Some people hate the idea of 'farming xp' - I don't fully understand why, because anyone who puts a couple of blocks between themselves and a few mobs is 'farming' - the rest is just a question of scale. But, I respect people who want to 'manually' kill everything.
I honestly prefer to get my xp through the tasks I already do. Breeding my cows, smelting my ores, killing mobs that attack me, etc. I don't really like the idea of easy xp. But I do always enjoy seeing what farms people can engineer.
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The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
thus, the very fact that these farms exist harms the enjoyment of every person that plays, whether they know the reason or not.
Won't ever cease to amaze me how people know so much better than myself how I should enjoy my game.
I don't know why Minecraft attracted so many psychotherapists. But I'm glad it did. We, the people who are wrong on how they enjoy this game, need help.
i'm okay with spawner and spider farms, in fact, i really just don't like iron golem, villager, enderman and blaze farms, and wither skeleton farms.
Any last vestige of consistency in your argumentation just died with this last statement.
It was a very large post, but I read it all. I just like to read. It however was nothing more than a very elaborate and ridiculous way of saying that people who build farms don't have any imagination and can't, among other things, invent and create their own MInecraft story. Or that in not doing so their game is somehow diminished.
I could tell you you are incredibly wrong. But I suspect it won't do any good. Your post reeks of ignorant stereotyping. You are beyond my healing powers.
I am indifferent to the farms, I do not use them but some of the people on my server do, it is honestly up to your playstyle.
That's pretty much what I think as well; I've never used them (aside from a simple dungeon-based manual-kill farm in my first main world; I've since mined Nether quartz to get XP to enchant my items initially) simply because I've never had the need to get loads of XP or mob drops, at least over the long-term; no point in building a fancy farm that I only use for a short time (I also think Looting is useless for general use for this reason); the way I play, I get the enchantments that I want when I start, then just repair my items from then on, with materials being a non-issue for the same reason, my playstyle (now, obviously, I am very much against the new repair system which prevents renaming from fixing the repair cost, never mind having the cost not depend on enchantments makes no sense; an armor/tools mod I use depends on the latter to help balance it out).
Of course, my solution to undesirable changes in the game is to mod them out yourself; for example, I can whip out Java Bytecode Editor and in a few minutes edit the cave generator class so cave generation is the same as it was before 1.7, or more. And yes, I've downloaded a copy of the Wiki's anvil mechanics page so when/if the time comes I can mod the classes so I can use the old repair system, even with a higher XP cost per level (I regularly get far more XP than I need for repair anyway; I can easily make a backup set while also repairing the stuff I'm using, I can also use iron/gold ore as an "XP bank"). Not that everybody can mod the game themselves, but there are plenty of mods out there.
Related to the above, I also don't understand why some people are so adamant about only playing vanilla, or refuse to stick with an older version (for singleplayer, I know multiplayer servers may require upgrading), even if they don't like changes.
Jeb also said this: "I just wish automation was by design, and not by unclear mob spawn rules"
While I'm kinda on neither side, I do agree with Jeb that mob farms are basically item dupes, in a way. Although the proposed solution probably wasn't the best approach.
At least the people who get iron and gold by standing on a pressure plate can play the game again, because that nerf obviously ruined the entire game. I'm sorry, but all of that was just an unnecessary over reaction with all the sentimental "This makes me want to quit Minecraft" stories being posted everywhere because Jeb changed a few lines of code in some mob drop logic. On top of that, the MC experts come out of hiding presenting their lack of understanding in game balance on both sides of the argument.
Jeb's Law in full effect, I guess. Now we're going to get threads telling Jeb to nerf it again. The whole situation is probably going to end with a mess.
Here's to hoping they nerf iron itself and/or add a new material that can't be farmed.
Iron is already kind of a weak material, actually. Iron tools don't even have twice the durability of stone tools, and most recipes that use iron require a lot of it.
Iron Doors? 6 ingots
Minecarts? 5 ingots
Cauldrons? 7 ingots
Iron Bars and Rails? 6 ingots, though you at least get 16 of each
Detector and Activator Rails? 6 ingots for as many of each
Compasses for maps? 4 ingots each
Pistons and Tripwire Hooks for Trapped Chests? Only 1 ingot each, thankfully, but you usually end up using them in stacks.
Hoppers? 5 ingots each, and you're going to need LOTS of them for item pipelines.
Anvils? 31 ingots, PLUS they wear out like tools, meaning you're always going to need to make more of them!
Is it any wonder people make iron farms in the first place?
Author of , Minecraft's most noteworthy Mega Man-themed resource pack!
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
Yes. I completely agree with A_Hard. let people play the way they want to play. That's why it is called a sandbox game, because it is designed to be open world, freedom, do whatever the hell you want. You don't want farms? Fine, don't build them. How I get my iron or gold in a single player world is completely irrelevant and unconcerning to anybody else, yet some people make it their job it seems like to make sure that "everybody has a fair playing advantage,and no exploits are used." It's ridiculous. You people can go mine your iron tediously in caves for hours, while I stay by my big machine I spent ten-twenty hours on that gives my infinite iron and roses and sorts it into my storage room, because that's how I like to play minecraft, and that shouldn't be a concern to anybody who doesn't use farms or even the devs. Now, straight up glitching item duping is different, but just simply exploiting mob spawns (and you can argue about if it's even exploiting them) is in no way duping.
I wish people would just think about other people's opinions and views, rather than push their view as the ultimate deciding factor...
normally, if minecraft was just an adventuring game, and nobody did these absurd farms, at least 95% of people would think that iron golem spawning was villagers building them, that villagers bred to fill in new homes and were people, that endermen were intelligent, dangerous creatures that could teleport.
Sounds like someone arguing we should abandon science for blind religious belief because it makes the world so much more magical! If it it does for you knock yourself out. You can still believe that in your games.
now, doesn't that make for a far more fulfilling visualization of things in the game then them just being technical bits of data that generate under certain conditions?, that rely on very specific conditions to spawn?.
no...because because I don't care about imagining a back story to the mechanics in my game. However lets say that it is important to me. In that case I'm just discovering the physical rules that govern the rate villagers can build golems and harnessing that knowledge. Still a pretty nice story.
some may argue that minecraft has no story and shouldn't, but i disagree, every game at least needs a set of logical assumptions shared by almost everyone, have you noticed how, in games where you aren't able to abuse game mechanics, the story and general world and exploration feels so much more fulfilling?, nobody thinks of them as entities that are spawned with enough of a certain thing, people take them for what they feel like and seem to be.
If minecraft requires a story for you to play it then great. I hope you come up with a great one. However I don't need it. I never plan on playing with you so why do I need to share your story? Also, I play plenty of other types of games from FPS, to RTS, to turn based strategy, to RPGs. If I wanted a game that didn't allow emergent gameplay to develop from its base ruleset then I've got a myriad of options. That emergent gameplay is what sets Minecraft apart for me and makes it worth playing. So, for me, Minecraft would be far far worse without it.
If you follow the conversations in the first tweet and the one after that, Jeb's views become very intriguing. He's expressed admiration for all of the advanced mechanics and blocks in Feed The Beast and Tekkit, so he's essentially saying that he doesn't mind automation, but wishes it was handled the same way as in those mod packs? I'm surprised, yet I find that as a reasonable stance to take. You'd think something like, say, the mob spawner machines in Tekkit would easily break the game, but they don't because they need constant sources of fuel and mob essence to keep them running. The machines may not wear out and break, but they still need to be constantly maintained.
It's also suggested that the iron and gold farm nerfs were actually part of a larger plan, not to force people to play the game only one way, but to introduce new blocks and mechanics that would essentially do the same things as the old exploits. Collectively, all of the recent updates have been designed to make the game more stable and robust for future features, like the modding API, so it's more likely that Mojang made the mistake of trying to get everyone to quit some of the most popular automation cold turkey.
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Author of , Minecraft's most noteworthy Mega Man-themed resource pack!
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
Jeb also said this: "I just wish automation was by design, and not by unclear mob spawn rules"
I will always support the idea that the developers should not explicitly favor mob or item farms in any way. But this means they should not nerf them either. The point is simply that players like to explore the limits of their games, and farms are just a way of doing that. It seems counterintuitive to put explicit limits on the game with the intention to reduce farming when this is a sandbox. It sort of gives credit to those accusing the game into turning into an RPG, with its set of hard rules.
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I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
The change was to farms that give you items such as gold and iron, such that you couldn't sit AFK for three hours and get free Iron and Gold. (with the change) in order to get Iron ingots from a iron golem and gold nuggets or ingots from a pigman, a player must be responsible for the death of the pigman.
Made sense to me. Literally the only effect is to make it so Iron and Gold cannot be had for free, really.
I don't know if it applied to standard mob farms, though given you need to kill mobs yourself to get XP anyways it made sense to apply that also to item drops.
I've never really followed the "sandbox" argument, considering 'sandbox' is what people lump it as and has nothing to do with anything in the design. GTA3 is technically a "sandbox" game but nobody seems to use that to suggest that upside down cars should not catch fire.
It's also suggested that the iron and gold farm nerfs were actually part of a larger plan, not to force people to play the game only one way, but to introduce new blocks and mechanics that would essentially do the same things as the old exploits.
Seems a whole bunch of hogwash. If Jeb wants to introduce new game mechanics then stop adding chicken jockeys and slime blocks and introduce bloody new game mechanics. Then he can nerf whatever was replaced by the new features.
This talk of "we are making changes for future features" is just nonsense talk, that's starting to become too repetitive, and from someone who doesn't really have a plan of where exactly they should lead Minecraft. Otherwise he wouldn't consider taking back the changes he just made. Who in his perfect sense would just scratch this supposed awesome plan they have (and never tell anyone about it) because people complained on reddit? I wish Jeb would just shutup.
EDIT: I initially mistaken the quote for Dinnerbone's. It's Jeb's. Post edited to reflect that.
I watched docm77's video on the nerf, and it seems that it allows you to get multiple stacks of iron quite easily and quickly. That's insane, it's a incredibly cheaty way to get iron or gold. If you want to use that in single player, then knock yourself out! But the problem here is that everything in SSP, carries over to SMP. That means that in highly competitive pvp servers, such as factions/pvp, or anarchy, etc, by the time I've done about an hour of mining iron, some cheaty jerk who uses an iron farm and gets that much in a mere minute or two.
That's absurd!
btw: you may want to change the title's word "repeal", to "remove". It probably confuses some people.
Seems a whole bunch of hogwash. If Jeb wants to introduce new game mechanics then stop adding chicken jockeys and slime blocks and introduce bloody new game mechanics. Then he can nerf whatever was replaced by the new features.
This talk of "we are making changes for future features" is just nonsense talk, that's starting to become too repetitive, and from someone who doesn't really have a plan of where exactly they should lead Minecraft. Otherwise he wouldn't consider taking back the changes he just made. Who in his perfect sense would just scratch this supposed awesome plan they have (and never tell anyone about it) because people complained on reddit? I wish Jeb would just shutup.
I'll grant that actions speak louder than words. But I'm willing to give Jeb the benefit of the doubt. He's proven that he values the community more than his personal preferences and he's an all-around nice guy, so I'm willing to tolerate some basic human mistakes from him.
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Author of , Minecraft's most noteworthy Mega Man-themed resource pack!
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
I'll grant that actions speak louder than words. But I'm willing to give Jeb the benefit of the doubt. He's proven that he values the community more than his personal preferences and he's an all-around nice guy, so I'm willing to tolerate some basic human mistakes from him.
You forgot the #1 rule of these forums, developers are not allowed to make basic human mistakes, they have to be well-oiled machines that are 100% perfect
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
So, according to this string of tweets, it looks like he will be repealing the nerfs because of the uproar on Reddit.
I am indifferent to the farms, I do not use them but some of the people on my server do, it is honestly up to your playstyle.
I honestly prefer to get my xp through the tasks I already do. Breeding my cows, smelting my ores, killing mobs that attack me, etc. I don't really like the idea of easy xp. But I do always enjoy seeing what farms people can engineer.
Here's to hoping they nerf iron itself and/or add a new material that can't be farmed.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
Won't ever cease to amaze me how people know so much better than myself how I should enjoy my game.
I don't know why Minecraft attracted so many psychotherapists. But I'm glad it did. We, the people who are wrong on how they enjoy this game, need help.
Any last vestige of consistency in your argumentation just died with this last statement.
It was a very large post, but I read it all. I just like to read. It however was nothing more than a very elaborate and ridiculous way of saying that people who build farms don't have any imagination and can't, among other things, invent and create their own MInecraft story. Or that in not doing so their game is somehow diminished.
I could tell you you are incredibly wrong. But I suspect it won't do any good. Your post reeks of ignorant stereotyping. You are beyond my healing powers.
That's pretty much what I think as well; I've never used them (aside from a simple dungeon-based manual-kill farm in my first main world; I've since mined Nether quartz to get XP to enchant my items initially) simply because I've never had the need to get loads of XP or mob drops, at least over the long-term; no point in building a fancy farm that I only use for a short time (I also think Looting is useless for general use for this reason); the way I play, I get the enchantments that I want when I start, then just repair my items from then on, with materials being a non-issue for the same reason, my playstyle (now, obviously, I am very much against the new repair system which prevents renaming from fixing the repair cost, never mind having the cost not depend on enchantments makes no sense; an armor/tools mod I use depends on the latter to help balance it out).
Of course, my solution to undesirable changes in the game is to mod them out yourself; for example, I can whip out Java Bytecode Editor and in a few minutes edit the cave generator class so cave generation is the same as it was before 1.7, or more. And yes, I've downloaded a copy of the Wiki's anvil mechanics page so when/if the time comes I can mod the classes so I can use the old repair system, even with a higher XP cost per level (I regularly get far more XP than I need for repair anyway; I can easily make a backup set while also repairing the stuff I'm using, I can also use iron/gold ore as an "XP bank"). Not that everybody can mod the game themselves, but there are plenty of mods out there.
Related to the above, I also don't understand why some people are so adamant about only playing vanilla, or refuse to stick with an older version (for singleplayer, I know multiplayer servers may require upgrading), even if they don't like changes.
TheMasterCaver's First World - possibly the most caved-out world in Minecraft history - includes world download.
TheMasterCaver's World - my own version of Minecraft largely based on my views of how the game should have evolved since 1.6.4.
Why do I still play in 1.6.4?
While I'm kinda on neither side, I do agree with Jeb that mob farms are basically item dupes, in a way. Although the proposed solution probably wasn't the best approach.
At least the people who get iron and gold by standing on a pressure plate can play the game again, because that nerf obviously ruined the entire game. I'm sorry, but all of that was just an unnecessary over reaction with all the sentimental "This makes me want to quit Minecraft" stories being posted everywhere because Jeb changed a few lines of code in some mob drop logic. On top of that, the MC experts come out of hiding presenting their lack of understanding in game balance on both sides of the argument.
Jeb's Law in full effect, I guess. Now we're going to get threads telling Jeb to nerf it again. The whole situation is probably going to end with a mess.
Iron is already kind of a weak material, actually. Iron tools don't even have twice the durability of stone tools, and most recipes that use iron require a lot of it.
Iron Doors? 6 ingots
Minecarts? 5 ingots
Cauldrons? 7 ingots
Iron Bars and Rails? 6 ingots, though you at least get 16 of each
Detector and Activator Rails? 6 ingots for as many of each
Compasses for maps? 4 ingots each
Pistons and Tripwire Hooks for Trapped Chests? Only 1 ingot each, thankfully, but you usually end up using them in stacks.
Hoppers? 5 ingots each, and you're going to need LOTS of them for item pipelines.
Anvils? 31 ingots, PLUS they wear out like tools, meaning you're always going to need to make more of them!
Is it any wonder people make iron farms in the first place?
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
I wish people would just think about other people's opinions and views, rather than push their view as the ultimate deciding factor...
Sounds like someone arguing we should abandon science for blind religious belief because it makes the world so much more magical! If it it does for you knock yourself out. You can still believe that in your games.
no...because because I don't care about imagining a back story to the mechanics in my game. However lets say that it is important to me. In that case I'm just discovering the physical rules that govern the rate villagers can build golems and harnessing that knowledge. Still a pretty nice story.
If minecraft requires a story for you to play it then great. I hope you come up with a great one. However I don't need it. I never plan on playing with you so why do I need to share your story? Also, I play plenty of other types of games from FPS, to RTS, to turn based strategy, to RPGs. If I wanted a game that didn't allow emergent gameplay to develop from its base ruleset then I've got a myriad of options. That emergent gameplay is what sets Minecraft apart for me and makes it worth playing. So, for me, Minecraft would be far far worse without it.
It's also suggested that the iron and gold farm nerfs were actually part of a larger plan, not to force people to play the game only one way, but to introduce new blocks and mechanics that would essentially do the same things as the old exploits. Collectively, all of the recent updates have been designed to make the game more stable and robust for future features, like the modding API, so it's more likely that Mojang made the mistake of trying to get everyone to quit some of the most popular automation cold turkey.
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
I will always support the idea that the developers should not explicitly favor mob or item farms in any way. But this means they should not nerf them either. The point is simply that players like to explore the limits of their games, and farms are just a way of doing that. It seems counterintuitive to put explicit limits on the game with the intention to reduce farming when this is a sandbox. It sort of gives credit to those accusing the game into turning into an RPG, with its set of hard rules.
Made sense to me. Literally the only effect is to make it so Iron and Gold cannot be had for free, really.
I don't know if it applied to standard mob farms, though given you need to kill mobs yourself to get XP anyways it made sense to apply that also to item drops.
I've never really followed the "sandbox" argument, considering 'sandbox' is what people lump it as and has nothing to do with anything in the design. GTA3 is technically a "sandbox" game but nobody seems to use that to suggest that upside down cars should not catch fire.
Seems a whole bunch of hogwash. If Jeb wants to introduce new game mechanics then stop adding chicken jockeys and slime blocks and introduce bloody new game mechanics. Then he can nerf whatever was replaced by the new features.
This talk of "we are making changes for future features" is just nonsense talk, that's starting to become too repetitive, and from someone who doesn't really have a plan of where exactly they should lead Minecraft. Otherwise he wouldn't consider taking back the changes he just made. Who in his perfect sense would just scratch this supposed awesome plan they have (and never tell anyone about it) because people complained on reddit? I wish Jeb would just shutup.
EDIT: I initially mistaken the quote for Dinnerbone's. It's Jeb's. Post edited to reflect that.
That's absurd!
btw: you may want to change the title's word "repeal", to "remove". It probably confuses some people.
I found one.
I'll grant that actions speak louder than words. But I'm willing to give Jeb the benefit of the doubt. He's proven that he values the community more than his personal preferences and he's an all-around nice guy, so I'm willing to tolerate some basic human mistakes from him.
Also the author of Tales from the Creature Keeper, a book series where humanity is long gone, but its successors, both domesticated and feral, could learn a lot from its legacy.
You forgot the #1 rule of these forums, developers are not allowed to make basic human mistakes, they have to be well-oiled machines that are 100% perfect