I hope the eventual point of survival enhances the function aspect of building design so you will see various builds above and below ground instead of people just designing stuff for what they feel looks good. A good design with a purpose trumps creative buildings for me anyways.
The problem with this thread is that the creator forgets infiniminer.
That game had a strict goal, and people ignored it and just built stuff. Because building stuff was more fun, because building stuff was more creative.
Survival just means you build stuff in a more hostile world, you don't have to build stuff because the world is hostile enough to kill you pretty quick but i mean think about it.
After you survive for a while you sort of run out of goals don't you? Then your goals shift to building a frigging awesome base! You can't just get better pickaxes forever mate.
Greifers are different than mobs, creatures just destroy stuff then die, greifers are different they can insult you, make the game unplayable, and they just laugh and mock you. Now as mature players we should take this abuse but theirs a difference between getting angry at stupid things and getting frustrated when someone destroys your hard earned base (not castle per say even a cobblestone hovel) for the 4th time. Then they crash the server. Then if you tell them to back off they wish cancer upon you (this actually happened to me). its one thing to be an annoying mob, its another thing to have a mob insult you and repeatedly annoy you no matter where you go. Greifers arean't mobs, they're a plague
I'm curious, Dummy991. What do YOU do in Single player Survival?
If you're anything like my friends and I, you probably mine, create weapons and build forts capable of lasting the night.
Some people just build little huts to store things. Other people (like me) like to use all the resources they've found to build giant castles or mansions.
In Single Player, you have two modes: Day time, when it's pretty safe to go out and mine resources, and Night time, when you have to fight off mobs or hide inside until daylight.
It kinda gives you an objective, build a base and get enough resources to last until the next sunrise.
Now, how does this gameplay translate into a multiplayer setting? Multiple players doing whatever they feel is needed; gather resources, build forts, whatever. You'll eventually have the NPC mobs try to attack you and your friends during the night. But they will only exist at night.
Griefers, players whose only interest is pissing other players off, have no such timer. They are there until their targets leave angrily or they bore of pissing players off. The angrier someone gets, the more fun they have. It's not survival here, it's try to not get pissed off when someone is trying to do just that.
It's different with mobs; their one and only goal is to kill you. That's what they're programmed to do. Creepers sometimes take your forts with them, but still, you get upset at yourself for letting the creeper blow up so close to your base.
The only defense against someone who is trying to **** you off is to beat them at their own game: ban them. They don't care how many times you kill them, how many times you rebuild your wall and their goal is to have you give up or angrily sign off the server. It's typically not your fault they're griefing you, they're doing it for their own personal laughs, nothing more.
And I don't know about you, but that is not fun to me. It's not a challenge, like a player raiding your supplies. It's just aggravating, upsetting and basically ruins the fun of the game. I simply cannot see how you think a griefer could be considered "a challenge."
SSP has nothing to do with this anyway, and it's not your fault that the creeper is griefing you either. Because that's what a creeper is doing. Griefing.
TL;DR: Mobs attack you in game, griefers try to attack your emotions. One is fun, the other is not.
However, they both only attack you in game, and they are both pretty useless.
You can ALWAYS prevent a creeper: More lighting, better fortress and avoid line of sight.
You can NOT prevent a griefer. You have to a) Know they're a griefer, :cool.gif: See them grief and c) Be able to ban them BEFORE they grief, which unless you're a precog, you cannot do unless you know A or B. And if it's B, it's too late, the damage is likely done.
Congratulations, Tokidoki, you've done nothing but prove that you've found a way to make yourself superior to all of the rest of the players here. I bow to your impressive strategy of "take a post and say they're stupid, that'll show them!"
Anyway:
Griefers are players just as much as I, someone who doesn't grief unless it's with friends and we're just screwing around anyway, am. If you don't want them in your server, you simply disallow them by making it private, banning them, etc. This is why it's a good thing the server software is readily available. Don't like how another server is run? Start your own! Or, if you can't do that, get a buddy to start one. Or, if all else fails, search for a server more suited to your playing style.
If you happen to join MY server, however, don't be surprised if you find your traps disassembled, your wall with a huge hole in it, and all of your chests looted for the most valuable things you have (also I'm taking your jukebox and records because I want them :<). No, I won't raze your buildings to the ground, and I won't attack you every time you happen to just finish building up, but eventually I will challenge you by trying to take your stuff and put it to my own uses.
I'm not so low that I'd do it when you weren't there, however. That's just wrong.
On any server I run, this is how I'd expect everyone to act. Your server? Sure, we can all be happy happy joy joy and build things together.
Not sure why people can't allow both types of players to coexist (albeit on their separate servers) and deal with griefers as you see fit (and as the situation calls). There is nobody who can dictate how the game is "meant" to be played except Notch. Nobody is missing the point of anything.
(To clarify my own, personal definition of what I'd consider griefing: Spawn camping, harassing a player's constructions for extended periods of time with no express purpose, lighting entire forests on fire for no reason other than to lag the server (if they do it to burn down a house on the other side because the two of them are at war, then I could probably forgive it a bit), repeatedly hunting down a specific player to kill them whether there's anything to gain or not, and, last but not least, verbally harassing players for any reason (taunting is not included here, as long as it doesn't get out of hand).
Clearly if you don't know jack about real life, I can't trust you with anything else either. In addition to that, you completely missed the entire mother ****ing point. Good day, sir, you've wasted enough of my time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Cliff Racer »
If a creeper walked in to my house, I'd either be cowering in a corner or unzipping my trousers.
Most people are over estimating griefers by a lot if you kill a griefer they just run back at you.... but before they do they need to get wood make a crafting station, make sticks, make a wooden pickaxe, get stone, make a stone pickaxe, relocate your base, Grief for 10 seconds destroying 7 blocks, get killed, sent back to spawn and repeat this whole process again.
And another thing if you log off a server you should expect for your stuff to be broken since it was only you and no one else is there to protect it. Now if you where in a community of like 10 people when you log off they protect the city if you see what I mean survival with other people is useful and fun while survival by yourself is lonely and depressing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Neodymius »
I wouldn't call us an "evil" clan, all we want to do is butcher people for fun.
Neodymius on The Gentleman's Society of Wanton Massacre
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... ingFunGuys
Remember, there are many ways to play.
But, the two sides are in the same servers along with griefers which just makes this whole thing like a room filled with cats...
Before any conclusion can be drawn about this subject, three things need to happen in SMP.
1.) [This is the biggest thing] HACKING NEEDS TO BE UNDER CONTROL. It's simply unfair and useless when someone comes into a server invisible and starts pouring lava on everything, there's simply no way to counter that.
2.) We need to be able to fight back against griefers, that is, cause them physical harm.
3.) The Item system needs to be fixed so that you can keep your items after you log off.
Until Notch gets around to these things, EVERY ARGUMENT ON THIS TOPIC IS USELESS.
This objective is currently easier for some to attain than it is for others. Ultimately, the griefers have an easier time of it, and need the builders. Inversely, the builders have a harder time of it, and don't need the griefers. Regardless of what the game mode is called, plenty of builders seem to be having fun playing "creative with tools" and could do entirely without griefers as an "added challenge." In fact, telling them that griefers add a challenge is like offering them a mealy, worm-eaten apple and proffering that it has extra protein.
The "win" scenarios for both groups are attainable. For builders, it is to build something cool, and implicitly, to not have said cool thing undone with a minute fraction of the effort with which it was built. For griefers, it is to destroy someone else's stuff, and possibly, depending upon their particular pathology, to force others to ragequit or ban them out of frustration.
The "lose" scenarios, on the other hand, tilt in the griefer's favor. For builders, the lose scenario is to have all your stuff destroyed. Which is currently pretty easy, even without hacking, provided another player possesses the recipe for a stone pick and the proper degree of malice. The penalty of loss for the builder is to have to go back over old work, the prospect of constant toil and vigilance defending their digital sandcastles from being lapped up by unremitting waves of e-barbarians. For griefers, the lose scenario is, I guess, to be banned. But then the griefer hops to a different server of unsuspecting rubes to grief, his or her time drinking from the firehose of fun barely interrupted. The only real loss imaginable for a griefer would be a builder whose apathy towards his or her own creations not only mirrors the griefer's, but is so palpably felt across the cold gulf of the Minecraft chat interface that it forces the griefer into a Nietzschean confrontation with their own nihilistic soul, only to cry bitter, empty tears:
...unlikely.
What is more likely, given the current unbalance and the propensity of both parties to seek uninterrupted fun (the "point" of SMP, and any game,) is for the builders to withdraw, in whatever way, until more amenable conditions arise.
We can speculate what these conditions are. I'm personally unconvinced that PvP alone will do it. Right now, griefers vs. builders is a game of steal the bacon, except the guy with the bacon can't guard the bacon, he can just make more bacon to be stolen. For the griefer/builder minigame to be balanced, the builder needs more defensive tools (i.e. traps, durability enhancements, territory claims, whatever,) and the offensive tools for the griefer must require more time investment (i.e. TNT is more efficient than stone picks, yet TNT is a bit more involved to manufacture than creeper dust and sand.) But for now, we are nibbling at the tender shoots of an undeveloped game and trying to guess how its fruit will one day taste.
Losing is fun if you go out fighting. Also if someone ****s up your base, **** up theirs or hunt them down otherwise. Then start rebuilding. Land claim flags will probably allow you to defend your grounds easily enough if you really just pick up the sword.
How do you ruin someones base when all they had was enough wood and stone to make picks and axes..maybe iron if they got lucky, and they went to town on your buildings? This is the problem with griefers they ruin your fun, they make you have less fun, and there is no way, at all, to 'get back' at them. The only thing you can do is leave yourself, or get the griefer banned.
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Quote from Rezdude »
PvP is like sex. When both parties are willing, it can be a very enjoyable experience. However, when one party is not, it is bound to ruin someone's day.
Losing is fun if you go out fighting. Also if someone ****s up your base, **** up theirs or hunt them down otherwise. Then start rebuilding. Land claim flags will probably allow you to defend your grounds easily enough if you really just pick up the sword.
Hopefully land claim flags will be vunerable to TNT (Or some kind of other explosive that is harder to get?) so that we can wage cannon wars and not worry about griefer with tiny pickaxe.
And just so you know, if a griefer gets TNT manually, he becomes a player of the game and not just a random griefer. Unless its RP, in witch case he needs a base and some type of reason to attack.
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"Crude Stew, do you fear it AppleBloom? Sometimes life is not a cakewalk served up on a silver spoon."
That game had a strict goal, and people ignored it and just built stuff. Because building stuff was more fun, because building stuff was more creative.
Survival just means you build stuff in a more hostile world, you don't have to build stuff because the world is hostile enough to kill you pretty quick but i mean think about it.
After you survive for a while you sort of run out of goals don't you? Then your goals shift to building a frigging awesome base! You can't just get better pickaxes forever mate.
You can ALWAYS prevent a creeper: More lighting, better fortress and avoid line of sight.
You can NOT prevent a griefer. You have to a) Know they're a griefer, :cool.gif: See them grief and c) Be able to ban them BEFORE they grief, which unless you're a precog, you cannot do unless you know A or B. And if it's B, it's too late, the damage is likely done.
Anyway:
Griefers are players just as much as I, someone who doesn't grief unless it's with friends and we're just screwing around anyway, am. If you don't want them in your server, you simply disallow them by making it private, banning them, etc. This is why it's a good thing the server software is readily available. Don't like how another server is run? Start your own! Or, if you can't do that, get a buddy to start one. Or, if all else fails, search for a server more suited to your playing style.
If you happen to join MY server, however, don't be surprised if you find your traps disassembled, your wall with a huge hole in it, and all of your chests looted for the most valuable things you have (also I'm taking your jukebox and records because I want them :<). No, I won't raze your buildings to the ground, and I won't attack you every time you happen to just finish building up, but eventually I will challenge you by trying to take your stuff and put it to my own uses.
I'm not so low that I'd do it when you weren't there, however. That's just wrong.
On any server I run, this is how I'd expect everyone to act. Your server? Sure, we can all be happy happy joy joy and build things together.
Not sure why people can't allow both types of players to coexist (albeit on their separate servers) and deal with griefers as you see fit (and as the situation calls). There is nobody who can dictate how the game is "meant" to be played except Notch. Nobody is missing the point of anything.
(To clarify my own, personal definition of what I'd consider griefing: Spawn camping, harassing a player's constructions for extended periods of time with no express purpose, lighting entire forests on fire for no reason other than to lag the server (if they do it to burn down a house on the other side because the two of them are at war, then I could probably forgive it a bit), repeatedly hunting down a specific player to kill them whether there's anything to gain or not, and, last but not least, verbally harassing players for any reason (taunting is not included here, as long as it doesn't get out of hand).
there are no supernovas in Minecraft or IRL
Clearly if you don't know jack about real life, I can't trust you with anything else either. In addition to that, you completely missed the entire mother ****ing point. Good day, sir, you've wasted enough of my time.
And another thing if you log off a server you should expect for your stuff to be broken since it was only you and no one else is there to protect it. Now if you where in a community of like 10 people when you log off they protect the city if you see what I mean survival with other people is useful and fun while survival by yourself is lonely and depressing.
Neodymius on The Gentleman's Society of Wanton Massacre
Remember, there are many ways to play.
But, the two sides are in the same servers along with griefers which just makes this whole thing like a room filled with cats...
My Pathfinder Campaign for the denizens of MCF: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1939035-where-are-we-sandbox-pathfinder-campaign-ooc/
1.) [This is the biggest thing] HACKING NEEDS TO BE UNDER CONTROL. It's simply unfair and useless when someone comes into a server invisible and starts pouring lava on everything, there's simply no way to counter that.
2.) We need to be able to fight back against griefers, that is, cause them physical harm.
3.) The Item system needs to be fixed so that you can keep your items after you log off.
Until Notch gets around to these things, EVERY ARGUMENT ON THIS TOPIC IS USELESS.
This objective is currently easier for some to attain than it is for others. Ultimately, the griefers have an easier time of it, and need the builders. Inversely, the builders have a harder time of it, and don't need the griefers. Regardless of what the game mode is called, plenty of builders seem to be having fun playing "creative with tools" and could do entirely without griefers as an "added challenge." In fact, telling them that griefers add a challenge is like offering them a mealy, worm-eaten apple and proffering that it has extra protein.
The "win" scenarios for both groups are attainable. For builders, it is to build something cool, and implicitly, to not have said cool thing undone with a minute fraction of the effort with which it was built. For griefers, it is to destroy someone else's stuff, and possibly, depending upon their particular pathology, to force others to ragequit or ban them out of frustration.
The "lose" scenarios, on the other hand, tilt in the griefer's favor. For builders, the lose scenario is to have all your stuff destroyed. Which is currently pretty easy, even without hacking, provided another player possesses the recipe for a stone pick and the proper degree of malice. The penalty of loss for the builder is to have to go back over old work, the prospect of constant toil and vigilance defending their digital sandcastles from being lapped up by unremitting waves of e-barbarians. For griefers, the lose scenario is, I guess, to be banned. But then the griefer hops to a different server of unsuspecting rubes to grief, his or her time drinking from the firehose of fun barely interrupted. The only real loss imaginable for a griefer would be a builder whose apathy towards his or her own creations not only mirrors the griefer's, but is so palpably felt across the cold gulf of the Minecraft chat interface that it forces the griefer into a Nietzschean confrontation with their own nihilistic soul, only to cry bitter, empty tears:
...unlikely.
What is more likely, given the current unbalance and the propensity of both parties to seek uninterrupted fun (the "point" of SMP, and any game,) is for the builders to withdraw, in whatever way, until more amenable conditions arise.
We can speculate what these conditions are. I'm personally unconvinced that PvP alone will do it. Right now, griefers vs. builders is a game of steal the bacon, except the guy with the bacon can't guard the bacon, he can just make more bacon to be stolen. For the griefer/builder minigame to be balanced, the builder needs more defensive tools (i.e. traps, durability enhancements, territory claims, whatever,) and the offensive tools for the griefer must require more time investment (i.e. TNT is more efficient than stone picks, yet TNT is a bit more involved to manufacture than creeper dust and sand.) But for now, we are nibbling at the tender shoots of an undeveloped game and trying to guess how its fruit will one day taste.
How do you ruin someones base when all they had was enough wood and stone to make picks and axes..maybe iron if they got lucky, and they went to town on your buildings? This is the problem with griefers they ruin your fun, they make you have less fun, and there is no way, at all, to 'get back' at them. The only thing you can do is leave yourself, or get the griefer banned.
Hopefully land claim flags will be vunerable to TNT (Or some kind of other explosive that is harder to get?) so that we can wage cannon wars and not worry about griefer with tiny pickaxe.
And just so you know, if a griefer gets TNT manually, he becomes a player of the game and not just a random griefer. Unless its RP, in witch case he needs a base and some type of reason to attack.