Randomization like that is a very bad idea I think. Especially with the nature of mine-craft, being almost scientific on getting certain results (Redstone, other mechanics) Adding in something random just to be random doesn't end up doing many people any good.
I've always liked the randomization with the anvils and I like it with the bonemeal. Biological organisms tend to be somewhat random with growth patterns which is why I like the bonemeal change. As for anvils I view it failing due to fatigue. When it comes to fatigue failure, the curves we as a species have that compare stress with number of cycles until the object fails are trendlines at best. Science isn't as absolute when it comes to materials or biology.
Unholy, there is a difference between adding something for-fun to the game, and nerfing something that wasn't actually causing problems for anyone but the diehard survival fans who think that surviving in Minecraft should be the end all challenge, and that food is somehow hard to get so Bonemeal makes it easier.
I also do not want to use mods because Mojang makes a bad decision. I'd rather they fix the bad choice by being provided feedback, instead of me just giving in and saying that it's their game and they can change whatever the heck they want to without negative feedback.
Unholy, there is a difference between adding something for-fun to the game, and nerfing something that wasn't actually causing problems for anyone but the diehard survival fans who think that surviving in Minecraft should be the end all challenge, and that food is somehow hard to get so Bonemeal makes it easier.
I also do not want to use mods because Mojang makes a bad decision. I'd rather they fix the bad choice by being provided feedback, instead of me just giving in and saying that it's their game and they can change whatever the heck they want to without negative feedback.
They wanted to Nerf it. They Nerfed it. People complained it was too Nerfed. They De-nerfed it a little so it's somewhere in the middle. People are still complaining.
I'm not saying you can't complain, hell, I complained to no end that the SP/MP Merger aka the Internal Server Setup would ruin Minecraft because of the MASSIVE lag spikes. I also complained that the initial Bonemeal Nerf was going too far. I keep complaining that you can't cook eggs and that the game needs to be better optimized.
I am saying that Bonemeal really shouldn't be at the forefront of complaints now that it's a little less than Insta-grow and not nearly as bad as 7:1 for Wheat. I mean, you can't tell me that Bonemeal wasn't at least the tiniest bit OP and could've used a good Nerfing if only because it's a little silly to grow entire forests or acres of grain on a handful of bones.
Biological organisms tend to be somewhat random with growth patterns which is why I like the bonemeal change. As for anvils I view it [as] failing due to fatigue. When it comes to fatigue failure, the curves we as a species have that compare stress with [the] number of cycles until the object fails are trendlines at best. Science isn't as absolute when it comes to materials or biology.
A little too science-y for my tastes but correct none-the-less. Randomness within acceptable parameters is a way of life and a way of gaming. There are no certaintees, just estimates. And to those who want set numbers, I go back to what I said earlier on this thread. If you think it doesn't exist in Minecraft already, just take a good look at Mob Drops and that will tell you just how random things are.
I kinda live my Minecraft life under a few simple rules. You wanna hear them?
Rule 1: It's not my game so when Mojang does something (like add Fireworks) when they could be doing something else a little more important (like Optimizing the game), I have to deal with it.
Rule 2: Irrelevant stuff is exactly that. Be it Bonemeal, Wool, or different colored Wooden Steps, it doesn't matter if it's Green, Red, Black, Pink, or White, Light, Dark, or Cherry, 1, or 3. If it's not too outlandish, it's just another slot in my inventory and/or another use to make up for it.
Rule 3: If I want a specific something or just more in general, I play with a Mod or Mod Pack installed.
Rule 4: If I don't like it's look, I install a Texture Pack.
Rule 5: If I really gave a damn, I know how to program Java and could very easily modify the numbers to make it work the way I wanted it to.
You might use some of these rules yourself.
This dude deserves a medal. Seriously. All these people complaining, whining, its been beta tested for not even a week! Oh noes! The thing that made a me a god in-game is nerfed! Let's complain nonstop so we can make the game easy again! Jeb must be scratching his head, wondering why the community is like this, wants something, gets it, then cries about it being implemented. Notch probably saw this, and thats why he left MC for Scrolls and 10xc. Their communities literally do not complain. Literally. They constructively criticize, something I wish was required to post on these forums. Cmon people, you guys even read what you type?
Randomization like that is a very bad idea I think. Especially with the nature of mine-craft, being almost scientific on getting certain results (Redstone, other mechanics) Adding in something random just to be random doesn't end up doing many people any good.
Minecraft just LOVES having pure nonsensical randomness everywhere.
Crops grow randomly.
Mineshafts appear randomly, and are so extremely random in their generation that eventually they all look the same.
Everything is random and mainly disconneced from everything else.
That's just the way it is and Mojang likes it like that.
We'll have to learn to live with it. At least, recipes are fixed. Imagine if recipes would be "try to craft" instead of "do craft". You'd try to make a stone pickaxe and sometimes it would take 2 sticks and 3 stones, but other times it would fail consuming 1 or 2 sticks and/or stones, and you'd have to re-click to grab the output again "until" you finally finish making the pickaxe. Gaaah what a nightware that would be.
I think Mojang managed to cut the pear in half on the bonemael issue. But unless they slow down the growth rate of trees and grows, bonemeal will very stay a niche item, used only to kickstart a wolf pack or a farm. They didn't really adress the issue, but well, that's it.
To me it will only make sense (the nerf, now rebalanced) if a disperser does not use a bonemeal on a grown crop/tree.
The dispenser bonemealing insertion in the game was for automation purpose (just like hoppers).
You cannot reliably automate something that is random.
Because otherwise this simple mechanic is void, as a single use does not guarantee a full growth, and a multiple use will inevitably lose tons of bonemeal for already grown crop.
Ask youself: why would you use a mechanic that will make you waste tons of bonemeal? Answer is: YOU WONT.
This is not the same as enchanting being random, or generation being random, as they have nothing to do with an automation mechanic.
There is need to be sarcastic, because the nerf to Bonemeal was completely unneeded and the people who claim that Bonemeal was OP have no actual evidence to support their claim, other than their opinion.
Both sides only have opinion to back up their claims. One side's opinion is that the nerf was bad because it harmed new spawns and or was an unnecessary change. A valid opinion. The other side enjoys the challenge it adds, another valid opinion.
This is all opinion, and all evidence is speculative at best. People who support the nerf cannot quantify the difficulty it adds, and those who dislike the change cannot provide static proof that it harms new spawns, or was unnecessary.
This dude deserves a medal. Seriously. All these people complaining, whining, its been beta tested for not even a week! Oh noes! The thing that made a me a god in-game is nerfed! Let's complain nonstop so we can make the game easy again! Jeb must be scratching his head, wondering why the community is like this, wants something, gets it, then cries about it being implemented. Notch probably saw this, and thats why he left MC for Scrolls and 10xc. Their communities literally do not complain. Literally. They constructively criticize, something I wish was required to post on these forums. Cmon people, you guys even read what you type?
I think you're really overreacting. n__n; And I highly doubt Notch was like, "A few people out of millions are complaining?! Screw this, I'm going to make a different game!" I mean when there're literally millions of players, of course not everyone is going to be happy with updates. That's just common sense. He most likely went on to other games because he wasn't passionate anymore about Minecraft. I think he even said that Jeb was more interested than he was in the game.
And of course those other communities aren't complaining as much! That's how it works for all small games because of the smaller community. There aren't as many people, and so there's a smaller chance that a large number of people will be really unhappy.
Quite frankly, I think it's a good thing people are voicing their opinions. That's the point of snapshots; for us to test the game's features and voice our opinion.
Oh good, realism. I know I've always complained about how gamebreaking my wheat production was.
Hopefully we'll get an update on gravity next. Being able to float blocks in the air with no support under them is completely OP and it needs to be fixed. I mean, really... being able to walk backwards and build a levitating line of stone a hundred blocks long to span a chasm? What crap. That needs fixed!
I'd actually like it if blocks had a certain degree of tensile and compression strength, so that certain structures would collapse without support. The stronger the material, the longer the gap it can span, and the more weight it can support. That's how I tend to build in survival, anyways. Though I must admit that it can be fun to make floating structures...
As for the latest change to bonemeal, I'm fine with it. It's no longer ridiculously overpowered, and the randomness is a minor speedbump to automated farming, given that you don't waste bonemeal on already grown crops.
I love this quote ... 2-3 bonemeal per crop ... So its random then??
Anyways, to all the people saying that people are moaning about anything ... people aren't. Put quite simply, people wanted a lower number than 7.... Instead they got a randomizer. The addition of a randomizer simply means that no automatic processes can ever be used to grow crops. As such, there was no point in even nerving bonemeal in the first place?
This conversation isnt happening because people are never happy ... its happening because people want a set number of bonemeal to work there automatic inventions!
I for one have no idea why Mojang would add anything random into a game that depends on set numbers for peoples invesntions to work!!
If you can create a redstone circuit that allows you to send four pulses per cycle, then you can create an automated fertilizer system, even with the randomness.
Am I the only one who actually thinks this bonemeal update fits perfectly and is very happy about it?
No, you're not the only one. I've always thought that bonemeal was hidiously overpowered, which is why I rarely used it in my survival games. I think the balance in the latest snapshot is just right, not insta-grow, not too expensive for use early in the game. And I like it that trees cost more than crops to grow.
On another note, I'd like to congratulate Mojang for finally getting the lighting almost right on upside down stairs and slabs. At they're no longer pitch black when there's a block on top of them, and unnecessary shadows around the edges are barely noticeable.
There is always going to be "cheese" instant growth.
Hate to be that guy but its still "cheese" instant growth. Saying it isn't because you use 2-3 bonemeal instead of one is like me saying my instant coco isn't instant anymore because I usually make 16oz which requires two packets of instant coco.
What bothers me is the randomness. People keep saying they want things changed to be more challenging and somehow this answers their prayers. Except randomness != challenge. Any more than changing bonemeal as it has been. When food was never a real factor in the game to begin with, so it did nothing to introduce challenge.
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe randomness is the answer. I for one certainly don't look forward to diamond armor and swords that break after a single hit because randomness. Tho fighting a bunch of mobs and suddenly being without armor or weapons would be "challenging".
If they want to change bonemeal they should either settle on a set number or have it adjust the growth timer not jump to a random stage. Here is to hoping this isn't their answer to ballance, merely one adjustment with many more to come.
There are quite a few adventure maps that will be broken with this needless tinkering. especially the ones that need you to grow a jungle tree to use as a ladder. Adventure maps are made with the idea of precision. Only allow the players so much. this nerf makes that so much harder.
Also, apparently it took a few people almost a stack of bone meal just to grow a large jungle tree. they were robbed by the randomness, and a possible intermitten bug.
Many people suggested a hard number. No one asked for randomization of bonemeal. Now you're saying that we shoudn't complain because Mojang did something that no one asked for. Why we shouldn't say what we want? Why shouldn't express our thoughts.
Come on guys D: The bonemeal thing is now set in stone. We should stop fighting on about bonemeal and fight about something else chat about something else.
It is not set in stone untill the 1.5 update. and not even then. there will be 1.5.2, 1.5.3, 1.5.4,1.5.5 and so on. Each will be an opportunity to remove this horrid, needless nerf.
"And neither my grammar is bad." I hope that was a joke.
Provide you with a thread where people asked for random growth? I didn't say people asked for random growth.
Underline where you said Mojang should only do what you want? You were obviously implying that here:
1 typo on letters that are close? My grammar is bad terribly bad. English isn't the world's native language.
And you should learn how to not use strawman arguments:
"No one asked for randomization of bonemeal. Now you're saying that we shoudn't complain because Mojang did something that no one asked for. Why we shouldn't say what we want?"
So expressing my opinion means that I'm forcing Mojang to do what I want. Strawman arguments everywhere.
I think what many people are failing to see with the nerf is the nerf is in place not only to bring a touch more realism and bring more value to bones; but more importantly a drawback to automatic farming.
I think what many people are failing to see with the nerf is the nerf is in place not only to bring a touch more realism and bring more value to bones; but more importantly a drawback to automatic farming.
I think what many people are failing to see is that calling something like growing wheat too quickly "overpowered" is a stupid argument in a world where I can float buildings in the sky and carry a river in a bucket.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the change as it affects me very little. I just find it utterly pointless, and the cheers of "increased realism" to deserve being smacked upside the head for being idiots. You want to start down the "realism" path you've just changed the very nature of the game.
I've always liked the randomization with the anvils and I like it with the bonemeal. Biological organisms tend to be somewhat random with growth patterns which is why I like the bonemeal change. As for anvils I view it failing due to fatigue. When it comes to fatigue failure, the curves we as a species have that compare stress with number of cycles until the object fails are trendlines at best. Science isn't as absolute when it comes to materials or biology.
I also do not want to use mods because Mojang makes a bad decision. I'd rather they fix the bad choice by being provided feedback, instead of me just giving in and saying that it's their game and they can change whatever the heck they want to without negative feedback.
They wanted to Nerf it. They Nerfed it. People complained it was too Nerfed. They De-nerfed it a little so it's somewhere in the middle. People are still complaining.
I'm not saying you can't complain, hell, I complained to no end that the SP/MP Merger aka the Internal Server Setup would ruin Minecraft because of the MASSIVE lag spikes. I also complained that the initial Bonemeal Nerf was going too far. I keep complaining that you can't cook eggs and that the game needs to be better optimized.
I am saying that Bonemeal really shouldn't be at the forefront of complaints now that it's a little less than Insta-grow and not nearly as bad as 7:1 for Wheat. I mean, you can't tell me that Bonemeal wasn't at least the tiniest bit OP and could've used a good Nerfing if only because it's a little silly to grow entire forests or acres of grain on a handful of bones.
A little too science-y for my tastes but correct none-the-less. Randomness within acceptable parameters is a way of life and a way of gaming. There are no certaintees, just estimates. And to those who want set numbers, I go back to what I said earlier on this thread. If you think it doesn't exist in Minecraft already, just take a good look at Mob Drops and that will tell you just how random things are.
This dude deserves a medal. Seriously. All these people complaining, whining, its been beta tested for not even a week! Oh noes! The thing that made a me a god in-game is nerfed! Let's complain nonstop so we can make the game easy again! Jeb must be scratching his head, wondering why the community is like this, wants something, gets it, then cries about it being implemented. Notch probably saw this, and thats why he left MC for Scrolls and 10xc. Their communities literally do not complain. Literally. They constructively criticize, something I wish was required to post on these forums. Cmon people, you guys even read what you type?
Minecraft just LOVES having pure nonsensical randomness everywhere.
Crops grow randomly.
Mineshafts appear randomly, and are so extremely random in their generation that eventually they all look the same.
Everything is random and mainly disconneced from everything else.
That's just the way it is and Mojang likes it like that.
We'll have to learn to live with it. At least, recipes are fixed. Imagine if recipes would be "try to craft" instead of "do craft". You'd try to make a stone pickaxe and sometimes it would take 2 sticks and 3 stones, but other times it would fail consuming 1 or 2 sticks and/or stones, and you'd have to re-click to grab the output again "until" you finally finish making the pickaxe. Gaaah what a nightware that would be.
I think Mojang managed to cut the pear in half on the bonemael issue. But unless they slow down the growth rate of trees and grows, bonemeal will very stay a niche item, used only to kickstart a wolf pack or a farm. They didn't really adress the issue, but well, that's it.
The dispenser bonemealing insertion in the game was for automation purpose (just like hoppers).
You cannot reliably automate something that is random.
Because otherwise this simple mechanic is void, as a single use does not guarantee a full growth, and a multiple use will inevitably lose tons of bonemeal for already grown crop.
Ask youself: why would you use a mechanic that will make you waste tons of bonemeal? Answer is: YOU WONT.
This is not the same as enchanting being random, or generation being random, as they have nothing to do with an automation mechanic.
In 1.4.7 I know that I can't "waste" a bonemeal on an already grown crop. Has this been tested in update 13w05a? By hand *and* by a dispenser?
Both sides only have opinion to back up their claims. One side's opinion is that the nerf was bad because it harmed new spawns and or was an unnecessary change. A valid opinion. The other side enjoys the challenge it adds, another valid opinion.
This is all opinion, and all evidence is speculative at best. People who support the nerf cannot quantify the difficulty it adds, and those who dislike the change cannot provide static proof that it harms new spawns, or was unnecessary.
There is no hard data for either side to present.
I think you're really overreacting. n__n; And I highly doubt Notch was like, "A few people out of millions are complaining?! Screw this, I'm going to make a different game!" I mean when there're literally millions of players, of course not everyone is going to be happy with updates. That's just common sense. He most likely went on to other games because he wasn't passionate anymore about Minecraft. I think he even said that Jeb was more interested than he was in the game.
And of course those other communities aren't complaining as much! That's how it works for all small games because of the smaller community. There aren't as many people, and so there's a smaller chance that a large number of people will be really unhappy.
Quite frankly, I think it's a good thing people are voicing their opinions. That's the point of snapshots; for us to test the game's features and voice our opinion.
I'd actually like it if blocks had a certain degree of tensile and compression strength, so that certain structures would collapse without support. The stronger the material, the longer the gap it can span, and the more weight it can support. That's how I tend to build in survival, anyways. Though I must admit that it can be fun to make floating structures...
As for the latest change to bonemeal, I'm fine with it. It's no longer ridiculously overpowered, and the randomness is a minor speedbump to automated farming, given that you don't waste bonemeal on already grown crops.
If you can create a redstone circuit that allows you to send four pulses per cycle, then you can create an automated fertilizer system, even with the randomness.
No, you're not the only one. I've always thought that bonemeal was hidiously overpowered, which is why I rarely used it in my survival games. I think the balance in the latest snapshot is just right, not insta-grow, not too expensive for use early in the game. And I like it that trees cost more than crops to grow.
On another note, I'd like to congratulate Mojang for finally getting the lighting almost right on upside down stairs and slabs. At they're no longer pitch black when there's a block on top of them, and unnecessary shadows around the edges are barely noticeable.
Hate to be that guy but its still "cheese" instant growth. Saying it isn't because you use 2-3 bonemeal instead of one is like me saying my instant coco isn't instant anymore because I usually make 16oz which requires two packets of instant coco.
What bothers me is the randomness. People keep saying they want things changed to be more challenging and somehow this answers their prayers. Except randomness != challenge. Any more than changing bonemeal as it has been. When food was never a real factor in the game to begin with, so it did nothing to introduce challenge.
But maybe I'm wrong, maybe randomness is the answer. I for one certainly don't look forward to diamond armor and swords that break after a single hit because randomness. Tho fighting a bunch of mobs and suddenly being without armor or weapons would be "challenging".
If they want to change bonemeal they should either settle on a set number or have it adjust the growth timer not jump to a random stage. Here is to hoping this isn't their answer to ballance, merely one adjustment with many more to come.
No problem with it whatsoever.
Also, apparently it took a few people almost a stack of bone meal just to grow a large jungle tree. they were robbed by the randomness, and a possible intermitten bug.
"And neither my grammar is bad." I hope that was a joke.
Provide you with a thread where people asked for random growth? I didn't say people asked for random growth.
Underline where you said Mojang should only do what you want? You were obviously implying that here:
fight about something elsechat about something else.1 typo on letters that are close? My grammar is bad terribly bad. English isn't the world's native language.
And you should learn how to not use strawman arguments:
"No one asked for randomization of bonemeal. Now you're saying that we shoudn't complain because Mojang did something that no one asked for. Why we shouldn't say what we want?"
So expressing my opinion means that I'm forcing Mojang to do what I want. Strawman arguments everywhere.
I think what many people are failing to see is that calling something like growing wheat too quickly "overpowered" is a stupid argument in a world where I can float buildings in the sky and carry a river in a bucket.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the change as it affects me very little. I just find it utterly pointless, and the cheers of "increased realism" to deserve being smacked upside the head for being idiots. You want to start down the "realism" path you've just changed the very nature of the game.