I've yet to see getting food actually become anything resembling a challenge (even if you never touched Bonemeal, may I add) except in very specific scenarios that only arise due to external forces beyond the players control.
That is why I feel that the Bonemeal nerf was unjustified. You get a few Bones and are able to expedite the growth process... so what? By the time you've got Bones, you're not starving to death due to the overabundance of food sources (which, if I may remind you, were added by Mojang in 1.8 as well).
In order to actually make hunger a threat, you will have to nerf much more than Bonemeal. You'd have to nerf everything that supplies edible items, of which Bonemeal may be included. Only then will I believe that the hunger system was added to make players lives more strenuous and harder. Otherwise, I'll still feel that Bonemeal did not need to be nerfed because you could get a few crops quicker.
I also feel that Dispensers utilizing Bonemeal should have never been added. Seeds, yes, but Bonemeal? What is the point, exactly?
This Bonemeal change needs to be reversed back to how it was.
This change is just another example of a design that hasn’t been thought through properly. It’s probably leading up to something else in the development pipeline that needs a partial growth mechanism, but you can be sure that whatever that is won’t be worth it. Not when there’s a load of half-finished stuff and bugs out there, that if fixed would delight everyone a lot more.
Skeletons are a bit harder to fight now so bonemeal is harder to get. There's no need to bugger about with how the bonemeal is used.
Making it 7 clicks to grow food is just needlessly tedious. It adds no extra fun to the game. Instead it sucks fun out of the game.
Who grows wheat with bonemeal anyway? Just set up big fields and harvest them every so often...loads of wheat.
Sufficient food isn’t difficult to come by if you know where to find it.
An abundance of food isn't difficult to come by without bonemeal if you organise some kind of garden or farm.
Bonemeal was never a matter of life or death. Its use as a fertiliser might have been a bit accelerated and unrealistic, but who really cares about that in the grand scheme of things? This is just a game and games are meant to be fun above all else.
Bonemeal became a nice little convenience to get things done quickly when you wanted to get fed or grow trees and get on with something else. Now that convenience has been removed and all we have to show for it is more of a grind for no readily discernible reason.
Don’t just take a contrary position and gainsay me.
Bearing in mind that bonemeal is not an essential gameplay device, that new players won’t die without it, or particularly prosper anymore with it and advanced/organised players have more food than they could ever need anyway, explain to me why having to click more and use more bonemeal to grow something makes the game better.
You see arguments arise like this on these forums all the time.
One side puts forward a cogent, coherent and objective case (e.g. the ones opposed to the bonemeal changes here), and the other side just contradicts, but gives no convincing reasons for taking that stance at all and never sufficiently backs up its own opinion.
Instead they allude to purely subjective things, speak for a supposed majority when they are not in a position to know what the majority think, describe some irrelevant idea they’ve had that takes a third way, try to relate one thing in the game to some completely separate and unconnected thing, talk about real world logic and processes when they are not relevant to the argument, or just say something along the lines of that’s the way it is live with it.
That’s why some of these discussions go on for dozens of pages. One side is actually presenting a case, whilst the other is just contradicting them, offering no convincing or rational counter argument and seemingly being incapable of any form of reason or the ability to accept that their first assessment might have been flawed.
My goodness it’s frustrating and Mojang don’t help either when (amongst the many good development ideas they do introduce) they come up with these half baked ideas in the first place.
Careful, I've been using this argument along with others this whole time, and the guys won't hear it =P
The MAIN problem with this : Which is more of a problem? Plays being stressed over something they didn't ask for and cannot ignore, or players getting something nerfed that they didn't use in the first place (Most who support the nerf admit to this) It does nothing to change the experience of THESE supporters, yet it makes the game worse for those who don't support it.
I use bonemeal and I appreciate the nerf. I also own a survival/pvp/economy server. That's why I'm conserned about balance and don't want bonemeal to be OP. To me the nerf makes MC more challenging and more fun. It absolutely changes my experience.
There can be many reasons why someone would support the nerf. It's unfair of you to assume that anyone who supports the nerf never uses bonemeal and it's completely irrational to use this as the basis of your argument.
They could do something else that won't cause a big uproar.
HAHAHAHahaha, you must be a comedian.
Changing something without people complaining, on the minecraft forums, HA.
Ahem, anyway, it doesn't really matter what happens, people ALWAYS complain about it.
"Daylight sensors shouldn't just detect daylight"
"Sideways log placement is stupid"
"The Redstone update is stupid! I don't use redstone, nobody does!" <-- The classic "I don't like it so no one else does"
OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.
But I agree that this nerf was pretty extreme, I think it should scale with difficulty, three stages per bonemeal on easy, two stages per bonemeal on medium, and one stage per bonemeal on hard.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
ragnarock200: awesome, are those things with the creeper faces pistons or furnaces
Snowey1994: There dispensers
You see arguments arise like this on these forums all the time.
One side puts forward a cogent, coherent and objective case (e.g. the ones opposed to the bonemeal changes here), and the other side just contradicts, but gives no convincing reasons for taking that stance at all and never sufficiently backs up its own opinion.
Instead they allude to purely subjective things, speak for a supposed majority when they are not in a position to know what the majority think, describe some irrelevant idea they’ve had that takes a third way, try to relate one thing in the game to some completely separate and unconnected thing, talk about real world logic and processes when they are not relevant to the argument, or just say something along the lines of that’s the way it is live with it.
That’s why some of these discussions go on for dozens of pages. One side is actually presenting a case, whilst the other is just contradicting them, offering no convincing or rational counter argument and seemingly being incapable of any form of reason or the ability to accept that their first assessment might have been flawed.
My goodness it’s frustrating and Mojang don’t help either when (amongst the many good development ideas they do introduce) they come up with these half baked ideas in the first place.
Thank you. This entire thread TL;DR:
Opposition: This makes starting out much harder. And this doesn't effect those well off anyway since they have more food than they can eat.
Supporters: Lol I don't even use bone meal or servers but this is OP. I have no problems cause I already work my butt off since I don't use something optional, and if you don't want to play the game my way you should quit. Get over it and learn 2 farm newb
Opposition: Well why can't you continue to let us have our bone meal, and ignore it like you've been doing?
Supporters: OH LOOK A KITTY!!!!!!...What did you say? Oh never mind it must be more whining. Didn't read.
Sums this whole back and forth up pretty well. Just CP this "argument" back and forth 20 times, rephrased slightly each time, and you got this thread.
HAHAHAHahaha, you must be a comedian.
Changing something without people complaining, on the minecraft forums, HA.
Ahem, anyway, it doesn't really matter what happens, people ALWAYS complain about it.
"Daylight sensors shouldn't just detect daylight"
"Sideways log placement is stupid"
"The Redstone update is stupid! I don't use redstone, nobody does!" <-- The classic "I don't like it so no one else does"
The difference between those and this, is you CAN ignore those. Bone meal none of us will be able to ignore. Daylight sensors, sideways log placement (PURE aesthetic btw) and the redstone update are all optional to use.
As for servers, the "crowd" that this effects is only new spawns. If your on a server for more than an hour this nerf is a take it or leave it thing. And if your biggest worry about PVP is how many wheats the guy has stowed away, and not say, what enchantment his sword has, you are doing pvp.
Also the quote about red-stone is funny cause this is the argument for the buff "I don't rely on it so nobody else should"
As for you, Redstonevet, you present the first bit of evidence FOR this argument, so good for you. (1+)
For economy servers I understand selling wheat can be used for a relatively effortless income, but I think this is more a problem of the economy than the bone meal.
As for the nerf, and those wanting / not wanting it, Again, my point was you could ignore it with its "OP" effect right now, but everyone else (On the issues of server, the server I go on, EVERY SINGLE PERSON I brought this up with said this was a bad idea) Suffers.
Since you run a server, and judging by the numbers of who supports what, it would be a better service to the community to make a mod / game variable for this, So those who want it the same are happy, and you get your choice to still use it in its 1/7th effective state. A simple plugin / server variable, done.
Everyone else gets what they want. Does this sound like a bad idea?
OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.
Minecraft has a bad PvP system... Also where do you think they got bonemeal? Alone with the fact that PvP system is bad, finding spawners is also luck.
OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.
"Can use" and "Forced to use because every other food source has been stripped away" are two completely different things. And, really, the player has more food... so what? That means that the player can finally step outside and go exploring, or go mining to get Iron instead of staring at crops while they grow.
It's not OP to have fun instead of being bored to death for hours, is it?
And then... it's food. It doesn't turn you invulnerable to hostile mobs, and definitely does not make you so strong that you, with Food and Stone Sword in hand, can take on Diamond-armored players and win. All it does is allow you to be able to play Minecraft and have fun getting to the point where you can take on Diamond-armored players, instead of being limited in the same way that players were before Beta 1.8.
I see no problems with Bonemeal on PvP servers. The people who need it there often have no alternatives, and those that don't need it/use it often have those alternatives. A nerf to how much fun a player can have is not a good nerf.
OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.
Complaining about an enemy being fed is lame, as having a full stomach provides as much advantage as someone having both arms in a first fight. Sure its an "advantage" but not having it is more of a giant disadvantage, as then its not even PVP, its PVE, since if your starving to death people won't waste the sword durability / arrows for someone who is going to die of natural causes.
And again, the only advantage to a billion pieces of bread is that you aren't going to be hit with this MASSIVE disadvantage anytime soon.
I dare you. Place an argument why a player with diamond tools and full enchants, and 1 chest of bread is at any disadvantage to a guy in a dirt house and no resources besides a full chunk dedicated to bread storage. I DARE you. Having a bazillion bits of food is only an advantage in the very very long long long long long LONG run, and considering in that time people will get better anyway, this still doesn't mean much. since the guy with diamond tools will make a wheat farm anyway.
If ANYTHING, the argument should be say, having nutrition levels, so a diet of only bread will keep you from dying, but having a diet of fruits / meat / wheat will give player (Very) minor buffs. This way having a large farm has importance (as is all of your points) but people won't be forced to dedicate the first 20 minutes ONLY to getting food (rather than getting a house, a bit of coal, torches, maybe iron if lucky)
I feel like this is completely off topic. PvP really doesn't have anything to do with the bonemeal nerf.
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case. As I said earlier:
There's "Survival Mode" and "Creative Mode". In Survival you have a hunger bar. In Creative you have no hunger bar. There's a big reason for this. It's called surviving. If you can just go and make instant food with bonemeal, you might as well have no hunger bar at all.
Make a wheat farm that's larger than 1 block so you can feed yourself.
I feel like this is completely off topic. PvP really doesn't have anything to do with the bonemeal nerf.
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case. As I said earlier:
This doesn't "undermine" it. It still takes work to get the bone meal, and you still need to keep food in your inventory. Its not like its a "Press to give food" button, it still takes a bit of effort, its just versatile and usable in more situations. And for me, at least, the game gets BETTER for me when I'm no longer fighting for my daily bread, and can start building castles / mining.
Plus this nerf if its powerful enough to disable "instant wheat" would also make bone meal so impractical for wheat nobody would use it anyway to their own benifit, since by the time you have enough bone meal to make a anything, you have a self sufficient farm anyway. And having a self sufficient farm means any extra food doesn't mean , since you can only eat so much per day. You don't gain anything from having 5 times more than you can eat, at all, at least not in the VERY long term.
I feel like this is completely off topic. PvP really doesn't have anything to do with the bonemeal nerf.
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case. As I said earlier:
Though I will likely regret replying to you...
The overabundance of food regardless undermines the threat of the hunger bar and food system. Take Bonemeal out of the equation entirely, and starvation is still far from a threat in a vanilla Minecraft map.
The main point of the hunger system's addition was not to make players struggle to survive, but, rather, to encourage more active exploration through a balanced regeneration system. The survival aspect you desire from hunger mostly comes into play in custom maps and PvP servers as, in both cases, it literally is a struggle to find food at the beginning due to forces beyond the players control. And Bonemeal is far from broken in either.
The main point of the hunger system's addition was not to make players struggle to survive, but, rather, to encourage more active exploration through a balanced regeneration system. The survival aspect you desire from hunger mostly comes into play in custom maps and PvP servers as, in both cases, it literally is a struggle to find food at the beginning due to forces beyond the players control. And Bonemeal is far from broken in either.
I didn't think that I would, but I will.
I just want to add that Notch implemented the hunger system as part of his original goal of making Minecraft Survival Mode a rouge-like experience. I think that he was pretty clear in his definition of Creative Mode versus Survival Mode. When the hunger system first dropped there was a few naysayers who said survival shouldn't be about surviving, to wit I would say is an awkward argument.
You can scrounge his blog and tweets to find the evidence and there sure as crap isn't any reason the current crew wouldn't want to continue that. Maybe they don't, maybe they do, but saying that _jeb and Dinnerbone are deviating would be a fallacy. Nerfing bonemeal is a clear example. For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike
On a slightly constructive note; if Mojang buffed the nerf to three or four bonemeal per wheat and more than two for trees, but kept it seven on hardcore mode I wouldn't have any complaints.
I love the little green particle effect the bone meal has now.
I think a good compromise would be if it grew things through one stage, but had an area of effect, much like when you use bone-meal on grass.
I mostly like the compromise because it would make the particle effect look pretty cool to see it over a larger area. This would also make bone-meal dispensers feasible for larger farms, encouraging automation using that mechanic.
I rather like the effect because it makes wheat- and thus farming and animal breedings- a bit more "end-game". This means you have to consider trade-offs early on, and say, save two of each animal for breeding in the future (or resort to travelling and dragging animals back where you want them, which is a pain in the butt.)
This is the most badassery ever in terms of bonemeal solutions. Not to mention it factors in the importance of taking your SSP world from surviving to thriving.
I call bull. Sure, Notch expressed desires to make Minecraft more Rogue-like but I fail to see how nerfing Bonemeal makes regular Minecraft more Rogue-like or how any of the changes to Minecraft have made it more Rogue-like. It's still a sandbox with RPG elements and none of the traditional Rogue-like gameplay elements even make an appearance in pure vanilla Minecraft.
By nerfing Bonemeal. you remove one way to get food... Big deal. You're not making the game any more rogue-like except to the people who even use Bonemeal on crops, and, even then, they'll just move on and build a farm instead which is the better choice regardless.
Food is still incredibly easy to get. I can list multiple ways to obtain enough food to do more than survive before you even encounter your first Skeleton. Nerfing Bonemeal does not magically solve the problem you people have with the (lack of) difficulty in surviving in Minecraft.
Now when we discussing better way to "fix" bonemeal, I suggest my own invention:
(Ignore the right part by now)
Thanks to this not only we could get a new cool machine in our house, new item to use our iron. we could grind some other things for better potions!
So first you have to have iron to process to easier era. Imo minecraft needs a lot more machines/ new crafting benches to check what materials you have now.
Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly what I was thinking of, except I thought of some other uses:
The grinder would also be used to break down 'mineral blocks', like iron and gold blocks into their ingots. It'd also break down blaze rods into blaze powder, wool into string, gold into nuggets, etc.
Thank you for putting the grinder idea out here.
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case.
Actually, there is a better reason it was nerfed.If you read this you will understand what I mean by that the hunger bar and food system is not the main or even a reason for the nerf. If it was OP before then Mojang should have changed it a long time ago.
Now when we discussing better way to "fix" bonemeal, I suggest my own invention:
(Ignore the right part by now)
Thanks to this not only we could get a new cool machine in our house, new item to use our iron. we could grind some other things for better potions!
So first you have to have iron to process to easier era. Imo minecraft needs a lot more machines/ new crafting benches to check what materials you have now.
That's very interesting, needing iron to grind bones into bonemeal, although needing iron to grind wheat seems a bit too much.
As for new machines, introduction of flour would call for ovens! (8 bricks) Then, we can add different things to the flour to make bread (+water bottle), cookies (+cocoa), pretzels (+sugar), pie (+pumpkin), etc.
Not everything in the game has to be optional. Even a game like minecraft needs rules; and this rule is great. If you could carve a decent argument for why tools shouldn't have durability then I may be inclined to agree that the balancing of wheat was superfluous. But I don't think anyone could convince me tools should be impervious to wear. Not even Henry Kissinger.
Apparently not.
Thank you so much. That's pretty much what I am all about. Optional things shouldn't be applied to things like this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
I feel like this is completely off topic. PvP really doesn't have anything to do with the bonemeal nerf.
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case. As I said earlier:
Ahhh, reading this posts like yours has really made me feel better.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
That is why I feel that the Bonemeal nerf was unjustified. You get a few Bones and are able to expedite the growth process... so what? By the time you've got Bones, you're not starving to death due to the overabundance of food sources (which, if I may remind you, were added by Mojang in 1.8 as well).
In order to actually make hunger a threat, you will have to nerf much more than Bonemeal. You'd have to nerf everything that supplies edible items, of which Bonemeal may be included. Only then will I believe that the hunger system was added to make players lives more strenuous and harder. Otherwise, I'll still feel that Bonemeal did not need to be nerfed because you could get a few crops quicker.
I also feel that Dispensers utilizing Bonemeal should have never been added. Seeds, yes, but Bonemeal? What is the point, exactly?
This change is just another example of a design that hasn’t been thought through properly. It’s probably leading up to something else in the development pipeline that needs a partial growth mechanism, but you can be sure that whatever that is won’t be worth it. Not when there’s a load of half-finished stuff and bugs out there, that if fixed would delight everyone a lot more.
Skeletons are a bit harder to fight now so bonemeal is harder to get. There's no need to bugger about with how the bonemeal is used.
Making it 7 clicks to grow food is just needlessly tedious. It adds no extra fun to the game. Instead it sucks fun out of the game.
Who grows wheat with bonemeal anyway? Just set up big fields and harvest them every so often...loads of wheat.
Sufficient food isn’t difficult to come by if you know where to find it.
An abundance of food isn't difficult to come by without bonemeal if you organise some kind of garden or farm.
Bonemeal was never a matter of life or death. Its use as a fertiliser might have been a bit accelerated and unrealistic, but who really cares about that in the grand scheme of things? This is just a game and games are meant to be fun above all else.
Bonemeal became a nice little convenience to get things done quickly when you wanted to get fed or grow trees and get on with something else. Now that convenience has been removed and all we have to show for it is more of a grind for no readily discernible reason.
Don’t just take a contrary position and gainsay me.
Bearing in mind that bonemeal is not an essential gameplay device, that new players won’t die without it, or particularly prosper anymore with it and advanced/organised players have more food than they could ever need anyway, explain to me why having to click more and use more bonemeal to grow something makes the game better.
One side puts forward a cogent, coherent and objective case (e.g. the ones opposed to the bonemeal changes here), and the other side just contradicts, but gives no convincing reasons for taking that stance at all and never sufficiently backs up its own opinion.
Instead they allude to purely subjective things, speak for a supposed majority when they are not in a position to know what the majority think, describe some irrelevant idea they’ve had that takes a third way, try to relate one thing in the game to some completely separate and unconnected thing, talk about real world logic and processes when they are not relevant to the argument, or just say something along the lines of that’s the way it is live with it.
That’s why some of these discussions go on for dozens of pages. One side is actually presenting a case, whilst the other is just contradicting them, offering no convincing or rational counter argument and seemingly being incapable of any form of reason or the ability to accept that their first assessment might have been flawed.
My goodness it’s frustrating and Mojang don’t help either when (amongst the many good development ideas they do introduce) they come up with these half baked ideas in the first place.
I use bonemeal and I appreciate the nerf. I also own a survival/pvp/economy server. That's why I'm conserned about balance and don't want bonemeal to be OP. To me the nerf makes MC more challenging and more fun. It absolutely changes my experience.
There can be many reasons why someone would support the nerf. It's unfair of you to assume that anyone who supports the nerf never uses bonemeal and it's completely irrational to use this as the basis of your argument.
HAHAHAHahaha, you must be a comedian.
Changing something without people complaining, on the minecraft forums, HA.
Ahem, anyway, it doesn't really matter what happens, people ALWAYS complain about it.
"Daylight sensors shouldn't just detect daylight"
"Sideways log placement is stupid"
"The Redstone update is stupid! I don't use redstone, nobody does!" <-- The classic "I don't like it so no one else does"
OT: Like I said, bonemeal was OP, and don't just say "Ignore it!" because if people play on PvP survival servers, their competition could just use bonemeal and have tons of food while you are falling behind in food production.
But I agree that this nerf was pretty extreme, I think it should scale with difficulty, three stages per bonemeal on easy, two stages per bonemeal on medium, and one stage per bonemeal on hard.
Snowey1994: There dispensers
Thank you. This entire thread TL;DR:
Opposition: This makes starting out much harder. And this doesn't effect those well off anyway since they have more food than they can eat.
Supporters: Lol I don't even use bone meal or servers but this is OP. I have no problems cause I already work my butt off since I don't use something optional, and if you don't want to play the game my way you should quit. Get over it and learn 2 farm newb
Opposition: Well why can't you continue to let us have our bone meal, and ignore it like you've been doing?
Supporters: OH LOOK A KITTY!!!!!!...What did you say? Oh never mind it must be more whining. Didn't read.
Sums this whole back and forth up pretty well. Just CP this "argument" back and forth 20 times, rephrased slightly each time, and you got this thread.
The difference between those and this, is you CAN ignore those. Bone meal none of us will be able to ignore. Daylight sensors, sideways log placement (PURE aesthetic btw) and the redstone update are all optional to use.
As for servers, the "crowd" that this effects is only new spawns. If your on a server for more than an hour this nerf is a take it or leave it thing. And if your biggest worry about PVP is how many wheats the guy has stowed away, and not say, what enchantment his sword has, you are doing pvp.
Also the quote about red-stone is funny cause this is the argument for the buff "I don't rely on it so nobody else should"
As for you, Redstonevet, you present the first bit of evidence FOR this argument, so good for you. (1+)
For economy servers I understand selling wheat can be used for a relatively effortless income, but I think this is more a problem of the economy than the bone meal.
As for the nerf, and those wanting / not wanting it, Again, my point was you could ignore it with its "OP" effect right now, but everyone else (On the issues of server, the server I go on, EVERY SINGLE PERSON I brought this up with said this was a bad idea) Suffers.
Since you run a server, and judging by the numbers of who supports what, it would be a better service to the community to make a mod / game variable for this, So those who want it the same are happy, and you get your choice to still use it in its 1/7th effective state. A simple plugin / server variable, done.
Everyone else gets what they want. Does this sound like a bad idea?
Minecraft has a bad PvP system... Also where do you think they got bonemeal? Alone with the fact that PvP system is bad, finding spawners is also luck.
It's not OP to have fun instead of being bored to death for hours, is it?
And then... it's food. It doesn't turn you invulnerable to hostile mobs, and definitely does not make you so strong that you, with Food and Stone Sword in hand, can take on Diamond-armored players and win. All it does is allow you to be able to play Minecraft and have fun getting to the point where you can take on Diamond-armored players, instead of being limited in the same way that players were before Beta 1.8.
I see no problems with Bonemeal on PvP servers. The people who need it there often have no alternatives, and those that don't need it/use it often have those alternatives. A nerf to how much fun a player can have is not a good nerf.
Complaining about an enemy being fed is lame, as having a full stomach provides as much advantage as someone having both arms in a first fight. Sure its an "advantage" but not having it is more of a giant disadvantage, as then its not even PVP, its PVE, since if your starving to death people won't waste the sword durability / arrows for someone who is going to die of natural causes.
And again, the only advantage to a billion pieces of bread is that you aren't going to be hit with this MASSIVE disadvantage anytime soon.
I dare you. Place an argument why a player with diamond tools and full enchants, and 1 chest of bread is at any disadvantage to a guy in a dirt house and no resources besides a full chunk dedicated to bread storage. I DARE you. Having a bazillion bits of food is only an advantage in the very very long long long long long LONG run, and considering in that time people will get better anyway, this still doesn't mean much. since the guy with diamond tools will make a wheat farm anyway.
If ANYTHING, the argument should be say, having nutrition levels, so a diet of only bread will keep you from dying, but having a diet of fruits / meat / wheat will give player (Very) minor buffs. This way having a large farm has importance (as is all of your points) but people won't be forced to dedicate the first 20 minutes ONLY to getting food (rather than getting a house, a bit of coal, torches, maybe iron if lucky)
Anyone agree with this?
Bonemeal was nerfed because it undermined the entire hunger bar and food system. No one has yet been able to provide a reasonable argument that suggests that this isn't the case. As I said earlier:
This doesn't "undermine" it. It still takes work to get the bone meal, and you still need to keep food in your inventory. Its not like its a "Press to give food" button, it still takes a bit of effort, its just versatile and usable in more situations. And for me, at least, the game gets BETTER for me when I'm no longer fighting for my daily bread, and can start building castles / mining.
Plus this nerf if its powerful enough to disable "instant wheat" would also make bone meal so impractical for wheat nobody would use it anyway to their own benifit, since by the time you have enough bone meal to make a anything, you have a self sufficient farm anyway. And having a self sufficient farm means any extra food doesn't mean , since you can only eat so much per day. You don't gain anything from having 5 times more than you can eat, at all, at least not in the VERY long term.
The overabundance of food regardless undermines the threat of the hunger bar and food system. Take Bonemeal out of the equation entirely, and starvation is still far from a threat in a vanilla Minecraft map.
The main point of the hunger system's addition was not to make players struggle to survive, but, rather, to encourage more active exploration through a balanced regeneration system. The survival aspect you desire from hunger mostly comes into play in custom maps and PvP servers as, in both cases, it literally is a struggle to find food at the beginning due to forces beyond the players control. And Bonemeal is far from broken in either.
I didn't think that I would, but I will.
I just want to add that Notch implemented the hunger system as part of his original goal of making Minecraft Survival Mode a rouge-like experience. I think that he was pretty clear in his definition of Creative Mode versus Survival Mode. When the hunger system first dropped there was a few naysayers who said survival shouldn't be about surviving, to wit I would say is an awkward argument.
You can scrounge his blog and tweets to find the evidence and there sure as crap isn't any reason the current crew wouldn't want to continue that. Maybe they don't, maybe they do, but saying that _jeb and Dinnerbone are deviating would be a fallacy. Nerfing bonemeal is a clear example. For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike
On a slightly constructive note; if Mojang buffed the nerf to three or four bonemeal per wheat and more than two for trees, but kept it seven on hardcore mode I wouldn't have any complaints.
This is the most badassery ever in terms of bonemeal solutions. Not to mention it factors in the importance of taking your SSP world from surviving to thriving.
By nerfing Bonemeal. you remove one way to get food... Big deal. You're not making the game any more rogue-like except to the people who even use Bonemeal on crops, and, even then, they'll just move on and build a farm instead which is the better choice regardless.
Food is still incredibly easy to get. I can list multiple ways to obtain enough food to do more than survive before you even encounter your first Skeleton. Nerfing Bonemeal does not magically solve the problem you people have with the (lack of) difficulty in surviving in Minecraft.
Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly what I was thinking of, except I thought of some other uses:
The grinder would also be used to break down 'mineral blocks', like iron and gold blocks into their ingots. It'd also break down blaze rods into blaze powder, wool into string, gold into nuggets, etc.
Thank you for putting the grinder idea out here.
Actually, there is a better reason it was nerfed.If you read this you will understand what I mean by that the hunger bar and food system is not the main or even a reason for the nerf. If it was OP before then Mojang should have changed it a long time ago.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1666081-the-bonemeal-solution/
READ the op of that board! Also would 2 for wheat,carrots,potatoes and 3 for melon and pumpkins stem sound fine?
That's very interesting, needing iron to grind bones into bonemeal, although needing iron to grind wheat seems a bit too much.
As for new machines, introduction of flour would call for ovens! (8 bricks) Then, we can add different things to the flour to make bread (+water bottle), cookies (+cocoa), pretzels (+sugar), pie (+pumpkin), etc.
Thank you so much. That's pretty much what I am all about. Optional things shouldn't be applied to things like this.
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2
Ahhh, reading this posts like yours has really made me feel better.
"The oceans of minecraft are vast and nearly endless... and we just have a floating little box to traverse across them..." - doctorseaweed2