^This is a null point. It's not about the amount of clicks. It's completely about time.
Funny, because I thought it was not about time, but about challenge and difficulty.
The fact that you didn't mention it shows that you, contrary to cecil, agree that clicking 7 times isn't anymore difficult than clicking one time, just more time consuming.
And time consuming for something so superfluous (keeping your hunger bar full in a game) means that it is nothing but boring and annoying.
You pretty much said that you want players to be bored, if those are the ones that use bonemeal instead of much faster sources of food like steak and porkchops.
By the way, you just proved that you guys want to FORCE your ways of playing into others. What you think is the right and difficult way (which is not, only annoying) and everyone SHOULD play. The OP was not wrong when he said that you guys are controlling.
Bonemeal is instant. If I had enough bones and 1 seed I could make an entire chest full of wheat in about 5 minutes. You can't get a chest full of wheat in 5 minutes with 1 seed by building a normal farm and waiting for it to grow so they can replant again and again until they are able to make a large harvest. You also mentioned having to automate your farm which takes even more time and more resources.
"IF YOU HAD ENOUGH BONES"... you seem to conveniently forget that bonemeal is result of a dangerous mob, and you cannot have bonemeal for days in a regular scenario (not a skeleton farm, which is an endgame thing) unless you take great risks at night fighting mobs.
Bonemeal doesn't fall from the sky and can't be dupped. It's result of a risky activity and therefore was already balanced.
There is only case where bonemeal is useful, the starter days, you have to risk yourself to get it.
None of you guys "pro-nerf" presented a single valid argument against the fact that bonemeal is completely useless once you are past the first few days and have a farm and spend enough of your time doing other things that allow wheat to grow naturally (and probably have iron armor).
So you guys definition of "difficult" is actually staring at a couple wheat inside your dirt house for dozens of minutes because going outside to fight skeletons with stone swords to get bones to speed up the process is "too fast" (as it is the time that matters here, not the challenge right?)
To me looks like Dinnerbone wanted to make dispensers grow crops but thought that it was too unbalanced, and therefore made this stupid change that also affected hand-grown crops. I can only hope that they keep the change for dispensers, but reverse it for players.
Because the way it is now, hand used bonemeal will NEVER be used again for wheat. NEVER.... With plenty of other easier food sources (remember cocoa beans readily available on jungles?) nobody will be staring at freaking digital wheat.
EDIT: I completely agree with your suggestion, so let me make this clear:
Personally I would like to see a new recepie. I think 1 bone and 1 rotten flesh would be a fair recepie for 1 bonemeal. This would reduce the crafting recepie from a ratio of 3:1 to 1:1 and give rotten flesh a use that makes sense - fertilizer. Bonemeal could then keep its original effects and everyone is happy.
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Lol, still using this failed argument that bonemeal somehow makes you anywhere closer to enchanting? How cute!
Punching wood leads to bookshelves that lead to enchanting too!!
Let's remove punching wood altogether...! Players should have to grind gravel for flint and grind leaves for twigs and kill spiders for string so he can make one of these:
Because you know, Punching wood is too OP.
Damn those wood punchers who are getting to end-game content too fast and are not getting bored grinding for flint!!
EDIT: Ow wait, just saw that you already said that with your own words:
Don't forget on Multiplayer things may be entirely different. Ya have your survival servers here which may branch into three-four types of servers and then over here ya have hybrid servers and objective servers.
On lots of SMP servers like the two I've been on there are public farms. Especially if there is towny or something.
So what if a in PvP servers some faction finds a skelly spawner. That doesn't really give a big edge to getting food since if you have a good sized farm it like Mackinz said then it wouldn't really matter. Also finding spawners has some luck factor into it which is fair. Also if the pvp server has a donating system where they get free spawners then that's a whole other issue right there.
Lots of you honestly think that with bonemeal it affects everything because it will affect wheat which is "THE KEY to everything" as Cecil and others may have implied. Well bonemeal is not gonna gamebreak because without it you can still get a ton of wheat. Minecraft in even survival wasn't made to be a really challenging game. My philosophy is survive then thrive but that really only applies to SSP for me because SMP is a whole other thing unless you play vanilla...
Others have said why would getting instant food affect YOU individually in a bad way? I mean come on, before this snapshot nerf I didn't see ANY boards or topics regarding bonemeal being OP. Let people do their thing in SSP and let people do their thing in SMP. Yes Mojang has said they are still balancing the system because currently it's 7 bonemeal PER crop and I think 2 per tree or mushroom. If you guys check the recent snapshot forums you will see a plethora solutions or compromises for this issue of bonemeal. Personally I see these three I support:
1. Making bonemeal someone harder to craft/get(changing ratio).
2.Only apply the nerf to dispencers or be able to grow with an AoE effect.
3.Tweak the numbers to 2-3 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes while 3 for melon and pumpking stems. 3-6 for saplings and 1-2 for mushrooms.
(4. bonus) Leave the nerf ONLY to Hardcore mode.
Those are the 3 I support though many others I can live with.
This just in: wheat, pumpkins, and melons now only require two or three bonemeal to reach full fruition. Carrots, potatoes, and saplings take two. Wish they'd up that on the trees, and apparently it is a random amount of bonemeal needed. Either two, or three.
This just in: wheat, pumpkins, and melons now only require two or three bonemeal to reach full fruition. Carrots, potatoes, and saplings take two. Wish they'd up that on the trees, and apparently it is a random amount of bonemeal needed. Either two, or three.
Thank GOD they lowered it. And honestly I don't see any sort of logic in trees being less than a plant smaller than Steve.
I mean, they are like 15 or so times as big. (Random number used here, but you get the point)
Might as well have made it take one Bonemeal for all the difference that two or three Bonemeal makes.
And you still didn't answer me before.
I apologize, what was the question? Was it the one about passive farming being over powered? Because the answers lies in the chain of strength and ease the comes with bonemeal insta growing. But I leave the debate at that. I can deal with three bonemeals doing the trick. Compromise achieved!
I apologize, what was the question? Was it the one about passive farming being over powered? Because the answers lies in the chain of strength and ease the comes with bonemeal insta growing.
But regular farming is better, so, therefore, there must be some issue with regular farming if Bonemeal is somehow OP when it is the worse choice.
It's logic.
But I leave the debate at that. I can deal with three bonemeals doing the trick. Compromise achieved!
What is the point of nerfing it to require two/three Bonemeal instead of keeping it at one?
There is none. Pointless nerf. Still practically instant, barely requires any more Bones.
I do wish they would add a wheat block still. I made a mod a hundred years ago that added a bunch of decorative crates to the game, and included a wheat block. It was just like all the other resource blocks; nine wheat to make the block, then it breaks into nine wheat. It would look really neat in the game. I didn't really like the texture I did, but here is an old screenie:
I don't think the nerf thing is a good idea. I like the way how trees are nerfed, but i dont like the way wheats are. Before it was overpowered, but now it's a waste of bone meals. can you make it lesser or something? And its going to be hard to heal and get food in adventure maps than.
Funny, because I thought it was not about time, but about challenge and difficulty.
The fact that you didn't mention it shows that you, contrary to cecil, agree that clicking 7 times isn't anymore difficult than clicking one time, just more time consuming.
And time consuming for something so superfluous (keeping your hunger bar full in a game) means that it is nothing but boring and annoying.
You pretty much said that you want players to be bored, if those are the ones that use bonemeal instead of much faster sources of food like steak and porkchops.
Except you intentionally took what I said out completely out of context. I actually said this:
^This is a null point. It's not about the amount of clicks. It's completely about time.
Bonemeal is instant. If I had enough bones and 1 seed I could make an entire chest full of wheat in about 5 minutes. You can't get a chest full of wheat in 5 minutes with 1 seed by building a normal farm and waiting for it to grow so they can replant again and again until they are able to make a large harvest. You also mentioned having to automate your farm which takes even more time and more resources.
I clearly explained that using bonemeal you can gather wheat much faster and easier than building a normal sized farm that you are able to survive off of. Therefore, it ISabout time and difficulty.
Don't twist my words and try to tell me what I said and didn't say. I communicated what I wanted to say perfectly clear.
I'm not going to enter into a philosophical debate about what constitutes difficulty. Any reasonable person would agree that nerfing bonemeal increases the time it takes you to gather food which is necessary for survival. As a result you are forced to build and maintain an actual farm.
If none of you can admit that food is necessary for survival and that the bonemeal nerf forces you to construct a better farm, which takes time and effort, then we are clearly not going to get anywhere because you are unwilling to face reality.
An actual reasonable person would say that nerfing Bonemeal does not increase the time it takes to gather food, because food is abundant and you can get enough food to survive without Wheat for quite a while on your first day.
An actual reasonable person would also say that nerfing Bonemeal slightly increases the delay until you've got a fully stocked Wheat farm, and then you go and use the rest of your Bonemeal on trees because food isn't an issue and having endless stacks of food won't do you any good when you've got barely any resources otherwise.
I do wish they would add a wheat block still. I made a mod a hundred years ago that added a bunch of decorative crates to the game, and included a wheat block. It was just like all the other resource blocks; nine wheat to make the block, then it breaks into nine wheat. It would look really neat in the game. I didn't really like the texture I did, but here is an old screenie:
Wheat blocks would be so cool.... Especially if it looked like straw. perfect roof for beach house.
Food is only a significant mechanic early game, and I mean VERY early game. Beyond the first couple days, if you suffer from starvation it was your own fault for not bringing enough food with you.
To be honest, I think we need a huge overhaul on food as a mechanic. Right now it is nothing more than an annoyance. All it takes is a couple days and you can have a fully functional wheat farm and a pen of animals that get more action than porn stars. On my 2-player server I've been doing with my uncle, we've got chests FULL of food scattered everywhere. One harvest is enough to fill half a chest; and we don't even go near our animal farm without muting our sound. The thing is, we've spent a vast majority of that time mining and building - it only took us the first day we were playing to set everything up, including (what was then) a makeshift shelter.
We're playing on Hard, and we had 1 death to starvation - only caused by the fact that I went out exploring and misjudged how far I intended to go (and brought no food with me).
I want to see hunger removed, or food potency and/or supply drastically nerfed. The problem with Minecraft has always been how fast supplies skyrocket. Renewable resource count rises exponentially, and the time it takes to actually mature and harvest them is a bit of a joke. Also keep in mind that your hunger does not deplete when you are idle. If you were desperate to prevent dying, it would take nothing more than a few minutes to find a couple seeds, plant your wheat, walk into your dirt shelter and afk while the crops grow. The only issue then is having the patience to do something else while you wait.
In my opinion, the issue is less that bone meal is OP, and more that food is not an interesting mechanic. A bonemeal nerf is only going to have any effect extremely early-game (which, is unlikely you will find bones that early on anyway unless you go hunting after the sun comes out), and the people who are incredibly bad at planning and preparation and forget to bring a stack of food with them.
This is a sandbox not foodcraft. I don't think Mojang should dive too much into the food mechanics. I mean it's nice having farms and animals just because it's fun. If ya really want a something cool with food using a mod would be good.
An actual reasonable person would say that nerfing Bonemeal does not increase the time it takes to gather food, because food is abundant and you can get enough food to survive without Wheat for quite a while on your first day.
An actual reasonable person would also say that nerfing Bonemeal slightly increases the delay until you've got a fully stocked Wheat farm, and then you go and use the rest of your Bonemeal on trees because food isn't an issue and having endless stacks of food won't do you any good when you've got barely any resources otherwise.
Ya know what. I'm done with this entire conversation. I made my point. Bonemeal has been nerfed and it will never return to what it originally was. The vast majority of players agree with the nerf and are happy with the new balancing. Just like the "Nether Water," and the "New Bookshelves," I gotta say I called it bang on!
Way to go Mojang by not listening to the cry babies who don't want any level of difficulty. The reasonable members of this community who supported the change thank you!
you can still insta grow crops with bonemeal - you just have to click it 7 times now, instead of once. if clicking 7 times is too much for you, there are already automatic wheat farm tutorials out there that have dispensers that hit the wheat with 7 bonemeal off of one button push.
you know that isnt the point but just realize that your post was halarious XD
Everyone seems to agree that gathering a supply food is essentially a non-issue even without the use of bonemeal. The battle cry from supporters has been predominantly that it makes the game more "challenging" but gathering food was never a challenge.
On both sides I have seen people argue "bonemeal really doesn't effect anything so why do you care"
When the same point is being made by supporters and detractors it suggests to me that the change is superficial at best.
What I really want to understand is more about the idiological devide.
Why people are so wound up about something that supposedly doesn't effect them?
Why does it the simple idea that someone is playing differntly when it has no effect on their game make them so defensive? Is there really a wrong way to play a sandbox game?
Hell someone in another thread was complaining that the new "ability" to sprint up stairs should drain your stamina even faster than normal sprinting...... Why can't people just enjoy things?
Funny, because I thought it was not about time, but about challenge and difficulty.
The fact that you didn't mention it shows that you, contrary to cecil, agree that clicking 7 times isn't anymore difficult than clicking one time, just more time consuming.
And time consuming for something so superfluous (keeping your hunger bar full in a game) means that it is nothing but boring and annoying.
You pretty much said that you want players to be bored, if those are the ones that use bonemeal instead of much faster sources of food like steak and porkchops.
By the way, you just proved that you guys want to FORCE your ways of playing into others. What you think is the right and difficult way (which is not, only annoying) and everyone SHOULD play. The OP was not wrong when he said that you guys are controlling.
"IF YOU HAD ENOUGH BONES"... you seem to conveniently forget that bonemeal is result of a dangerous mob, and you cannot have bonemeal for days in a regular scenario (not a skeleton farm, which is an endgame thing) unless you take great risks at night fighting mobs.
Bonemeal doesn't fall from the sky and can't be dupped. It's result of a risky activity and therefore was already balanced.
There is only case where bonemeal is useful, the starter days, you have to risk yourself to get it.
None of you guys "pro-nerf" presented a single valid argument against the fact that bonemeal is completely useless once you are past the first few days and have a farm and spend enough of your time doing other things that allow wheat to grow naturally (and probably have iron armor).
So you guys definition of "difficult" is actually staring at a couple wheat inside your dirt house for dozens of minutes because going outside to fight skeletons with stone swords to get bones to speed up the process is "too fast" (as it is the time that matters here, not the challenge right?)
To me looks like Dinnerbone wanted to make dispensers grow crops but thought that it was too unbalanced, and therefore made this stupid change that also affected hand-grown crops. I can only hope that they keep the change for dispensers, but reverse it for players.
Because the way it is now, hand used bonemeal will NEVER be used again for wheat. NEVER.... With plenty of other easier food sources (remember cocoa beans readily available on jungles?) nobody will be staring at freaking digital wheat.
EDIT: I completely agree with your suggestion, so let me make this clear:
Lol, still using this failed argument that bonemeal somehow makes you anywhere closer to enchanting? How cute!
Punching wood leads to bookshelves that lead to enchanting too!!
Let's remove punching wood altogether...! Players should have to grind gravel for flint and grind leaves for twigs and kill spiders for string so he can make one of these:
Because you know, Punching wood is too OP.
Damn those wood punchers who are getting to end-game content too fast and are not getting bored grinding for flint!!
EDIT: Ow wait, just saw that you already said that with your own words:
So yeah, let's make gathering wood more annoying, because according to you guys, annoying is synonym of dificult!
On lots of SMP servers like the two I've been on there are public farms. Especially if there is towny or something.
So what if a in PvP servers some faction finds a skelly spawner. That doesn't really give a big edge to getting food since if you have a good sized farm it like Mackinz said then it wouldn't really matter. Also finding spawners has some luck factor into it which is fair. Also if the pvp server has a donating system where they get free spawners then that's a whole other issue right there.
Lots of you honestly think that with bonemeal it affects everything because it will affect wheat which is "THE KEY to everything" as Cecil and others may have implied. Well bonemeal is not gonna gamebreak because without it you can still get a ton of wheat. Minecraft in even survival wasn't made to be a really challenging game. My philosophy is survive then thrive but that really only applies to SSP for me because SMP is a whole other thing unless you play vanilla...
Others have said why would getting instant food affect YOU individually in a bad way? I mean come on, before this snapshot nerf I didn't see ANY boards or topics regarding bonemeal being OP. Let people do their thing in SSP and let people do their thing in SMP. Yes Mojang has said they are still balancing the system because currently it's 7 bonemeal PER crop and I think 2 per tree or mushroom. If you guys check the recent snapshot forums you will see a plethora solutions or compromises for this issue of bonemeal. Personally I see these three I support:
1. Making bonemeal someone harder to craft/get(changing ratio).
2.Only apply the nerf to dispencers or be able to grow with an AoE effect.
3.Tweak the numbers to 2-3 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes while 3 for melon and pumpking stems. 3-6 for saplings and 1-2 for mushrooms.
(4. bonus) Leave the nerf ONLY to Hardcore mode.
Those are the 3 I support though many others I can live with.
And you still didn't answer me before.
Thank GOD they lowered it. And honestly I don't see any sort of logic in trees being less than a plant smaller than Steve.
I mean, they are like 15 or so times as big. (Random number used here, but you get the point)
I apologize, what was the question? Was it the one about passive farming being over powered? Because the answers lies in the chain of strength and ease the comes with bonemeal insta growing. But I leave the debate at that. I can deal with three bonemeals doing the trick. Compromise achieved!
It's logic.
What is the point of nerfing it to require two/three Bonemeal instead of keeping it at one?
There is none. Pointless nerf. Still practically instant, barely requires any more Bones.
Except you intentionally took what I said out completely out of context. I actually said this:
I clearly explained that using bonemeal you can gather wheat much faster and easier than building a normal sized farm that you are able to survive off of. Therefore, it IS about time and difficulty.
Don't twist my words and try to tell me what I said and didn't say. I communicated what I wanted to say perfectly clear.
Also you clearly don't read either:
Nice try.
An actual reasonable person would also say that nerfing Bonemeal slightly increases the delay until you've got a fully stocked Wheat farm, and then you go and use the rest of your Bonemeal on trees because food isn't an issue and having endless stacks of food won't do you any good when you've got barely any resources otherwise.
Wheat blocks would be so cool.... Especially if it looked like straw. perfect roof for beach house.
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Curse PremiumTo be honest, I think we need a huge overhaul on food as a mechanic. Right now it is nothing more than an annoyance. All it takes is a couple days and you can have a fully functional wheat farm and a pen of animals that get more action than porn stars. On my 2-player server I've been doing with my uncle, we've got chests FULL of food scattered everywhere. One harvest is enough to fill half a chest; and we don't even go near our animal farm without muting our sound. The thing is, we've spent a vast majority of that time mining and building - it only took us the first day we were playing to set everything up, including (what was then) a makeshift shelter.
We're playing on Hard, and we had 1 death to starvation - only caused by the fact that I went out exploring and misjudged how far I intended to go (and brought no food with me).
I want to see hunger removed, or food potency and/or supply drastically nerfed. The problem with Minecraft has always been how fast supplies skyrocket. Renewable resource count rises exponentially, and the time it takes to actually mature and harvest them is a bit of a joke. Also keep in mind that your hunger does not deplete when you are idle. If you were desperate to prevent dying, it would take nothing more than a few minutes to find a couple seeds, plant your wheat, walk into your dirt shelter and afk while the crops grow. The only issue then is having the patience to do something else while you wait.
In my opinion, the issue is less that bone meal is OP, and more that food is not an interesting mechanic. A bonemeal nerf is only going to have any effect extremely early-game (which, is unlikely you will find bones that early on anyway unless you go hunting after the sun comes out), and the people who are incredibly bad at planning and preparation and forget to bring a stack of food with them.
Ya know what. I'm done with this entire conversation. I made my point. Bonemeal has been nerfed and it will never return to what it originally was. The vast majority of players agree with the nerf and are happy with the new balancing. Just like the "Nether Water," and the "New Bookshelves," I gotta say I called it bang on!
Way to go Mojang by not listening to the cry babies who don't want any level of difficulty. The reasonable members of this community who supported the change thank you!
Mojang, great job on the balancing as well!
you know that isnt the point but just realize that your post was halarious XD
Everyone seems to agree that gathering a supply food is essentially a non-issue even without the use of bonemeal. The battle cry from supporters has been predominantly that it makes the game more "challenging" but gathering food was never a challenge.
On both sides I have seen people argue "bonemeal really doesn't effect anything so why do you care"
When the same point is being made by supporters and detractors it suggests to me that the change is superficial at best.
What I really want to understand is more about the idiological devide.
Why people are so wound up about something that supposedly doesn't effect them?
Why does it the simple idea that someone is playing differntly when it has no effect on their game make them so defensive? Is there really a wrong way to play a sandbox game?
Hell someone in another thread was complaining that the new "ability" to sprint up stairs should drain your stamina even faster than normal sprinting...... Why can't people just enjoy things?
Peaceful/easy modes: 1 bonemeal for a full crop/tree growth
Normal: 2-3 bonemeals
Hard: 3-5 bonemeals
Hardcore: 7 bonemeal
Or if they changed the crafting:
Peaceful/easy modes: 1 bone => 3 bonemeal
Normal: 1 bone => 2 bonemeal
Hard/Hardcore: 1 bone => 1 bonemeal (or limit bonemeal as dye)
I thought the point of difficulty was to make the world more likely to kill you, not to make items less useful?...