I tend to agree with redstoneevet90 the 1:1 bonemeal and zombie flesh thing sounds like a decent comprimize. Even if I don't really see there ever having been a problem in the first place. Bonus points if bonemeal alone effects an area to increase the speed a crop grows over time with the application of SPARKLES!
I tend to agree with redstoneevet90 the 1:1 bonemeal and zombie flesh thing sounds like a decent comprimize. Even if I don't really see there ever having been a problem in the first place. Bonus points if bonemeal alone effects an area to increase the speed a crop grows over time with the application of SPARKLES!
I tend to agree with redstoneevet90 the 1:1 bonemeal and zombie flesh thing sounds like a decent comprimize. Even if I don't really see there ever having been a problem in the first place. Bonus points if bonemeal alone effects an area to increase the speed a crop grows over time with the application of SPARKLES!
Wait he actually said that? I thought redstoneevet didn't like compromises :o. Cool lol.I used tekkit in my post because people kept saying it made the game all about sitting and watching diamonds fall from a machine? Eh I'm not industrial
Gee, excuse me for wanting more tiers of better equipment. Also, do you think this nerf or even this game really affects the "addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people?" It doesn't. Time wasters like Minecraft should be interesting, if you don't want to do things the easiest, fastest, and best way possible in real life, that's your choice. Time to place blocks? Good luck building anything. Crops take time to grow, but don't you think this nerf is a little extreme? 7 for wheat, 2 for a giant jungle tree. Patience is great but it doesn't mean doing things slowly for no reason.
I agree with that post except for a citation on something: Mojang claimed that they are still balancing the nerf but I personally think that it should be original bonemeal or 2 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes and 3 cycles for melon and pumpking stems and 2-4 cycles for trees and 1 bonemeal for mushrooms.
A tree should be more than 1 block plants (crops) and mushrooms should DEFINITELY be more than one, since 2 bone meal can easily feed a person for days (I always thought THIS was op, not with wheat.)
Good sir, I apologize for that portion of my post seeming to be a response to the quote from you. It was directed squarely at Sir Mumbles and surely came off overly-aggressive if you thought it was directed at you.
Completely disregarded an answer to your question, assuming because you didn't like it. (The question about what my grievance was)
It must not have been obvious to me.
Dispensers WOULD actually make sense if you think of it this way : By hand you work it into the soil, for more effect. A dispenser would shoot it onto the surface, meaning while having a mild effect, it would be less useful than working it in by hand.
"Can be explained logically when compared to the real world" does not mean "Good balanced game design". I don't think it "makes sense" to instantly grow trees, but I don't think that's a good supporting detail for why it needs adjusted.
Also a reason for supporting something SHOULD matter. As it shows if there's a good reason / need for it. Otherwise its just another suggestion.
I support dispensers being able to use bonemeal. I have no preference for either side of this particular debate. And to be fair, "Remove/change this new functionality" is a suggestion while "Good update!" is completely not a suggestion.
Supporters reasoning has been as followed (from what I've seen so far)
*Unrealistic
*Starting off players should be forced to work harder to earn the right to not starve to death
*It makes farming unrewarding (Although I say this is debatable at best)
*Dispensers would make mass / giant production of food too easy (Again, debatable, since having a massive storage of food provides an advantage only in the MASSIVELY long term) *Encourages new farming designs, especially combined with the dispenser functionality. *Makes fast-growing a new crop for the first time more of a trade-off *Each killed skeleton doesn't equal 6-12 potatoes *Sparkly particle effect *The dark side has cookies
Opposition reasoning has been as followed
*Changes a life saving convenience to an item at 1/7th the current worth (The 1.4.7 worth is insanely low, mind you)
Perhaps it was never meant to be a life saver? The worth is insanely low? You just described it as a life-saving convenience. Same sentence.
*Makes life harder for new spawns, be it in new worlds, servers (Which often times do NOT have animals around due to mass slaughtering) or anything else. Only delays the "real" adventure by dragging out the start by another day or so, in an annoying fashion.
Personally I embrace changes like this. Getting started is one of the hardest parts of the game because going from nothing to something is harder than going from little to more. Doesn't make the point less valid, but it doesn't bother me.
*Although we can understand the bits of aesthetics, or wanting more challenge, this can currently be achieved by the OPTION of ignoring bone meal. Where as if this IS implemented, everyone who does not enjoy the change will be forced to "deal with it", with no option.
I think this has been said about every update ever. The same applies in reverse - just stop updating minecraft or use a mod.
If you think it's next to useless, then think it's next to useless - just say there's no need to balance the dispensers separately if it's still useless. I already explained to you that having the same item perform the same purpose at lower efficiency just means people are more encouraged to use it by hand and the new functionality will go by the wayside.
*This decreases the possible places to survive, since bone meal has often been the thing to allow those to get their first food in harsh areas.
Why are we still talking about bonemeal as "first food"? If you're good enough to kill a skeleton, you're good enough to kill a zombie or find some food another way.
Again, I hardly care. It makes you think, should I fully grow two potato plants or half-grow four? To me it's just one more part of Minecraft. I could live with or without the change. Your points are fairly well made, but it all amounts to comparing post-change to pre-change and subjectively forming an opinion about it. The thing about opinions is that while these are all great reasons to support not changing it, most of the reasons you've presented to me make me say "Bring it on!" instead of "Oh no, my way of life!"
You may think these are bad things; I do not. We don't see eye to eye on this issue and I don't believe we can. At least now I understand your angle and I can leave this topic in peace having said this:
Thank you for explaining your viewpoint and I hope next time we are on the same side.
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But the option to get a lot of wheat for trading and breeding in a short amount of time has decreased dramatically.
In a short amount of time?
Plant a farm, come back in an hour.
Short amount of time, and you've likely gotten something more important done than few trades or breeding, and neither of those are even that important.
Mumble what? You're now supporting the nerf? Also mushrooms are not a viable source of food because mushroom stew doesn't stack.
Eh I would argue that they are viable, of course I usually set up underground mushroom farms throughout my builds to keep a steady supply of mushrooms in case I need to make soup. As for giant mushrooms I have found them to be prohibitively dificult to grow since Mojang changed it so you essentially have to grow them underground.
Of course even when you could grow them above ground I usually only used them to make cool redmushroom houses when I went out exploring >.>
Short amount of time, and you've likely gotten something more important done than few trades or breeding, and neither of those are even that important.
Important is relative to personal goals.
Letting a farm mature to harvest naturally isn't an issue, unless you need to go far away to work on something else. When your farm chunks unload, the crops stop growing.
Eh I would argue that they are viable, of course I usually set up underground mushroom farms throughout my builds to keep a steady supply of mushrooms in case I need to make soup. As for giant mushrooms I have found them to be prohibitively dificult to grow since Mojang changed it so you essentially have to grow them underground.
Of course even when you could grow them above ground I usually only used them to make cool redmushroom houses when I went out exploring >.>
Nah, just pillar up 7 blocks then build out two blocks (5x5 blocks 7 blocks off the ground) (or was it three?). Remove the central pillar and place your mushroom there and as long as you're in low enough light (ie night) it should work. More effort, yes, but prohibitively difficult? No way!
Also, silk touch for mycelium is a pretty nice way to achieve it... though a bit of a rarity.
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If your personal goals to breed a ton of Cows or to use the crappy trading system to eventually get a bunch of Emeralds, then you have a few choices in the matter, and, of the two, passive farming is better than staring and spamming Bonemeal because you can actually get other things done in the meantime.
Or you can use that Wheat you've already built up in the past.
Letting a farm mature to harvest naturally isn't an issue, unless you need to go far away to work on something else. When your farm chunks unload, the crops stop growing.
Then do things nearby your farm. There's thousands of things you could do, including go mining.
If your personal goals to breed a ton of Cows or to use the crappy trading system to eventually get a bunch of Emeralds, then you have a few choices in the matter, and, of the two, passive farming is better than staring and spamming Bonemeal because you can actually get other things done in the meantime.
Then do things nearby your farm. There's thousands of things you could do, including go mining.
I totally agree that passive farming is best because of the time allowed to do other things. Just making some points about things.
By the way; has anyone in this thread played around with farming with bonemeal yet? I was just in creative mode messing with some stuff and I noticed two things: you don't have to right click multiple times to grow the wheat, you can just hold right click. The second thing is that if your particles are off, then watching the plants grow is super cool looking. It looks cool with the particle effect, but without the effects then it just looks like an animation.
Perhaps it was never meant to be a life saver? The worth is insanely low? You just described it as a life-saving convenience. Same sentence.
This exact same argument could be said for : Rotten flesh, and dirt huts. Does this mean you value either?
Oh the guy who asked, I support the nerf for trees, giant shrooms (Even if bowls don't stack, its STILL food. This doesnt change the fact 2 bone meals gets you 15 or so bowls of soup.) and possibly STEM plants. Wheat however needs 3 to make anything useful, and if the argument is breeding, make BREEDING harder, so it will effect people who have farms too instead of just new spawns.
Nah, just pillar up 7 blocks then build out two blocks (5x5 blocks 7 blocks off the ground) (or was it three?). Remove the central pillar and place your mushroom there and as long as you're in low enough light (ie night) it should work. More effort, yes, but prohibitively difficult? No way!
Also, silk touch for mycelium is a pretty nice way to achieve it... though a bit of a rarity.
Hmm didn't know there was still a way to grow them outside, good to know
Think I have only ever found a single mushroom biom in a world long since deleted so no mycelium for me
heard horror stories about that stuff spreading tho, with my luck I'd manage to doom my whole world if I ever did find any again.
No worries about the earlier misunderstanding, its the nature of the internet and I would also like to apogize.
This exact same argument could be said for : Rotten flesh, and dirt huts. Does this mean you value either?
Oh the guy who asked, I support the nerf for trees, giant shrooms (Even if bowls don't stack, its STILL food. This doesnt change the fact 2 bone meals gets you 15 or so bowls of soup.) and possibly STEM plants. Wheat however needs 3 to make anything useful, and if the argument is breeding, make BREEDING harder, so it will effect people who have farms too instead of just new spawns.
I thought that one of the points we all agreed on is that food is not difficult to find during a new spawn? If you still think that it is hard to find food then you are ignoring all potential gameplay elements and that doesn't make for a healthy discussion.
Hmm didn't know there was still a way to grow them outside, good to know
Think I have only ever found a single mushroom biom in a world long since deleted so no mycelium for me
heard horror stories about that stuff spreading tho, with my luck I'd manage to doom my whole world if I ever did find any again.
No worries about the earlier misunderstanding, its the nature of the internet and I would also like to apogize.
I thought that one of the points we all agreed on is that food is not difficult to find during a new spawn? If you still think that it is hard to find food then you are ignoring all potential gameplay elements and that doesn't make for a healthy discussion.
Point I've been making is it crushes a certain play style, and makes certain situations unsurvivable without really adding much.
Eh I would argue that they are viable, of course I usually set up underground mushroom farms throughout my builds to keep a steady supply of mushrooms in case I need to make soup. As for giant mushrooms I have found them to be prohibitively dificult to grow since Mojang changed it so you essentially have to grow them underground.
Of course even when you could grow them above ground I usually only used them to make cool redmushroom houses when I went out exploring >.>
Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Not one retort has addressed the chain of uses wheat has other than food. So sure, food can be easy to get, but that doesn't stop the need for wheat. All a player needs for their huge ship sails is one tilled soil block, one seed, and bonemeal. All a player needs for enchanting books for emerald trading is one tilled soil block, one seed, a little XP, and bonemeal.
Why not make those processes harder to Lies. Wheat leads to breeding which leads to enchanting, a fleet of rideable pigs, and massive amounts of wool. Even for players with an endless amount of food wheat can be important to fighting, building, and exploring.
Not one retort has addressed the chain of uses wheat has other than food. So sure, food can be easy to get, but that doesn't stop the need for wheat. All a player needs for their huge ship sails is one tilled soil block, one seed, and bonemeal. All a player needs for enchanting books for emerald trading is one tilled soil block, one seed, a little XP, and bonemeal.
Why not make those processes harder to accomplish?
This argument is still challenge versus "why fix what isn't broken." Which is a poor point of debate.
Yet again, you claim that "bonemeal is the key to everything." You fail to agnowledge that you can't build an empire out of wheat. The last time I checked, bonemeal didn't mine obsidian for you. You can't make an enchanting table or an anvil out of wheat.
How can you hate Tekkit? it has Turtles!
I tend to agree with redstoneevet90 the 1:1 bonemeal and zombie flesh thing sounds like a decent comprimize. Even if I don't really see there ever having been a problem in the first place. Bonus points if bonemeal alone effects an area to increase the speed a crop grows over time with the application of SPARKLES!
Wait he actually said that? I thought redstoneevet didn't like compromises :o. Cool lol.I used tekkit in my post because people kept saying it made the game all about sitting and watching diamonds fall from a machine? Eh I'm not industrial
I agree with that post except for a citation on something: Mojang claimed that they are still balancing the nerf but I personally think that it should be original bonemeal or 2 cycles of bonemeal for wheat, carrots, potatoes and 3 cycles for melon and pumpking stems and 2-4 cycles for trees and 1 bonemeal for mushrooms.
Good sir, I apologize for that portion of my post seeming to be a response to the quote from you. It was directed squarely at Sir Mumbles and surely came off overly-aggressive if you thought it was directed at you.
It must not have been obvious to me.
"Can be explained logically when compared to the real world" does not mean "Good balanced game design". I don't think it "makes sense" to instantly grow trees, but I don't think that's a good supporting detail for why it needs adjusted.
I support dispensers being able to use bonemeal. I have no preference for either side of this particular debate. And to be fair, "Remove/change this new functionality" is a suggestion while "Good update!" is completely not a suggestion.
Perhaps it was never meant to be a life saver? The worth is insanely low? You just described it as a life-saving convenience. Same sentence.
Personally I embrace changes like this. Getting started is one of the hardest parts of the game because going from nothing to something is harder than going from little to more. Doesn't make the point less valid, but it doesn't bother me.
I think this has been said about every update ever. The same applies in reverse - just stop updating minecraft or use a mod.
If you think it's next to useless, then think it's next to useless - just say there's no need to balance the dispensers separately if it's still useless. I already explained to you that having the same item perform the same purpose at lower efficiency just means people are more encouraged to use it by hand and the new functionality will go by the wayside.
Why are we still talking about bonemeal as "first food"? If you're good enough to kill a skeleton, you're good enough to kill a zombie or find some food another way.
Again, I hardly care. It makes you think, should I fully grow two potato plants or half-grow four? To me it's just one more part of Minecraft. I could live with or without the change. Your points are fairly well made, but it all amounts to comparing post-change to pre-change and subjectively forming an opinion about it. The thing about opinions is that while these are all great reasons to support not changing it, most of the reasons you've presented to me make me say "Bring it on!" instead of "Oh no, my way of life!"
You may think these are bad things; I do not. We don't see eye to eye on this issue and I don't believe we can. At least now I understand your angle and I can leave this topic in peace having said this:
Thank you for explaining your viewpoint and I hope next time we are on the same side.
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Plant a farm, come back in an hour.
Short amount of time, and you've likely gotten something more important done than few trades or breeding, and neither of those are even that important.
Eh I would argue that they are viable, of course I usually set up underground mushroom farms throughout my builds to keep a steady supply of mushrooms in case I need to make soup. As for giant mushrooms I have found them to be prohibitively dificult to grow since Mojang changed it so you essentially have to grow them underground.
Of course even when you could grow them above ground I usually only used them to make cool redmushroom houses when I went out exploring >.>
Important is relative to personal goals.
Letting a farm mature to harvest naturally isn't an issue, unless you need to go far away to work on something else. When your farm chunks unload, the crops stop growing.
Then we agree.
Also, silk touch for mycelium is a pretty nice way to achieve it... though a bit of a rarity.
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Or you can use that Wheat you've already built up in the past.
Then do things nearby your farm. There's thousands of things you could do, including go mining.
I totally agree that passive farming is best because of the time allowed to do other things. Just making some points about things.
By the way; has anyone in this thread played around with farming with bonemeal yet? I was just in creative mode messing with some stuff and I noticed two things: you don't have to right click multiple times to grow the wheat, you can just hold right click. The second thing is that if your particles are off, then watching the plants grow is super cool looking. It looks cool with the particle effect, but without the effects then it just looks like an animation.
This exact same argument could be said for : Rotten flesh, and dirt huts. Does this mean you value either?
Oh the guy who asked, I support the nerf for trees, giant shrooms (Even if bowls don't stack, its STILL food. This doesnt change the fact 2 bone meals gets you 15 or so bowls of soup.) and possibly STEM plants. Wheat however needs 3 to make anything useful, and if the argument is breeding, make BREEDING harder, so it will effect people who have farms too instead of just new spawns.
Hmm didn't know there was still a way to grow them outside, good to know
Think I have only ever found a single mushroom biom in a world long since deleted so no mycelium for me
heard horror stories about that stuff spreading tho, with my luck I'd manage to doom my whole world if I ever did find any again.
No worries about the earlier misunderstanding, its the nature of the internet and I would also like to apogize.
I thought that one of the points we all agreed on is that food is not difficult to find during a new spawn? If you still think that it is hard to find food then you are ignoring all potential gameplay elements and that doesn't make for a healthy discussion.
For more information about growing mushroom houses, this: http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1115066-124-how-to-for-mushroom-houses/
All it adds is something that "looks neat".
Need : Bucket of water, mushroom, bonemeal, space
Dig one deep hole 1x1
Put water
plant mushroom
bonemeal
Yet again, you claim that "bonemeal is the key to everything." You fail to agnowledge that you can't build an empire out of wheat. The last time I checked, bonemeal didn't mine obsidian for you. You can't make an enchanting table or an anvil out of wheat.
This kind of logic would only make sense if you felt that farming regardless was OP, which your actions thus far would imply.