Once again, Bonemeal was never overpowered when it came to its use. If you still believe that, then you've been ignoring the blatantly obvious and wishing that surviving in vanilla Minecraft was a challenge, instead of playing the game.
It's interesting how many people are suddenly decrying how overpowered bonemeal is now that it has been nerfed.
I really don't think there was too much of a problem with it. Killing skeletons early on is difficult and dangerous, and the only time bonemeal is really important (early game) is exactly when it's difficult to do so.
Once again, Bonemeal was never overpowered when it came to its use. If you still believe that, then you've been ignoring the blatantly obvious and wishing that surviving in vanilla Minecraft was a challenge, instead of playing the game.
Playing survival mode should involve some actual surviving.
It's interesting how many people are suddenly decrying how overpowered bonemeal is now that it has been nerfed.
I really don't think there was too much of a problem with it. Killing skeletons early on is difficult and dangerous, and the only time bonemeal is really important (early game) is exactly when it's difficult to do so.
If you don't sleep in a bed at night then walk around where you stayed you can find bones, arrows, and rotten flesh on the ground.
Thank you so much. That's pretty much what I am all about. Optional things shouldn't be applied to things like this.
I like that minecraft has so many optional gameplay elements, but I feel all games need to have some definable, abject rules. Take an open ended game like Dungeons And Dragons. Anyone with half of a decent imagine could make up stories about heroes going on adventures. Thats all D&D is; adventuring out loud with your buddies. It is an open ended world where you can do whatever you want. Without the rules, and the challenge, the game means nothing.
If you don't sleep in a bed at night then walk around where you stayed you can find bones, arrows, and rotten flesh on the ground.
In that time, you could've planted some crops.
Certainly, bonemeal gives you an edge, but it barely reduces the difficulty whatsoever. It's far simpler to kill a cow or two, which can sustain you until you get a proper wheat farm going.
Certainly, bonemeal gives you an edge, but it barely reduces the difficulty whatsoever. It's far simpler to kill a cow or two, which can sustain you until you get a proper wheat farm going.
I agree, the first few nights can be spent punching up animals to get you by. But I stand by the idea that bonemeal leads to bigger and better things. If you can bonemeal up a bunch of wheat, then breed a bunch of cows in a short time you can then make all the books you need to enchant your tools very quick. Nerfing the bonemeal was probably introduced to slow that process. Not to mention books are enchantable now, they have an even greater value. Why not make it harder to get them?
A lot of players clamor for higher difficulties in the game, but they ask for new mob bosses, smarter AI, and a host of other suggestions related to new content. Why not get the same difficulties by changing what we already have? The ender dragon is a cakewalk if you go to the end super saiyaned out with enchanted gear. But if you have to work harder to get those enchantments, and play smarter, then the game is more challenging.
I like that minecraft has so many optional gameplay elements, but I feel all games need to have some definable, abject rules.
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It was fine before where you weren't just handed bones.Cecil books aren't that efficient for enchanting tools especially in SSP where mega xp farms aren't that common in vanilla.You also seem to think wheat is the key to everything and that bonemeal was oh so game breaking.
I like that minecraft has so many optional gameplay elements, but I feel all games need to have some definable, abject rules.
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It was fine before where you weren't just handed bones.
I never thought or said, anywhere, that bonemeal was fine at insta-grow. Please stop using that as a vehicle to move your opinion. I have said dozens of times that the game should involve more difficulty. Long before the bonemeal nerf.
Cecil here is another compromise: 2 cycles of bonemeal for Wheat, Carrots, Potatoes while 3 bonemeal for melon and pumpkin stems. 2-4 for trees and mushrooms 1 since they aren't really of use. That seems fair enough and if it isn't then I don't know what is. The nerf was made mostly due to recent dispenser changes. If it was too op they would have nerfed it a long time ago. People haven't been voicing bonemeal as OP that much till now so yeah.
I never thought or said, anywhere, that bonemeal was fine at insta-grow. Please stop using that as a vehicle to move your opinion. I have said dozens of times that the game should involve more difficulty. Long before the bonemeal nerf.
So are you saying bonemeal nerf isn't a good way to increase difficulty? Well I agree with that
Cecil here is another compromise: 2 cycles of bonemeal for Wheat, Carrots, Potatoes while 3 bonemeal for melon and pumpkin stems. 2-4 for trees and mushrooms 1 since they aren't really of use. That seems fair enough and if it isn't then I don't know what is. The nerf was made mostly due to recent dispenser changes. If it was too op they would have nerfed it a long time ago. People haven't been voicing bonemeal as OP that much till now so yeah.
That isn't a well thought out compromise. Wheat has eight stages including the stage where you plant it. So reducing it to four bonemeal would be decent. Carrots and potatoes only have four stages to begin with, bonemeal shouldn't even work on them. Melons and pumpkins, once the stem is mature, will grow extremely fast. No bonemeal needed there either. I agree on trees, but mushrooms should at least be equivocal to trees. They are a mildly easy way to get mushrooms, not to mention they look so very good as villager houses in jungle biomes.
So are you saying bonemeal nerf isn't a good way to increase difficulty? Well I agree with that
This is a clever, but wrong, way of spinning my words. No I am not saying that, but well played!
I agree, the first few nights can be spent punching up animals to get you by. But I stand by the idea that bonemeal leads to bigger and better things. If you can bonemeal up a bunch of wheat, then breed a bunch of cows in a short time you can then make all the books you need to enchant your tools very quick. Nerfing the bonemeal was probably introduced to slow that process. Not to mention books are enchantable now, they have an even greater value. Why not make it harder to get them?
A lot of players clamor for higher difficulties in the game, but they ask for new mob bosses, smarter AI, and a host of other suggestions related to new content. Why not get the same difficulties by changing what we already have? The ender dragon is a cakewalk if you go to the end super saiyaned out with enchanted gear. But if you have to work harder to get those enchantments, and play smarter, then the game is more challenging.
The way I see it, bonemeal is a linear process. It works at a mostly constant rate. You can only kill so many skeletons and whatnot. Farming is an exponential process. One plant leads to two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, and so forth.
At first, bonemeal seems like the best option. Over time, though, plain old farming becomes more powerful.
Bottom line, bonemeal is only tangentially related to difficulty for a short period of time. If you want to make the game harder, I would focus on core problems like the power of armor and the simplicity of mob AI.
The way I see it, bonemeal is a linear process. It works at a mostly constant rate. You can only kill so many skeletons and whatnot. Farming is an exponential process. One plant leads to two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, and so forth.
At first, bonemeal seems like the best option. Over time, though, plain old farming becomes more powerful.
I disagree. Bonemeal is more useful than a large farm.
Once a farm gets to be so large it is unmanageable without a great deal of effort and you still have to wait for it to grow. It's definetly not more powerful than bonemeal and a 1 block wheat farm where you can just spam instant wheat over and over in a very short period of time.
Just look at Cecil's chest of bonemeal and imagine 1 wheat for for every bonemeal. I often have chests full of stacks and stacks of 64 bones.
The way I see it, bonemeal is a linear process. It works at a mostly constant rate. You can only kill so many skeletons and whatnot. Farming is an exponential process. One plant leads to two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, and so forth.
At first, bonemeal seems like the best option. Over time, though, plain old farming becomes more powerful.
Bottom line, bonemeal is only tangentially related to difficulty for a short period of time. If you want to make the game harder, I would focus on core problems like the power of armor and the simplicity of mob AI.
I am somewhat inclined to agree with this. I don't bonemeal my wheat now because the natural pace is enough to keep me fed. But I wouldn't say fighting skeletons to get a ton of bonemeal is out of the question. Ever try to get all the music discs? I did, and this happened:
And I still am missing one disc.
I also spent some time bonemealing my wheat, breeding cows, and making a retarded amount of enchanted books to trade with a villager for an equally retarded amount of emeralds. It was too easy. I fully support the nerf.
The OP clearly shows the addiction to instant gratification that afflicts a growing number of people. It is so evident in the Minecraft. Faster mining. Faster pickaxes. Instant crops. Quicker furnaces. More storage. I think people should slow down and be patient. Crops take time to grow.
Playing survival mode should involve some actual surviving.
It does. However, not being required to be entirely concerned about survival is beneficial to the entire point that the game is supposed to be a sandbox in which you are free to do whatever you would like to do.
Not having to worry about food is part of that, and you don't have to worry about food even if Bonemeal is nerfed (except in specific scenarios which I've already listed),
It does. However, not being required to be entirely concerned about survival is beneficial to the entire point that the game is supposed to be a sandbox in which you are free to do whatever you would like to do.
Not having to worry about food is part of that, and you don't have to worry about food even if Bonemeal is nerfed (except in specific scenarios which I've already listed),
Please, please, please explain to me why hunger should even be a part of survival mode if it should be something we shouldn't have to worry about?
Please, please, please explain to me why hunger should even be a part of survival mode if it should be something we shouldn't have to worry about?
To encourage exploration that would otherwise be punished if Minecraft were still using the old food = instant health system.
Among other reasons.
Difficulty in vanilla survival isn't a reason. Otherwise, they would not have made food ridiculously abundant in the same update they added the hunger system.
To encourage exploration that would otherwise be punished if Minecraft were still using the old food = instant health system.
Among other reasons.
Difficulty in vanilla survival isn't a reason. Otherwise, they would not have made food ridiculously abundant in the same update they added the hunger system.
How does food equal exploration? You don't need to explore far to find two cows to breed. I feel as if the only way exploration is encouraged in the realm of food is to find carrots and potatoes. Which drop from zombies anyways.
What other reasons? Don't be vague, I would like some specifics.
Maybe the developers have decided it is time for the hunger system to live up to the intended purpose. I can think of no good reason to include the need to eat other than to increase difficulty.
How does food equal exploration? You don't need to explore far to find two cows to breed. I feel as if the only way exploration is encouraged in the realm of food is to find carrots and potatoes. Which drop from zombies anyways.
The hunger system is directly tied to the regeneration system. The regeneration system allows a player much more leeway than what the original system allowed, and the constantly draining hunger bar forces the player to take risks to maintain his health regeneration if he is in a scenario where he actually needs it.
More leeway with health encourages the player to take risks, like taking fall damage, that were previously abhorred and avoided because healing required wasting hotbar and inventory slots.
What other reasons? Don't be vague, I would like some specifics.
There are other reasons, which I've not completely thought out, but I also think that the hunger system might have been added to:
1) allow custom map makers to make tougher, more challenging maps
2) allow for more unique items and add depth to the game
3) to add an additional risk to PvPing
There might be more. One brain here.
Maybe the developers have decided it is time for the hunger system to live up to the intended purpose. I can think of no good reason to include the need to eat other than to increase difficulty.
Not to sound like a ****, but that's because you haven't thought about the benefits of the hunger system over the old system, the fact that came in the Adventure Update, and the fact that the same update added tons of food sources that make the hunger system less concerning on your average map.
Please, please, please explain to me why hunger should even be a part of survival mode if it should be something we shouldn't have to worry about?
I maintain that hunger should be worried about in survival, only that it shouldn't be worried about exclusively.
And that's why I feel bonemeal is an acceptable inclusion. Food is still a factor, of course, but it isn't the main factor. You can still go without food, and die, if you aren't careful, but it doesn't smother other gameplay elements. Because when you think about it, bonemeal or not, once you have a farm it sort of stops being a problem, ever again. You're fed forever, so whether you can timeskip with bonemeal or not doesn't really lessen the impact of the hunger mechanic. You're still limited as to how much you can heal yourself, or sprint, based on what is in your pockets and how much you have prepared.
I would point to DayZ as an example of a very different kind of survival game based on the management of resources such as food. It's a larger factor there than in Minecraft.
That's just how I feel, though.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Superpop is so underground, he lives with a Diglett!
I really don't think there was too much of a problem with it. Killing skeletons early on is difficult and dangerous, and the only time bonemeal is really important (early game) is exactly when it's difficult to do so.
Playing survival mode should involve some actual surviving.
If you don't sleep in a bed at night then walk around where you stayed you can find bones, arrows, and rotten flesh on the ground.
I like that minecraft has so many optional gameplay elements, but I feel all games need to have some definable, abject rules. Take an open ended game like Dungeons And Dragons. Anyone with half of a decent imagine could make up stories about heroes going on adventures. Thats all D&D is; adventuring out loud with your buddies. It is an open ended world where you can do whatever you want. Without the rules, and the challenge, the game means nothing.
In that time, you could've planted some crops.
Certainly, bonemeal gives you an edge, but it barely reduces the difficulty whatsoever. It's far simpler to kill a cow or two, which can sustain you until you get a proper wheat farm going.
I agree, the first few nights can be spent punching up animals to get you by. But I stand by the idea that bonemeal leads to bigger and better things. If you can bonemeal up a bunch of wheat, then breed a bunch of cows in a short time you can then make all the books you need to enchant your tools very quick. Nerfing the bonemeal was probably introduced to slow that process. Not to mention books are enchantable now, they have an even greater value. Why not make it harder to get them?
A lot of players clamor for higher difficulties in the game, but they ask for new mob bosses, smarter AI, and a host of other suggestions related to new content. Why not get the same difficulties by changing what we already have? The ender dragon is a cakewalk if you go to the end super saiyaned out with enchanted gear. But if you have to work harder to get those enchantments, and play smarter, then the game is more challenging.
----
It was fine before where you weren't just handed bones.Cecil books aren't that efficient for enchanting tools especially in SSP where mega xp farms aren't that common in vanilla.You also seem to think wheat is the key to everything and that bonemeal was oh so game breaking.
I never thought or said, anywhere, that bonemeal was fine at insta-grow. Please stop using that as a vehicle to move your opinion. I have said dozens of times that the game should involve more difficulty. Long before the bonemeal nerf.
So are you saying bonemeal nerf isn't a good way to increase difficulty? Well I agree with that
That isn't a well thought out compromise. Wheat has eight stages including the stage where you plant it. So reducing it to four bonemeal would be decent. Carrots and potatoes only have four stages to begin with, bonemeal shouldn't even work on them. Melons and pumpkins, once the stem is mature, will grow extremely fast. No bonemeal needed there either. I agree on trees, but mushrooms should at least be equivocal to trees. They are a mildly easy way to get mushrooms, not to mention they look so very good as villager houses in jungle biomes.
This is a clever, but wrong, way of spinning my words. No I am not saying that, but well played!
The way I see it, bonemeal is a linear process. It works at a mostly constant rate. You can only kill so many skeletons and whatnot. Farming is an exponential process. One plant leads to two, then four, then eight, then sixteen, and so forth.
At first, bonemeal seems like the best option. Over time, though, plain old farming becomes more powerful.
Bottom line, bonemeal is only tangentially related to difficulty for a short period of time. If you want to make the game harder, I would focus on core problems like the power of armor and the simplicity of mob AI.
I disagree. Bonemeal is more useful than a large farm.
Once a farm gets to be so large it is unmanageable without a great deal of effort and you still have to wait for it to grow. It's definetly not more powerful than bonemeal and a 1 block wheat farm where you can just spam instant wheat over and over in a very short period of time.
Just look at Cecil's chest of bonemeal and imagine 1 wheat for for every bonemeal. I often have chests full of stacks and stacks of 64 bones.
I am somewhat inclined to agree with this. I don't bonemeal my wheat now because the natural pace is enough to keep me fed. But I wouldn't say fighting skeletons to get a ton of bonemeal is out of the question. Ever try to get all the music discs? I did, and this happened:
And I still am missing one disc.
I also spent some time bonemealing my wheat, breeding cows, and making a retarded amount of enchanted books to trade with a villager for an equally retarded amount of emeralds. It was too easy. I fully support the nerf.
Heck, it should take time to place blocks!
Not having to worry about food is part of that, and you don't have to worry about food even if Bonemeal is nerfed (except in specific scenarios which I've already listed),
Please, please, please explain to me why hunger should even be a part of survival mode if it should be something we shouldn't have to worry about?
Among other reasons.
Difficulty in vanilla survival isn't a reason. Otherwise, they would not have made food ridiculously abundant in the same update they added the hunger system.
How does food equal exploration? You don't need to explore far to find two cows to breed. I feel as if the only way exploration is encouraged in the realm of food is to find carrots and potatoes. Which drop from zombies anyways.
What other reasons? Don't be vague, I would like some specifics.
Maybe the developers have decided it is time for the hunger system to live up to the intended purpose. I can think of no good reason to include the need to eat other than to increase difficulty.
More leeway with health encourages the player to take risks, like taking fall damage, that were previously abhorred and avoided because healing required wasting hotbar and inventory slots.
There are other reasons, which I've not completely thought out, but I also think that the hunger system might have been added to:
1) allow custom map makers to make tougher, more challenging maps
2) allow for more unique items and add depth to the game
3) to add an additional risk to PvPing
There might be more. One brain here.
Not to sound like a ****, but that's because you haven't thought about the benefits of the hunger system over the old system, the fact that came in the Adventure Update, and the fact that the same update added tons of food sources that make the hunger system less concerning on your average map.
I maintain that hunger should be worried about in survival, only that it shouldn't be worried about exclusively.
And that's why I feel bonemeal is an acceptable inclusion. Food is still a factor, of course, but it isn't the main factor. You can still go without food, and die, if you aren't careful, but it doesn't smother other gameplay elements. Because when you think about it, bonemeal or not, once you have a farm it sort of stops being a problem, ever again. You're fed forever, so whether you can timeskip with bonemeal or not doesn't really lessen the impact of the hunger mechanic. You're still limited as to how much you can heal yourself, or sprint, based on what is in your pockets and how much you have prepared.
I would point to DayZ as an example of a very different kind of survival game based on the management of resources such as food. It's a larger factor there than in Minecraft.
That's just how I feel, though.
Superpop is so underground, he lives with a Diglett!