source of REAL loss, and really, the only thing of REAL value in the game are time and creations. Time is quantized in terms of the blocks that you mine for future construction (ie. the stuff you harvest and place in your chest(s)/inventory). Creations are quantized in terms of the constructed objects you create (ie. buildings, highways, etc). Since what is most valuable in this game (minecraft) is not your character stats or riches, but the buildings/objects you have created, you need only protect those creations and those chests and the core of the game we have come to know will survive.
I stopped reading right there. Noone's playing world of gaycraft because it's like a fps. It's nothing like an fps. If you think its combat system is similar, you're a tard. Just because something is first person does not make it like the standard combat of a first person shooter. The low health and quick attacks have a lot more to do with the combat, and fps and tps are more similar by a freaking eternity than typical fps combat and wow.
Actually i also read ahead a bit more and saw your combat about it changing wow and this originally being a singleplayer survival game.. etc and so on. Nothing notch does to smp is going to change what this game originally was because, as you said, it was singleplayer. Also, THIS IS NOT A FREAKING MMO. That's right, instead of one or a couple worlds there are hundreds or thousands. Pvp as a whole can be turned off with a single flag, if you're silly enough to think that would "change" what smp was meant to be (even though it was meant to have pvp, so you're more talking about what it was before it was as complete). Also there are these things called plugins which let you go well beyond the options notch gives. If you don't like combat and pvp then don't play on a server that allows it, instead of whining to have it removed when it was originally meant to be part of smp.
Basically your post fails.
Oh and one more thing
WORLD OF WARCRAFT IS CRAP, WAS CRAP, AND WILL FOREVER BE CRAP. World of warcraft has more in common with modern warfare than minecraft even WITH it being nothing like a standard fps - know why? Because its crap created for the mass market, a bland turd meant to not offend or completely put off as many as possible from the pure benefit-less addiction mechanism that is at its heart and the heart of all other mass market mmos. Saying it was ruined invalidates your opinion because it was never anything but trash.
You do understand FPS= First person shooter? WoW is an mmorpg with pvp not an FPS. Minecraft already could be mistaken for an FPS. Notch wants to make a game for the whole of the Minecraft community whether it be sp or smp. Every game evolves.
this, i give you one sir.
also, WoW is no where NEAR a fps, sure you can go first person view, but almost EVERYTHING is point, click and wait -.-, jesus Minecraft ALREADY is more of a FPS then WoW with the automatic Bow lol