I think they think they are working on "the API" when they make things like this. It's almost like they're writing their own language for Minecraft Commands, on which they hope all mods will be based. My opinion: I mean, it's not like Java is the best, but at least it's an existing language.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I think you are going to love my Survival Let's Play series on YouTube! It's called Spaceboot1's Garden. I make pretty things.
I think Dinnerbone would do great in marketing. His claim is one of those situations where we can say "With the truth you fool me".
He's almost certainly not lying, because whatever they do, it will affect or help implement the Plugin API. But I can be creating this great AI in preparation for my strategy game, but what will that mean if I don't actually end developing my strategy game?
They have been preparing the plugin API for 4 years. It's another sort of message that we should be getting. Not the same ol' stuff we have been listening since the formation of the solar system.
He's almost certainly not lying, because whatever they do, it will affect or help implement the Plugin API.
To offer a concrete example, blocks in 14w06 can have custom models defined via a json file (bzd.class for the curious). Now is this useful for an eventual Plugin API? Absolutely. Is it necessary? Definitely not. Plugins could just as well render their blocks in Java code using the same methods the game has been using for years now. This is a feature that could have been added later.
Mojang includes this incidentally helpful stuff as "working on the API", whereas their -- understandably, by now -- impatient audience interprets that phrase to mean only things that are directly required. Frustration builds as Mojang puts out update after update that plainly isn't in that category. Better communication would certainly help, but frankly anyone looking for professionalism from Mojang has an even longer wait ahead of them than modders.
To offer a concrete example, blocks in 14w06 can have custom models defined via a json file (bzd.class for the curious). Now is this useful for an eventual Plugin API? Absolutely. Is it necessary? Definitely not. Plugins could just as well render their blocks in Java code using the same methods the game has been using for years now. This is a feature that could have been added later.
To be honest, where I personally in that spot, I would want to come up with those changes to my program architecture BEFORE rolling out a plugin API. This is so because those are the exact type of changes that can provoke backwards compatibility issues with former APIs. And once a Plugin API is out in the open, you'll want to avoid forcing modders to adjust their mods because the new Plugin API broke them. One of the advertised advantages of the Plugin API is exactly to stop with this terrible burden modders have been going through.
---
But here's the thing, they just keep on pilling and pilling and pilling changes to the game architecture. They just don't stop. There should be a time when they should just say "Let's stop! Let's just make the bloody API already!". They have been on this for years and there's no sign it will ever stop. They just seem drawn into a typical coder endless circle of perfection that invariably is not leading them anywhere. All these changes that exist (as they say) solely for the purpose of a Plugin API, amount to nothing if they don't develop the bloody thing. There must come a time when they must realize this has been on long enough.
And that time hasn't come up yet because unfortunately the modding community is either small or not loud enough. I'm still stuck to 1.6.4 because Minecraft to me is not an option any longer without mods. Long gone is the time I could enjoy vanilla Minecraft. But after nearly 4 years, I think it is understandable that for some of us, vanilla is just not of any interest anymore. I mean, for how long can one take playing the same game over and over again?
And what does this mean, being stuck to 1.6.4? That I have missed on everything introduced in the game since then. All these updates, all these new features... players in my position don't benefit from them. We are closing in 1.8 and no Plugin API in sight, or even an estimate. Meanwhile Forge is still being tested on 1.7.2; the buggy update we all want to forget. Ahead of it there are still the changes and additions in 1.7.4 and 1.7.8. Never before was Forge so compromised by a Mojang decision. There's no indication we will get a Forge for 1.7.8 before the next update rolls on. Many modders have stopped and are waiting, some probably slowly losing the drive and interest to eventually update their mods when Forge finally catches up (we are still waiting to see the real extent of the damage to the modding community introduced with 1.7.2). So, 1.7.8 is almost certainly out as an option for finally playing an up-to-date modded Minecraft. We've been out of mods for 3 months and 2 versions. We may be out for a lot longer. No one really knows...
And all we get from the developers WE WANTED to respect and cherish, is a bunch of laconic statements, half-truths, non commitment and the distinct impression none of them really cares one iota they aren't treating their community with a bit more of respect.
I get this funny feeling on these forums that a lot of the users here simply love to complain about everything. marfig for example is currently loving the opportunity to complain about the plugin api that they are working on as for him it must be released now in an imperfect state. Because Mojang is not allowed to expect only the best of their product, they are not allowed to try and include as much as they can in it to make it the most useful to the modding community as possible. No instead he wants a half finished feature that limits us all.
But no I'm sure that even if they released a completed and amazing plugin api tomorrow there will still be people complaining about the game saying its not everything they wanted and more. Sometimes I hate being a part of the gaming community as any type of online message board or meeting place is full of whiners who love to complain about the smallest of things.
Sometimes I hate being a part of the gaming community as any type of online message board or meeting place is full of whiners who love to complain about the smallest of things.
I simply find it amazing (but unlike you not enough to hate this community) that some people so easily degrade and diminish other people's complaints, because they are simply not affected by these problems. Take you for instance: You call "the smallest of things" the fact we don'y have mod support since version 1.7.2 and the fact the Plugin API is being promised for 4 years. Well done in completely ignoring and degrading your fellow players for whom this is a problem.
I do believe the developers have methods to contact them. I suggest everyone who's frustrated by the title question to either send them this forum's URL or actually say all this stuff to them. If enough people do it with the level of reasoning I've seen here, they'll probably give some answer (unlike those who simply ask where the API is). Especially if you hound on them for the apparently not-good-enough answers they may give in response.
I'm a bit new here, so I don't actually know if this particular action has been attempted before. But if it hasn't, it seems like the obvious solution. Instead of trying to interpret what are apparently mixed messages, try to get an actual answer. Confirm your suspicions. Start a movement. Push the fanbase into doing something. From what I've seen, apathy and unfocused/misdirected behavior is widespread enough that hardly any of this sort of thing actually changes anything with regards to Mojang.
And Mojang won't stop apparently dodging the true question unless you pressure them. And even if they don't, it'll look suspicious enough that it would practically be confirmed that they're not doing anything with it ever.
I do believe the developers have methods to contact them. I suggest everyone who's frustrated by the title question to either send them this forum's URL or actually say all this stuff to them. If enough people do it with the level of reasoning I've seen here, they'll probably give some answer (unlike those who simply ask where the API is). Especially if you hound on them for the apparently not-good-enough answers they may give in response.
I'm a bit new here, so I don't actually know if this particular action has been attempted before. But if it hasn't, it seems like the obvious solution. Instead of trying to interpret what are apparently mixed messages, try to get an actual answer. Confirm your suspicions. Start a movement. Push the fanbase into doing something. From what I've seen, apathy and unfocused/misdirected behavior is widespread enough that hardly any of this sort of thing actually changes anything with regards to Mojang.
And Mojang won't stop apparently dodging the true question unless you pressure them. And even if they don't, it'll look suspicious enough that it would practically be confirmed that they're not doing anything with it ever.
Similar to the cubic chunks suggestion? Similar to the complaints regarding 1.7 huge biomes? They will hear us, and then ignore.
... that's because you fail to interpret what people are saying.
I simply find it amazing (but unlike you not enough to hate this community) that some people so easily degrade and diminish other people's complaints, because they are simply not affected by these problems. Take you for instance: You call "the smallest of things" the fact we don'y have mod support since version 1.7.2 and the fact the Plugin API is being promised for 4 years. Well done in completely ignoring and degrading your fellow players for whom this is a problem.
Yes sense 1.7.2 oh dear lord its been a whole update period without mods, whoa is I! if you want mods just play on the version with the mods until they update to the newer versions. Obviously if there are enough people who feel the same as you on this issue there would still be servers out there for you to play. The fun fact of your argument is that you ,as a normal player in the minecraft community, have no idea what it takes to implement a cohesive and intelligent API into minecraft, you have no idea how long they have been working on it, and you have no idea what all has been done for it in the back scenes. You simply assume that just because you can't see every tiny step they make toward it that is doesn't exist and then you (or others on this forum/mainly using you as an example as your the one currently having this debate with me) make wild accusations like they are not working on it, or it will never come out, or even more outrageous make claims that Jeb is "burned out" and is no longer fit to lead minecraft development.
The fun fact of your argument is that you ,as a normal player in the minecraft community, have no idea what it takes to implement a cohesive and intelligent API into minecraft, you have no idea how long they have been working on it, and you have no idea what all has been done for it in the back scenes.
Probably I know more about it than you. Your ad hominens hurt me very little and I will match them with my own appeal to authority by letting you know that I'm a professional software engineer, 44 years old, and with 22 years of experience in professional software development, plus 8 years as an amateur. I started developing at the age of 16 for the Z80 processor, the processor used in the ZX Spectrum; a popular console in Europe in the 80s.
You simply assume that just because you can't see every tiny step they make toward it that is doesn't exist and then you (or others on this forum/mainly using you as an example as your the one currently having this debate with me) make wild accusations like they are not working on it, or it will never come out
They are founded accusations. This thread is full with the rationale behind them. You just refuse to acknowledge or probably haven't even read them. They are just not just things thrown out of our posterior bottom parts. That's not exactly what I call "wild accusations". But you have revealed already a complete lack of any common sense or even a desire to discuss this issue without insulting the people in this thread. So I'm not surprised seeing you using that expression.
This thread has been quite a civil debate until YOU showed up, with many people agreeing and many people disagreeing. All of them respecting each other points of view. If one day you wish to grow up and have a conversation where you show a minimum of decency and respect for the people involved, I will gladly join in debate. But until that day, you are going to excuse me but I will ignore you from this moment on. Over and out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I was trying to think of a signature and this is what came up.
The problem with the current system is that it is *worse* than a lousy API; rather than having to redo some mods with every version due to changes in the API, we have to redo *every* mod with every change.
I also re-iterate my concern that if we get an API that has effectively "descended from heaven", appearing complete from Mojang, it's going to stink. Mojang is hiring people from the meta-modding community (the people who've written our substitute APIs), but not from the modding community itself. So, on top of the usual concerns that you need feedback, there's going to be a big bias to an API that's easy to write rather than one that's good to use.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
Similar to the cubic chunks suggestion? Similar to the complaints regarding 1.7 huge biomes? They will hear us, and then ignore.
Could Cubic Chunks be implemented without having to put the API on hold?
This is probably kicking the Hornets nest, but what is the issue with the size of biomes in 1.7? I much prefer the new generation, both the temperature-based, and the lack of those tiny bits of biome that clashed all the time before 1.7. It wasn't even that big of a deal to me, I guess it comes down to opinion.
The "Plugin API" is just another another name for the "Mod API". Plugins and Mods are exactly the same thing, just different names.
Actually, no. They aren't. A mod edits the code of what it is made for, a plugin edits it indirectly without actually touching the code. Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The problem with the truth, is that it never lies.
Actually, no. They aren't. A mod edits the code of what it is made for, a plugin edits it indirectly without actually touching the code. Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.
So, what I'm wondering is; why we're all waiting for the plugin API? I'm all for changing Minecraft on a personal level to be able to play the game the way we like, but are mods going to be all that easy to convert to Plugins? I know that's probably a question one of the devs should be answering, but I can't remember anyone having brought it up yet.
So, what I'm wondering is; why we're all waiting for the plugin API? I'm all for changing Minecraft on a personal level to be able to play the game the way we like, but are mods going to be all that easy to convert to Plugins? I know that's probably a question one of the devs should be answering, but I can't remember anyone having brought it up yet.
They have already. Mods will, for the most part, require rewriting. It'll be much easier this time around though, since there will be an API in place.
https://twitter.com/SeargeDP/status/431417678708764672
I think they think they are working on "the API" when they make things like this. It's almost like they're writing their own language for Minecraft Commands, on which they hope all mods will be based. My opinion: I mean, it's not like Java is the best, but at least it's an existing language.
Want to play Minecraft SSP like Spaceboot1? Try my modpack, all mods made by me, Spaceboot1!
Truth or lie?
I believe 95% is over exaggerated.
99% of all percentiles related to work are over-exaggerated.
Venit, quessit, induravit.
I think Dinnerbone would do great in marketing. His claim is one of those situations where we can say "With the truth you fool me".
He's almost certainly not lying, because whatever they do, it will affect or help implement the Plugin API. But I can be creating this great AI in preparation for my strategy game, but what will that mean if I don't actually end developing my strategy game?
They have been preparing the plugin API for 4 years. It's another sort of message that we should be getting. Not the same ol' stuff we have been listening since the formation of the solar system.
Which would mean 100 - 95 * 0.99 is the amount of actual work put on the Plugin API. That is 5.95%.
To offer a concrete example, blocks in 14w06 can have custom models defined via a json file (bzd.class for the curious). Now is this useful for an eventual Plugin API? Absolutely. Is it necessary? Definitely not. Plugins could just as well render their blocks in Java code using the same methods the game has been using for years now. This is a feature that could have been added later.
Mojang includes this incidentally helpful stuff as "working on the API", whereas their -- understandably, by now -- impatient audience interprets that phrase to mean only things that are directly required. Frustration builds as Mojang puts out update after update that plainly isn't in that category. Better communication would certainly help, but frankly anyone looking for professionalism from Mojang has an even longer wait ahead of them than modders.
To be honest, where I personally in that spot, I would want to come up with those changes to my program architecture BEFORE rolling out a plugin API. This is so because those are the exact type of changes that can provoke backwards compatibility issues with former APIs. And once a Plugin API is out in the open, you'll want to avoid forcing modders to adjust their mods because the new Plugin API broke them. One of the advertised advantages of the Plugin API is exactly to stop with this terrible burden modders have been going through.
---
But here's the thing, they just keep on pilling and pilling and pilling changes to the game architecture. They just don't stop. There should be a time when they should just say "Let's stop! Let's just make the bloody API already!". They have been on this for years and there's no sign it will ever stop. They just seem drawn into a typical coder endless circle of perfection that invariably is not leading them anywhere. All these changes that exist (as they say) solely for the purpose of a Plugin API, amount to nothing if they don't develop the bloody thing. There must come a time when they must realize this has been on long enough.
And that time hasn't come up yet because unfortunately the modding community is either small or not loud enough. I'm still stuck to 1.6.4 because Minecraft to me is not an option any longer without mods. Long gone is the time I could enjoy vanilla Minecraft. But after nearly 4 years, I think it is understandable that for some of us, vanilla is just not of any interest anymore. I mean, for how long can one take playing the same game over and over again?
And what does this mean, being stuck to 1.6.4? That I have missed on everything introduced in the game since then. All these updates, all these new features... players in my position don't benefit from them. We are closing in 1.8 and no Plugin API in sight, or even an estimate. Meanwhile Forge is still being tested on 1.7.2; the buggy update we all want to forget. Ahead of it there are still the changes and additions in 1.7.4 and 1.7.8. Never before was Forge so compromised by a Mojang decision. There's no indication we will get a Forge for 1.7.8 before the next update rolls on. Many modders have stopped and are waiting, some probably slowly losing the drive and interest to eventually update their mods when Forge finally catches up (we are still waiting to see the real extent of the damage to the modding community introduced with 1.7.2). So, 1.7.8 is almost certainly out as an option for finally playing an up-to-date modded Minecraft. We've been out of mods for 3 months and 2 versions. We may be out for a lot longer. No one really knows...
And all we get from the developers WE WANTED to respect and cherish, is a bunch of laconic statements, half-truths, non commitment and the distinct impression none of them really cares one iota they aren't treating their community with a bit more of respect.
But no I'm sure that even if they released a completed and amazing plugin api tomorrow there will still be people complaining about the game saying its not everything they wanted and more. Sometimes I hate being a part of the gaming community as any type of online message board or meeting place is full of whiners who love to complain about the smallest of things.
I agree. You get funny feelings. And...
... that's because you fail to interpret what people are saying.
I simply find it amazing (but unlike you not enough to hate this community) that some people so easily degrade and diminish other people's complaints, because they are simply not affected by these problems. Take you for instance: You call "the smallest of things" the fact we don'y have mod support since version 1.7.2 and the fact the Plugin API is being promised for 4 years. Well done in completely ignoring and degrading your fellow players for whom this is a problem.
I'm a bit new here, so I don't actually know if this particular action has been attempted before. But if it hasn't, it seems like the obvious solution. Instead of trying to interpret what are apparently mixed messages, try to get an actual answer. Confirm your suspicions. Start a movement. Push the fanbase into doing something. From what I've seen, apathy and unfocused/misdirected behavior is widespread enough that hardly any of this sort of thing actually changes anything with regards to Mojang.
And Mojang won't stop apparently dodging the true question unless you pressure them. And even if they don't, it'll look suspicious enough that it would practically be confirmed that they're not doing anything with it ever.
If you are planning to make a suggestion, please read this.
If you want to know more, you can read this.
For those who complain about post-Beta generation, you might want to see this.
Similar to the cubic chunks suggestion? Similar to the complaints regarding 1.7 huge biomes? They will hear us, and then ignore.
Yes sense 1.7.2 oh dear lord its been a whole update period without mods, whoa is I! if you want mods just play on the version with the mods until they update to the newer versions. Obviously if there are enough people who feel the same as you on this issue there would still be servers out there for you to play. The fun fact of your argument is that you ,as a normal player in the minecraft community, have no idea what it takes to implement a cohesive and intelligent API into minecraft, you have no idea how long they have been working on it, and you have no idea what all has been done for it in the back scenes. You simply assume that just because you can't see every tiny step they make toward it that is doesn't exist and then you (or others on this forum/mainly using you as an example as your the one currently having this debate with me) make wild accusations like they are not working on it, or it will never come out, or even more outrageous make claims that Jeb is "burned out" and is no longer fit to lead minecraft development.
Probably I know more about it than you. Your ad hominens hurt me very little and I will match them with my own appeal to authority by letting you know that I'm a professional software engineer, 44 years old, and with 22 years of experience in professional software development, plus 8 years as an amateur. I started developing at the age of 16 for the Z80 processor, the processor used in the ZX Spectrum; a popular console in Europe in the 80s.
They are founded accusations. This thread is full with the rationale behind them. You just refuse to acknowledge or probably haven't even read them. They are just not just things thrown out of our posterior bottom parts. That's not exactly what I call "wild accusations". But you have revealed already a complete lack of any common sense or even a desire to discuss this issue without insulting the people in this thread. So I'm not surprised seeing you using that expression.
This thread has been quite a civil debate until YOU showed up, with many people agreeing and many people disagreeing. All of them respecting each other points of view. If one day you wish to grow up and have a conversation where you show a minimum of decency and respect for the people involved, I will gladly join in debate. But until that day, you are going to excuse me but I will ignore you from this moment on. Over and out.
I also re-iterate my concern that if we get an API that has effectively "descended from heaven", appearing complete from Mojang, it's going to stink. Mojang is hiring people from the meta-modding community (the people who've written our substitute APIs), but not from the modding community itself. So, on top of the usual concerns that you need feedback, there's going to be a big bias to an API that's easy to write rather than one that's good to use.
Geographicraft (formerly Climate Control) - Control climate, ocean, and land sizes; stop chunk walls; put modded biomes into Default worlds, and more!
RTG plus - All the beautiful terrain of RTG, plus varied and beautiful trees and forests.
Could Cubic Chunks be implemented without having to put the API on hold?
This is probably kicking the Hornets nest, but what is the issue with the size of biomes in 1.7? I much prefer the new generation, both the temperature-based, and the lack of those tiny bits of biome that clashed all the time before 1.7. It wasn't even that big of a deal to me, I guess it comes down to opinion.
Actually, no. They aren't. A mod edits the code of what it is made for, a plugin edits it indirectly without actually touching the code. Just look at the names, mod is short for modification, it modifies. Plugins plug in to it, meaning they do not edit it directly.
So, what I'm wondering is; why we're all waiting for the plugin API? I'm all for changing Minecraft on a personal level to be able to play the game the way we like, but are mods going to be all that easy to convert to Plugins? I know that's probably a question one of the devs should be answering, but I can't remember anyone having brought it up yet.
They have already. Mods will, for the most part, require rewriting. It'll be much easier this time around though, since there will be an API in place.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.