Anyone who wants to say "it's ok because big developers do it all the time!"; first off, try knowing what you're talking about. Second, here's a little snippet of what happens to even big dogs when they put things on someone's computer they didn't agree to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_C ... on_scandal
You break the law, there are consequences. Too many kids aren't taught that these days.
Quote from Swingerzetta »
I was in the process of investigating whether or not the claims of MCAdmin being considered malware or otherwise harmful software was accurate. In the end I concluded it probably was, but by then Doridian had apologized and changed it. It has been, and is being, discussed, but since the programming decision didn't appear to be malicious in intent and was changed promptly, so far I'm considering this an honest mistake. He has definitely payed for this mistake, here and elsewhere, so punishing him for the sake of punishment wouldn't accomplish anything except maybe make people feel a little more like justice was working smoothly. Hopefully my explanation will suffice there.
This is a rather limp 'slap on the wrist' response. You're showing that such things are tolerated, giving way for similar actions in the future. Punishment isn't just for 'punishment's sake' - it's because justice is necessary for a community to function. Maybe you think banning is too harsh, but you'd better respond somehow.
I was in the process of investigating whether or not the claims of MCAdmin being considered malware or otherwise harmful software was accurate. In the end I concluded it probably was, but by then Doridian had apologized and changed it. It has been, and is being, discussed, but since the programming decision didn't appear to be malicious in intent and was changed promptly, so far I'm considering this an honest mistake. He has definitely payed for this mistake, here and elsewhere, so punishing him for the sake of punishment wouldn't accomplish anything except maybe make people feel a little more like justice was working smoothly. Hopefully my explanation will suffice there.
This is a rather limp 'slap on the wrist' response. You're showing that such things are tolerated, giving way for similar actions in the future. Punishment isn't just for 'punishment's sake' - it's because justice is necessary for a community to function. Maybe you think banning is too harsh, but you'd better respond somehow.
Swinger clearly stated why no action was taken, perhaps you should read it again.
FineWolf, we get it, you're a moral hero, but you're wrong. Xarinatan explained it perfectly: "Doridian never deployed any malicious content through his auto update feature, which makes it a perfect comparison to the 'backdoors' of all other major software companies."
Doridian was a fool with what he did -- as he has accepted -- but what he did is in no way illegal. There's a difference between being able to upload malicious code and actually doing it. Steam have the ability to push malicious code to my computer, as do many other companies and it's totally legal because they DON'T. I'd love to see proof that you contacted the police/fbi/government because you're going to be laughed at.
Doridian broke no laws, if he did, why can't you cite them? Doridian was an idiot through misguided ideals, he did not break the law.
Regarding action we're "taking": What Doridian did was moronic but not illegal. While we don't condone distribution of such software -- if you find any report it to us -- we will strive to remove said software, we won't encourage this ******** personal harassment. This should have ended when the original threads were locked, nobody should still be arguing about this.
Interesting thread. I wasn't aware of all the commotion as I took down my MCAdmin server about a month ago until SMP health is implemented. As others have stated, it should have been made abundantly clear that such controls were in fact in the program, and you admit you were at fault here. As for being "power hungry" and so forth, I'd say it's your software, go nuts with it. If people don't like it, they can use a different type of server program. Folks that are not satisfied can stop frequenting MCAdmin's servers and stop using MCAdmin for their own servers. I for one am fine with it, and plan to launch MCAdmin again once SMP health is implemented. I appreciate all the work you've done Doridian.
well Maybe it's time to open your eyes, it wasn't malware, and the flaming of some users was intolerably harsh and unrelated to the software altogether at some point.
To quote Wikipedia:
Malware (also: scumware), short for malicious software, is software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent.
Was it Malware, YES.
Was some users here harsh and attacked Doridian about things unrelated to the MCAdmin fiasco, YES.
Malware (also: scumware), short for malicious software, is software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent.[/i]
Downloading software and installing it is implied consent, your argument would never stand up in a legal setting.
is software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent
1) I did not access the computer system. I accessed MCAdmin AT MOST and I did not even use that on this guy's server as far as I know.
2) It was not secret, any use of developer mode was announced in chat.
FineWolf, we get it, you're a moral hero, but you're wrong. Xarinatan explained it perfectly: "Doridian never deployed any malicious content through his auto update feature, which makes it a perfect comparison to the 'backdoors' of all other major software companies."
Doridian was a fool with what he did -- as he has accepted -- but what he did is in no way illegal. There's a difference between being able to upload malicious code and actually doing it. Steam have the ability to push malicious code to my computer, as do many other companies and it's totally legal because they DON'T. I'd love to see proof that you contacted the police/fbi/government because you're going to be laughed at.
Doridian broke no laws, if he did, why can't you cite them? Doridian was an idiot through misguided ideals, he did not break the law.
Regarding action we're "taking": What Doridian did was moronic but not illegal. While we don't condone distribution of such software -- if you find any report it to us -- we will strive to remove said software, we won't encourage this ******** personal harassment. This should have ended when the original threads were locked, nobody should still be arguing about this.
I did cite the laws in question multiple times... Let me cite them again...
German Criminal Code
§303a: Data tampering
(1) Whosoever unlawfully deletes, suppresses, renders unusable or alters data (§202a (2)) shall be liable to imprisonment of not more than two years or a fine.
MCAdmin rendered the server instance unusable for the admin banned by the global ban list. It was essentially cutting of control of software run by an operator from the operator itself through data manipulation.
(2) The attempt shall be punishable.
§303b: Computer sabotage
(1) Whosoever interferes with data processing operations which are of substantial importance to another by
1. committing an offence under §303a (1); or
2. entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another; or
That's the biggy here. On that note, Doridian did transmit data in the intention of causing damage to the server admin who banned him, as admitted himself on the OP of this thread.
3. destroying, damaging, rendering unusable, removing or altering a data processing system or a data carrier,
By banning the server op from his own server, Doridian rendered unusable the Minecraft server (aka data processsing system [yes, it processes data]).
shall be liable to imprisonment of not more than three years or a fine.
(2) If the data processing operation is of substantial importance for another's business, enterprise or a public authority, the penalty shall be imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.
(3) The attempt shall be punishable.
(4) In especially serious cases under subsection (2) above the penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to ten years. An especially serious case typically occurs if the offender
1. causes major financial loss,
2. acts on a commercial basis or as a member of a gang whose purpose is the continued commission of computer sabotage, or
3. through the offense jeopardizes the populations supply with vital goods or services or the national security of the Federal Republic of Germany.
(5) §202c shall apply mutatis mutandis to acts preparatory to an offense under subsection (1) above.
Also, by the globally recongnised definition of malware ("software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent"), MCAdmin was malware.
I'm not harassing anyone. I'm simply stating facts and took action based on the said facts.
Quote from Doridian »
1) I did not access the computer system. I accessed MCAdmin AT MOST and I did not even use that on this guy's server as far as I know.
2) It was not secret, any use of developer mode was announced in chat.
1) "A computer system": any piece of software and/or hardware which received input and produces output. You were gaining access to the MineCraft server instance as an admin. That's accessing a computer system.
2) Quote: "without the owner's informed consent". And secretly in that sentence meant "with a feature not known to the owner of the said computer system".
So Finewolf, explain how Steam is legal in your world of law when it automatically updates Team Fortress 2 without me clicking any button? That is identical to what MCAdmin did, it updated itself, it did not upload some magical payload to a users system which is what would make it malware.
So Finewolf, explain how Steam is legal in your world of law when it automatically updates Team Fortress 2 without me clicking any button? That is identical to what MCAdmin did, it updated itself, it did not upload some magical payload to a users system which is what would make it malware.
Did I once mentioned the auto-update system? That's NOT THE ISSUE!
The issue is that MCAdmin had the ability to give Doridian complete admin access over the instance of Minecraft running in conjunction with MCAdmin. It gave Doridian elevated access without the server admin knowledge or consent. (and to Doridian, letting him know after you've given yourself admin rights does not mean he knew).
Why are we talking about the auto-update system? The Steam auto-update system:
[*:1kf7r62q]Does not give itself admin rights over anything
[*:1kf7r62q]Is clearly indicated in the Steam Subscriber Agreement
[*:1kf7r62q]Can be turned off
[*:1kf7r62q]Was not used in a malicious intent
[*:1kf7r62q]Is not hidden from the user
So Finewolf, explain how Steam is legal in your world of law when it automatically updates Team Fortress 2 without me clicking any button? That is identical to what MCAdmin did, it updated itself, it did not upload some magical payload to a users system which is what would make it malware.
Did I once mentioned the auto-update system? That's NOT THE ISSUE!
The issue is that MCAdmin had the ability to give Doridian complete admin access over the instance of Minecraft running in conjunction with MCAdmin. It gave Doridian elevated access without the server admin knowledge or consent. (and to Doridian, letting him know after you've given yourself admin rights does not mean he knew).
Why are we talking about the auto-update system?
sigh.
The "data-processing unit" you referenced is the computer systemNOT the server software. What he did was give himself access to the server, the software, not the system, the hardware (well, software OS).
I did cite the laws in question multiple times... Let me cite them again...
German Criminal Code
§303a: Data tampering
(1) Whosoever unlawfully deletes, suppresses, renders unusable or alters data (§202a (2)) shall be liable to imprisonment of not more than two years or a fine.
MCAdmin rendered the server instance unusable for the admin banned by the global ban list. It was essentially cutting of control of software run by an operator from the operator itself through data manipulation.
(2) The attempt shall be punishable.
§303b: Computer sabotage
(1) Whosoever interferes with data processing operations which are of substantial importance to another by
1. committing an offence under §303a (1); or
2. entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another; or
That's the biggy here. On that note, Doridian did transmit data in the intention of causing damage to the server admin who banned him, as admitted himself on the OP of this thread.
3. destroying, damaging, rendering unusable, removing or altering a data processing system or a data carrier,
By banning the server op from his own server, Doridian rendered unusable the Minecraft server (aka data processsing system [yes, it processes data]).
shall be liable to imprisonment of not more than three years or a fine.
(2) If the data processing operation is of substantial importance for another's business, enterprise or a public authority, the penalty shall be imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine.
(3) The attempt shall be punishable.
(4) In especially serious cases under subsection (2) above the penalty shall be imprisonment from six months to ten years. An especially serious case typically occurs if the offender
1. causes major financial loss,
2. acts on a commercial basis or as a member of a gang whose purpose is the continued commission of computer sabotage, or
3. through the offense jeopardizes the populations supply with vital goods or services or the national security of the Federal Republic of Germany.
(5) §202c shall apply mutatis mutandis to acts preparatory to an offense under subsection (1) above.
Also, by the globally recongnised definition of malware ("software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent"), MCAdmin was malware.
I'm not harassing anyone. I'm simply stating facts and took action based on the said facts.
Quote from Doridian »
1) I did not access the computer system. I accessed MCAdmin AT MOST and I did not even use that on this guy's server as far as I know.
2) It was not secret, any use of developer mode was announced in chat.
1) "A computer system": any piece of software and/or hardware which received input and produces output. You were gaining access to the MineCraft server instance as an admin. That's accessing a computer system.
2) Quote: "without the owner's informed consent". And secretly in that sentence meant "with a feature not known to the owner of the said computer system".
Doridian never rendered the computer, operating system or Minecraft unusable, only his own intellectual property.
Ever heard the phrase "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
Also, the global ban system was disclosed and didn't render the program unusable as you can turn the feature off.
Doridian never rendered the computer, operating system or Minecraft unusable, only his own intellectual property.
Ever heard the phrase "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
Also, the global ban system was disclosed and didn't render the program unusable as you can turn the feature off.
Sorry, it does not work like that. "Intellectual property" shenanigans aside, it was a thing someone was running on their own computer, and Doridian went and accessed the guy's computer and interfered with its operation.
The fact that there was a way around the global ban is entirely irrelevant, it might have provided a way to migitate the damage but that does not legitimise the interference in the first place. Sure, the global ban list is an advertised feature or whatever, but going on someone's else's server and kicking their users and the server owner goes somewhat beyond what someone subscribing to a global ban list agrees to.
The fact that he was using a backdoor in his own software is entirely irrelevant as well. He had given it to someone else to run on their system, that does not mean he suddenly owns the other guy's machine or part of it.
Dori never accessed his computer, get your facts straight.
Dori never accessed his computer, get your facts straight.
He logged on the smp server running on the guy's computer, and then did stuff like kicking people from the smp server running on the guy's computer. The minecraft server was running on the guy's computer. Doridian went and interfered with it.
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
I did never kick people. His server merely fetched the global banlist BY ITSELF and kicked the people out.
I accessed his server like any other player did. I did not elevate my privileges (aka enabled devmode).
Dori never accessed his computer, get your facts straight.
He logged on the smp server running on the guy's computer, and then did stuff like kicking people from the smp server running on the guy's computer. The minecraft server was running on the guy's computer. Doridian went and interfered with it.
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
It was a public server, and he banned them using the global ban function which requires no access to the server he was on. Get your facts straight.
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
He built functions into the server, let's say for argument sake that function is called "remote_action" (forgive my terrible pseudo code):
function remote_action($action, $user){
if($action == "ban")
{
ban($user);
}
he doesn't have to have implicit control over the server process, he built functions into it that allow him to do it remotely.
Dori never accessed his computer, get your facts straight.
He logged on the smp server running on the guy's computer, and then did stuff like kicking people from the smp server running on the guy's computer. The minecraft server was running on the guy's computer. Doridian went and interfered with it.
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
It was a public server, and he banned them using the global ban function which requires no access to the server he was on. Get your facts straight.
aka "entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another;"
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
He built functions into the server, let's say for argument sake that function is called "remote_action" (forgive my terrible pseudo code):
function remote_action($action, $user){
if($action == "ban")
{
ban($user);
}
he doesn't have to have implicit control over the server process, he built functions into it that allow him to do it remotely.
Regardless of if the attacker connects to the victim's computer or the victim's computer connecting to the attacker's server (this is how most botnet works), it's still gaining control.
aka "entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another;"
Thanks, got my facts straight.
The server asked for the global banlist by itself. I did not actively transmit data to his system. My system merely answered a request of his instance of MCAdmin.
A request which he could have turned off long before. But he agreed to my banning policies by not turning the feature off.
He logged on the smp server running on the guy's computer, and then did stuff like kicking people from the smp server running on the guy's computer. The minecraft server was running on the guy's computer. Doridian went and interfered with it.
I am not sure how many more times this has to be repeated. If you have figured out a way to log onto someone's game server without accessing the computer the server runs on, you must be telepathic or something.
It was a public server, and he banned them using the global ban function which requires no access to the server he was on. Get your facts straight.
aka "entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another;"
Thanks, got my facts straight.
What damage? And i wasn't talking to you unless you were samefagging on that account.
You break the law, there are consequences. Too many kids aren't taught that these days.
This is a rather limp 'slap on the wrist' response. You're showing that such things are tolerated, giving way for similar actions in the future. Punishment isn't just for 'punishment's sake' - it's because justice is necessary for a community to function. Maybe you think banning is too harsh, but you'd better respond somehow.
Swinger clearly stated why no action was taken, perhaps you should read it again.
Doridian was a fool with what he did -- as he has accepted -- but what he did is in no way illegal. There's a difference between being able to upload malicious code and actually doing it. Steam have the ability to push malicious code to my computer, as do many other companies and it's totally legal because they DON'T. I'd love to see proof that you contacted the police/fbi/government because you're going to be laughed at.
Doridian broke no laws, if he did, why can't you cite them? Doridian was an idiot through misguided ideals, he did not break the law.
Regarding action we're "taking": What Doridian did was moronic but not illegal. While we don't condone distribution of such software -- if you find any report it to us -- we will strive to remove said software, we won't encourage this ******** personal harassment. This should have ended when the original threads were locked, nobody should still be arguing about this.
To quote Wikipedia:
Malware (also: scumware), short for malicious software, is software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent.
Was it Malware, YES.
Was some users here harsh and attacked Doridian about things unrelated to the MCAdmin fiasco, YES.
Downloading software and installing it is implied consent, your argument would never stand up in a legal setting.
1) I did not access the computer system. I accessed MCAdmin AT MOST and I did not even use that on this guy's server as far as I know.
2) It was not secret, any use of developer mode was announced in chat.
I did cite the laws in question multiple times... Let me cite them again...
MCAdmin rendered the server instance unusable for the admin banned by the global ban list. It was essentially cutting of control of software run by an operator from the operator itself through data manipulation.
That's the biggy here. On that note, Doridian did transmit data in the intention of causing damage to the server admin who banned him, as admitted himself on the OP of this thread.
By banning the server op from his own server, Doridian rendered unusable the Minecraft server (aka data processsing system [yes, it processes data]).
Source
Also, by the globally recongnised definition of malware ("software designed to secretly access a computer system without the owner's informed consent"), MCAdmin was malware.
I'm not harassing anyone. I'm simply stating facts and took action based on the said facts.
1) "A computer system": any piece of software and/or hardware which received input and produces output. You were gaining access to the MineCraft server instance as an admin. That's accessing a computer system.
2) Quote: "without the owner's informed consent". And secretly in that sentence meant "with a feature not known to the owner of the said computer system".
Did I once mentioned the auto-update system? That's NOT THE ISSUE!
The issue is that MCAdmin had the ability to give Doridian complete admin access over the instance of Minecraft running in conjunction with MCAdmin. It gave Doridian elevated access without the server admin knowledge or consent. (and to Doridian, letting him know after you've given yourself admin rights does not mean he knew).
Why are we talking about the auto-update system? The Steam auto-update system:
[*:1kf7r62q]Does not give itself admin rights over anything
[*:1kf7r62q]Is clearly indicated in the Steam Subscriber Agreement
[*:1kf7r62q]Can be turned off
[*:1kf7r62q]Was not used in a malicious intent
[*:1kf7r62q]Is not hidden from the user
sigh.
The "data-processing unit" you referenced is the computer system NOT the server software. What he did was give himself access to the server, the software, not the system, the hardware (well, software OS).
So no, he did not break the law.
Doridian never rendered the computer, operating system or Minecraft unusable, only his own intellectual property.
Ever heard the phrase "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?
Also, the global ban system was disclosed and didn't render the program unusable as you can turn the feature off.
Dori never accessed his computer, get your facts straight.
I did never kick people. His server merely fetched the global banlist BY ITSELF and kicked the people out.
I accessed his server like any other player did. I did not elevate my privileges (aka enabled devmode).
It was a public server, and he banned them using the global ban function which requires no access to the server he was on. Get your facts straight.
He built functions into the server, let's say for argument sake that function is called "remote_action" (forgive my terrible pseudo code):
he doesn't have to have implicit control over the server process, he built functions into it that allow him to do it remotely.
aka "entering or transmitting data (§202a (2)) with the intention of causing damage to another;"
Thanks, got my facts straight.
Regardless of if the attacker connects to the victim's computer or the victim's computer connecting to the attacker's server (this is how most botnet works), it's still gaining control.
The server asked for the global banlist by itself. I did not actively transmit data to his system. My system merely answered a request of his instance of MCAdmin.
A request which he could have turned off long before. But he agreed to my banning policies by not turning the feature off.
What damage? And i wasn't talking to you unless you were samefagging on that account.