I think raiders are people who are gaining from their attacks. They are gaining your resources, are they not?
In my opinion, an SMP griefer will be one who hacks in destructive things, such as lava, TNT, and adminium, with the sole purpose of making the game unplayable. If this is what they are, they are not a key part of SMP, but more like a broken link.
I find it obvious that you don't get the point of the original post. The author states that there are people who "don't care": so they don't care whether they are "gaining your resources" or not. Raiding, therefore, is part of players who care and not of players who don't care.
Hacks can increase fun for players of type two. "Making the game unplayable" is not true. Hacking and destroying is "fun" for that group of players.
I think they áre actually part of SMP. It makes the dynamics of the world increase exponentially; the more players of 2nd type, the more variance exists, the less predictable the world is, for players of type one.
I get the point of the original post, but if they didn't care, why would they pay, and why would they play?
I think that if raiders would go to the trouble of breaking down your door, stealing everything you have and using it, they must care in some way.
I was on a server that a person decided to come on and hack. He leveled everything with a few hundred TNT, blocked our access tunnel with adminium, and filled it with lava. That sort of made the game a bit unplayable, as there is no way to remove adminium.
Wait so who wins Dummy991's take on SMP? The guy that runs through the server blowing everyone's houses up with TnT in a few minutes, or the guy that has himself buried at the bottom of the map in a 2x1 coffin where nobody will find him and he won't be killed?
I mean, neither of those things sound fun to me, I like building things, mining, and stuff like that when I play minecraft.
Not sure about you guys.
As for griefers being a challenging foe but not unstoppable, no. You are flat out wrong.
There is only ONE way to make it almost impossible to destroy your entire map. That's by having a custom wrapper with a whitelist, and at that point you no longer have a public server.
Some buddies can come into your server with names too long for you to even type out, with enough TnT to destroy everything on your map in minutes.
You could also hide all your creations where nobody can see them, but again, what's the point of playing multiplayer?
I seriously don't know what you're going for with this topic. I think you're confusing "the point of SMP" with "Your delusional take on how everyone should play Minecraft"
Wait so who wins Dummy991's take on SMP? The guy that runs through the server blowing everyone's houses up with TnT in a few minutes, or the guy that has himself buried at the bottom of the map in a 2x1 coffin where nobody will find him and he won't be killed?
I mean, neither of those things sound fun to me, I like building things, mining, and stuff like that when I play minecraft.
Not sure about you guys.
As for griefers being a challenging foe but not unstoppable, no. You are flat out wrong.
There is only ONE way to make it almost impossible to destroy your entire map. That's by having a custom wrapper with a whitelist, and at that point you no longer have a public server.
Some buddies can come into your server with names too long for you to even type out, with enough TnT to destroy everything on your map in minutes.
You could also hide all your creations where nobody can see them, but again, what's the point of playing multiplayer?
I seriously don't know what you're going for with this topic. I think you're confusing "the point of SMP" with "Your delusional take on how everyone should play Minecraft"
Rhyno, I have made a constant point that the point of SMP is not hiding in a hole or blowing everyone's houses up. I said that survival is the point of Survival mode. Not sure how that's hard to understand. My argument is that griefers make Survival mode more interesting and meaningful because of the extra challenge they provide. Please note, I support SMP being a fun and challenging experience. The simple existance of griefers does not make it impossible to make a base. Griefers simply offer more challenge. If you are talking about hackers, that's a different subject and do not pertain to this thread.
Survival is the BASIC point yes, but Most all people will want to go beyond that and build towns, cities, fortresses, dungeons, mines... All while cooperating with other people. And in doing so might become enemies of a different group, then war starts. Its more than Survival, It's just called that to separate it from creative.
The simple existance of griefers does not make it impossible to make a base.
No, it just makes it impossible to keep a base for more than half a minute.
Seriously, I've seen a group of 3-4 griefers tear down an entire base in thirty seconds. For no reason, except that they enjoyed making the builder angry.
Dummy, when you play singleplayer survival, do you just hole yourself up in a little cave and sit around trying to fight off the spiders? I doubt that there are that many people who do that. People that play survival want a fun experience where they can feel reward for the stuff they built and just make a cool game world while fighting off the occasional mob. I know that I don't want to be playing a multiplayer game against people who are all out to wreck my stuff, and I'm sure there are people that'll take my position. I want to be able to mine with some people and work together to engineer an awesome castle and giant town. I don't want players coming in and destroying it for their own amusement. There are plenty of situation that huge pvp wars would be cool, but not in every server, infinite TNT + lava or not.
I know that I don't want to be playing a multiplayer game against people who are all out to wreck my stuff
I do! I just want a reasonable chance to beat them at their own game, if I've prepared for it. A griefer has nothing to lose. Even killing them isn't beating them.
You claim the point of SMP is survival.
The most effective way to survive is to bury yourself in a hole.
What is confusing about that?
You can't claim that the point of SMP is survival but the best method of survival isn't.
Once again: The point of SMP is not merely survival, survival is just a name to designate the gametype.
Do you know why there are difficulty options in Single Player Survival? Because different people want different levels of challenge in surviving.
The excitement of surviving is equal to the amount of challenge you desire.
What is the most effective way is not the fun way. True. But that does not change the point of this game mode.
Survival mode is about surviving. True, but it's also about HOW you survive. Take real life for instance, it is about survival, someone could lock themselves up in a bunker with a replenishable food supply and live their entire lives like that (Similar to this whole 2x2x1 hole thing). But since life and Survival mode are also about HOW you survive, people can choose to harvest 64+ arrows and go around through the night on Hard difficulty shooting everything in sight and fending off the hoard of mobs off with his last remaining arrows and a wooden sword. You have the freedom to choose HOW you survive, and a more challenging route to survival would be more fun, which you can choose. It's up to the player how they choose to survive. Not the griefers or the mobs.
The fun is choosing HOW you survive not just surviving, it's up to you what to make of it.
Survival mode is about surviving. True, but it's also about HOW you survive.
You're exactly right! And thanks to griefers, the HOW becomes very limited. You can't build anything up. You have to stay hidden all the time. Griefers just destroy stuff because it's THERE. If you allow griefers free reign, then the little 1x1x2 hidey-hole is going to be the only way to survive. A tiny little bunker at the bottom of the map. Sitting there while the server lags into unplayability because everything flammable has been set on fire.
Stuff takes a while to build in SMP, but it can be destroyed very quickly. This imbalance means that griefers will have an insurmountable advantage.
Let me ask you this. How do you defend against someone who logs into the server, sets fire to the trees around your base, and starts tearing apart your wall? Who, whenever you kill him, just grabs some wood and stone near the spawn, makes a new pic, and runs back to start it again? How do you build a base when every third person who logs in does this? And remember, building a little hidey-hole deep underground is the outcome we're trying to avoid.
I would like to know if this is really an argument. Is there anyone here that thinks people who hack in TNT and Flint/Steel are a good thing?
So far, the argument I have seen is as follows:
A: "I don't like people who hack in objects to ruin my fun. They are griefers."
B: "Hey, I like ruining peoples' fun! I should be allowed to play. But hackers, they suck."
C: "But what about people who hack stuff in? I hate those hacking griefers!"
D: "Griefers are a part of SMP! Hackers suck!"
Basically, there is a consensus against people who hack in materials to destroy your stuff with no effort. One side is calling them griefers, the other is arguing over the name but still agree that hacking sucks.
Is there anyone here that thinks people who hack in TNT and Flint/Steel are a good thing?
It's been made clear that most of the people in this thread are against hackers. But not all griefers are hackers. Like I've said above, 3-4 guys with easily made stone tools can grief pretty effectively.
I know that I don't want to be playing a multiplayer game against people who are all out to wreck my stuff
I do! I just want a reasonable chance to beat them at their own game, if I've prepared for it. A griefer has nothing to lose. Even killing them isn't beating them.
I can agree with this. There's definitely room for people to go around and mercilessly beat others silly... as long as everyone's up for that. It's the same way how there's room to have warring factions building up giant castles and cities to fight and raid each other with, or how there's room to have just one big team that's building up their awesome city of awesomeness. But when you have lone wolves going in and destroying stuff in those other scenarios, not even through hacking, it's suddenly a lot less awesome.
Survival mode is about surviving. True, but it's also about HOW you survive.
You're exactly right! And thanks to griefers, the HOW becomes very limited. You can't build anything up. You have to stay hidden all the time. Griefers just destroy stuff because it's THERE. If you allow griefers free reign, then the little 1x1x2 hidey-hole is going to be the only way to survive. A tiny little bunker at the bottom of the map. Sitting there while the server lags into unplayability because everything flammable has been set on fire.
Stuff takes a while to build in SMP, but it can be destroyed very quickly. This imbalance means that griefers will have an insurmountable advantage.
Let me ask you this. How do you defend against someone who logs into the server, sets fire to the trees around your base, and starts tearing apart your wall? Who, whenever you kill him, just grabs some wood and stone near the spawn, makes a new pic, and runs back to start it again? How do you build a base when every third person who logs in does this? And remember, building a little hidey-hole deep underground is the outcome we're trying to avoid.
Neil, how many griefers do you think there are? You're making it sound like they make up 90% of the player base the way you are describing them as such a large unstoppable force. They are not. Though they are persistent, they are not gods.
You realize there isn't just YOU and the griefers, there are like-minded players who actually care to build. Uniting against griefers, stopping forest fires and such can be easily accomplished. As I've said HOW you survive is very important concerning your enjoyment of Survival mode. Sure you can go with making a small bunker deep underground, but another way that's funner and more cooperative would be to ally with other people on the server.
It would be as easy as saying, "Let's make a city." Or something of the sort, if griefing is going to be as big as a problem as you think, you will have a large amount of people that will be ready to rise up against them.
See how that encourages teamwork when there is a force to assemble against?
In the 1930s, most of the world was struggling with some pretty tough ****. They had this thing going on, not sure if you've heard about it, it was the Great Depression. The causes are still debated hotly by historians, but all you really need to know is that everyone was dirt poor and could not afford to live.
New governments are elected all over the world promising to fix the Great Depression, but most countries were barely making progress. They were stuck in a hole, and digging deeper didn't seem to help.
Then along came World War II. Suddenly, with enemies for nations to unite against, their economies sprung back to life! Put in layman's terms, the war put food on the tables of families across the globe.
TL;DR: Using your argument, Hitler was a cool guy who just wanted to fix the world's economy. His actions are justified because of what they happened to cause!
In the 1930s, most of the world was struggling with some pretty tough ****. They had this thing going on, not sure if you've heard about it, it was the Great Depression. The causes are still debated hotly by historians, but all you really need to know is that everyone was dirt poor and could not afford to live.
New governments are elected all over the world promising to fix the Great Depression, but most countries were barely making progress. They were stuck in a hole, and digging deeper didn't seem to help.
Then along came World War II. Suddenly, with enemies for nations to unite against, their economies sprung back to life! Basically, WWII led to recovery from the Great Depression.
TL;DR: Using your argument, Hitler was a cool guy who just wanted to fix the world's economy.
I never said griefers are COOL. All I said that griefers give a large challenge, and that challenge can promote teamwork.
Please stop arguing against my proposition if you can't understand it. If you can't argue against this without trying to take a shot below the belt then please just leave this thread.
TL;DR: Using your argument, Hitler was a cool guy who just wanted to fix the world's economy.
I think you're stretching it a bit, there. A lot, actually.
Maybe griefers will encourage teamwork. But do you know what else encourages teamwork? Another team to fight against. You can't retaliate against griefers because they don't build anything to attack.
What if Notch put in a mob that could eat right through any material, home in on your exact location, and every time you killed it another one would spawn just outside your base? You wouldn't be able to do anything except fight that mob. Griefers are similar.
And let me say it once again, attacking people is not griefing! I do want the challenge of fighting other players. That will be fun. But there's nothing you can do about a guy who just logs on to randomly destroy stuff. There's no reward for killing him. There's no way to stop him because he doesn't have any goal in mind except destruction. There's just constant frustration until he gets bored.
I never said griefers are COOL. All I said that griefers give a large challenge, and that challenge can promote teamwork.
Please stop arguing against my proposition if you can't understand it. If you can't argue against this without trying to take a shot below the belt then please just leave this thread.
I understand your point just fine. You're argument is as follows:
"Griefers should be tolerated because they provide a challenge that can improve the quality of the game."
Or, by simplifiying it:
"The ends justify the means."
I disagree. There are plenty of ways to add challenge and promote teamwork that are not griefers.
By the way, a "shot below the belt" was implying that I couldn't understand your point. Where is my shot for you?
Quote from NeilBlack »
I think you're stretching it a bit, there. A lot, actually.
Sorry, I like hyperbole. Even if my argument was not disimilar to a slippery slope falicy, it works.
Ok. So griefers add a level of challenge. I get that. But when they come in and act like a god and blow up everything all you can do is kick/ban them. If you have to hide and keep things secret why even bother play SMP?
I understand your point just fine. You're argument is as follows:
"Griefers should be tolerated because they provide a challenge that can improve the quality of the game."
Or, by simplifiying it:
"The ends justify the means."
You're over-simplifying. Actually, I don't get "the ends justify the mean" from his argument at all. He isn't talking about ends and means, he's making the claim that griefers are a legitimate challenge. I think he may have a valid point about you not understanding his argument.
Ok. So griefers add a level of challenge. I get that. But when they come in and act like a god and blow up everything all you can do is kick/ban them. If you have to hide and keep things secret why even bother play SMP?
If they're really just adding a level of challenge, and not causing rampant destruction just because they can, I wouldn't really call them griefers.
I get the point of the original post, but if they didn't care, why would they pay, and why would they play?
I think that if raiders would go to the trouble of breaking down your door, stealing everything you have and using it, they must care in some way.
I was on a server that a person decided to come on and hack. He leveled everything with a few hundred TNT, blocked our access tunnel with adminium, and filled it with lava. That sort of made the game a bit unplayable, as there is no way to remove adminium.
I mean, neither of those things sound fun to me, I like building things, mining, and stuff like that when I play minecraft.
Not sure about you guys.
As for griefers being a challenging foe but not unstoppable, no. You are flat out wrong.
There is only ONE way to make it almost impossible to destroy your entire map. That's by having a custom wrapper with a whitelist, and at that point you no longer have a public server.
Some buddies can come into your server with names too long for you to even type out, with enough TnT to destroy everything on your map in minutes.
You could also hide all your creations where nobody can see them, but again, what's the point of playing multiplayer?
I seriously don't know what you're going for with this topic. I think you're confusing "the point of SMP" with "Your delusional take on how everyone should play Minecraft"
Rhyno, I have made a constant point that the point of SMP is not hiding in a hole or blowing everyone's houses up. I said that survival is the point of Survival mode. Not sure how that's hard to understand. My argument is that griefers make Survival mode more interesting and meaningful because of the extra challenge they provide. Please note, I support SMP being a fun and challenging experience. The simple existance of griefers does not make it impossible to make a base. Griefers simply offer more challenge. If you are talking about hackers, that's a different subject and do not pertain to this thread.
You claim the point of SMP is survival.
The most effective way to survive is to bury yourself in a hole.
What is confusing about that?
You can't claim that the point of SMP is survival but the best method of survival isn't.
Once again: The point of SMP is not merely survival, survival is just a name to designate the gametype.
No, it just makes it impossible to keep a base for more than half a minute.
Seriously, I've seen a group of 3-4 griefers tear down an entire base in thirty seconds. For no reason, except that they enjoyed making the builder angry.
I do! I just want a reasonable chance to beat them at their own game, if I've prepared for it. A griefer has nothing to lose. Even killing them isn't beating them.
Do you know why there are difficulty options in Single Player Survival? Because different people want different levels of challenge in surviving.
The excitement of surviving is equal to the amount of challenge you desire.
What is the most effective way is not the fun way. True. But that does not change the point of this game mode.
Survival mode is about surviving. True, but it's also about HOW you survive. Take real life for instance, it is about survival, someone could lock themselves up in a bunker with a replenishable food supply and live their entire lives like that (Similar to this whole 2x2x1 hole thing). But since life and Survival mode are also about HOW you survive, people can choose to harvest 64+ arrows and go around through the night on Hard difficulty shooting everything in sight and fending off the hoard of mobs off with his last remaining arrows and a wooden sword. You have the freedom to choose HOW you survive, and a more challenging route to survival would be more fun, which you can choose. It's up to the player how they choose to survive. Not the griefers or the mobs.
The fun is choosing HOW you survive not just surviving, it's up to you what to make of it.
You're exactly right! And thanks to griefers, the HOW becomes very limited. You can't build anything up. You have to stay hidden all the time. Griefers just destroy stuff because it's THERE. If you allow griefers free reign, then the little 1x1x2 hidey-hole is going to be the only way to survive. A tiny little bunker at the bottom of the map. Sitting there while the server lags into unplayability because everything flammable has been set on fire.
Stuff takes a while to build in SMP, but it can be destroyed very quickly. This imbalance means that griefers will have an insurmountable advantage.
Let me ask you this. How do you defend against someone who logs into the server, sets fire to the trees around your base, and starts tearing apart your wall? Who, whenever you kill him, just grabs some wood and stone near the spawn, makes a new pic, and runs back to start it again? How do you build a base when every third person who logs in does this? And remember, building a little hidey-hole deep underground is the outcome we're trying to avoid.
I would like to know if this is really an argument. Is there anyone here that thinks people who hack in TNT and Flint/Steel are a good thing?
So far, the argument I have seen is as follows:
A: "I don't like people who hack in objects to ruin my fun. They are griefers."
B: "Hey, I like ruining peoples' fun! I should be allowed to play. But hackers, they suck."
C: "But what about people who hack stuff in? I hate those hacking griefers!"
D: "Griefers are a part of SMP! Hackers suck!"
Basically, there is a consensus against people who hack in materials to destroy your stuff with no effort. One side is calling them griefers, the other is arguing over the name but still agree that hacking sucks.
It's been made clear that most of the people in this thread are against hackers. But not all griefers are hackers. Like I've said above, 3-4 guys with easily made stone tools can grief pretty effectively.
Neil, how many griefers do you think there are? You're making it sound like they make up 90% of the player base the way you are describing them as such a large unstoppable force. They are not. Though they are persistent, they are not gods.
You realize there isn't just YOU and the griefers, there are like-minded players who actually care to build. Uniting against griefers, stopping forest fires and such can be easily accomplished. As I've said HOW you survive is very important concerning your enjoyment of Survival mode. Sure you can go with making a small bunker deep underground, but another way that's funner and more cooperative would be to ally with other people on the server.
It would be as easy as saying, "Let's make a city." Or something of the sort, if griefing is going to be as big as a problem as you think, you will have a large amount of people that will be ready to rise up against them.
See how that encourages teamwork when there is a force to assemble against?
H-hey! Anecdote time!
In the 1930s, most of the world was struggling with some pretty tough ****. They had this thing going on, not sure if you've heard about it, it was the Great Depression. The causes are still debated hotly by historians, but all you really need to know is that everyone was dirt poor and could not afford to live.
New governments are elected all over the world promising to fix the Great Depression, but most countries were barely making progress. They were stuck in a hole, and digging deeper didn't seem to help.
Then along came World War II. Suddenly, with enemies for nations to unite against, their economies sprung back to life! Put in layman's terms, the war put food on the tables of families across the globe.
TL;DR: Using your argument, Hitler was a cool guy who just wanted to fix the world's economy. His actions are justified because of what they happened to cause!
I never said griefers are COOL. All I said that griefers give a large challenge, and that challenge can promote teamwork.
Please stop arguing against my proposition if you can't understand it. If you can't argue against this without trying to take a shot below the belt then please just leave this thread.
I think you're stretching it a bit, there. A lot, actually.
Maybe griefers will encourage teamwork. But do you know what else encourages teamwork? Another team to fight against. You can't retaliate against griefers because they don't build anything to attack.
What if Notch put in a mob that could eat right through any material, home in on your exact location, and every time you killed it another one would spawn just outside your base? You wouldn't be able to do anything except fight that mob. Griefers are similar.
And let me say it once again, attacking people is not griefing! I do want the challenge of fighting other players. That will be fun. But there's nothing you can do about a guy who just logs on to randomly destroy stuff. There's no reward for killing him. There's no way to stop him because he doesn't have any goal in mind except destruction. There's just constant frustration until he gets bored.
"Griefers should be tolerated because they provide a challenge that can improve the quality of the game."
Or, by simplifiying it:
"The ends justify the means."
I disagree. There are plenty of ways to add challenge and promote teamwork that are not griefers.
By the way, a "shot below the belt" was implying that I couldn't understand your point. Where is my shot for you?
Sorry, I like hyperbole. Even if my argument was not disimilar to a slippery slope falicy, it works.
[simg]http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4148/mysigv2.png[/simg]
You're over-simplifying. Actually, I don't get "the ends justify the mean" from his argument at all. He isn't talking about ends and means, he's making the claim that griefers are a legitimate challenge. I think he may have a valid point about you not understanding his argument.
If they're really just adding a level of challenge, and not causing rampant destruction just because they can, I wouldn't really call them griefers.