The issue the people have with the nerf is not that you have to click more, it is that they have to collect more bones, it now takes two bones to grow just ONE plant to almost grown state (there is still one more state it would have to grow if you use two bones)
That requires over 6 BONES (not bonemeal) to get ONE piece of bread, before it was ONE bone for ONE bread.
Actually, the second issue is that you have to click more. That is annoying and will not make survival harder just less fun. Mojang can do many other things to make survival more survival without changing things that don't need to be really changed.
I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you saying that bonemeal makes the first few days easier, because it doesn't. Or are you saying that insta grow is important to building huge pixel art pokemon without starving? Because there is creative mode for that. Unless you want to play survival while you make the pixel art; then you should play by the rules and it should be difficult.
This argument is asinine. The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once. Changing the amount of bonemeal needed simply makes bonemeal a little more difficult to use. This change is a nudge in the direction of a more rouge-like experience that Notch wanted to take the game in to begin with. And I refuse to get into a whole new argument about how Notch no longer developers for minecraft so my argument is invalidated.
I only get 4 to 5 hours a week to play minecraft lately; I recently picked up a second job, and my days are spent with my wife and my daughter. So I play an hour a so before I go to bed. This is how much bonemeal I have in my world:
That is 1,782 pieces of bonemeal, playing casually, and not using a skeleton spawner. Not including what bones I may have lying around unused. (most of those bones came from trying to get music discs. i have all but one!) Why not make an item so easily available worth less? It makes sense to me.
I am not trying to be a jerk, or say my opinion is better or even really argue at all. I think I just don't understand why making the game a smidge more challenging is bad.
But making the game a smidge more challenging this way doesn't seem practical. :/ They could do something else that won't cause a big uproar. If you see the other board about bonemeal there are some proposed ideas to make crafting bonemeal harder but still keeping the regular bonemeal. If it has to come down to it I think 2 bonemeal for all crops would be tolerable and decent.
I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you saying that bonemeal makes the first few days easier, because it doesn't. Or are you saying that insta grow is important to building huge pixel art pokemon without starving? Because there is creative mode for that. Unless you want to play survival while you make the pixel art; then you should play by the rules and it should be difficult.
It does make the first few days easier since you can make a wood hoe, get a seed and use bone meal to jump start a farm. If you cannot see how this helps, I have lost hope in your ability to understand basic logic. nobody said anything about pixel are, mostly this is used when people get unlucky with no water / animals. The pixel are has absolutely nothing to do with the argument, is off topic, and only intended as an insult. THE WHOLE ARGUMENT HAS BEEN ABOUT THE "FIRST FEW DAYS" , DON'T ACT LIKE I'M THE ONLY ONE TO SAY THIS.
This argument is asinine. The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once. Changing the amount of bonemeal needed simply makes bonemeal a little more difficult to use. This change is a nudge in the direction of a more rouge-like experience that Notch wanted to take the game in to begin with. And I refuse to get into a whole new argument about how Notch no longer developers for minecraft so my argument is invalidated.
The properties did change. It is now 1/7th as useful as before. you CANNOT say this is nothing, as by no definition is this "small". And name me 1 post on this issue that brought up notch and him developing the game. It was not one of mine. And again, this is off topic.
I only get 4 to 5 hours a week to play minecraft lately; I recently picked up a second job, and my days are spent with my wife and my daughter. So I play an hour a so before I go to bed. This is how much bonemeal I have in my world:
And how long have you been playing this? Certainly more than 3 nights. For the millionth time, bone meal is mainly for starting out. I'm sure you also have a massive wheat farm, to which bone meal would be a waste of time.
That is 1,782 pieces of bonemeal, playing casually, and not using a skeleton spawner. Not including what bones I may have lying around unused. (most of those bones came from trying to get music discs. i have all but one!) Why not make an item so easily available worth less? It makes sense to me.
I am not trying to be a jerk, or say my opinion is better or even really argue at all. I think I just don't understand why making the game a smidge more challenging is bad.
making something 7 times less useful is not a "smidge". making 2 per wheat I could get behind, but not this, at all.
Yeah sorry. Wheat has been my GOTO item, since I refuse to slaughter animals till I can breed them. But this will (in its current form) make this impossible. or at very least I will switch to farming trees for apples, since this would be more effective. 3 trees worth of apples for about the same.
How come people JUST started to complain that bonemeal was OP when they nerfed it?
Because (at least in my case) I understand that complaining about features usually doesn't do anything, so I just deal with it. But if Mojang makes a change of their own accord, if I like it, I will support it.
Yeah sorry. Wheat has been my GOTO item, since I refuse to slaughter animals till I can breed them. But this will (in its current form) make this impossible. or at very least I will switch to farming trees for apples, since this would be more effective. 3 trees worth of apples for about the same.
Punching cows and pigs and chickens for raw meat is exponentially easier than trying to kill skeletons on your first night. Your refusal to kill animals is a personal, albeit illogical, choice.
And since you brought it up, here is my wheat farm:
The left and center green houses combined produce a little bit more than a stack of wheat, and the one on the right is divided into the parts. Two thirds are potatoes and carrots, and the center third is melons. I don't use bonemeal on any of it, because I rarely need that particular food. In this world instead of breeding cows to make my enchanting area, I just hunted them all with wolves. After I got all of the leather I needed I had plenty of beef. I keep harvesting from the greenhouses up so that when I do run out of beef I'll be fine.
I am not even sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you saying that bonemeal makes the first few days easier, because it doesn't. Or are you saying that insta grow is important to building huge pixel art pokemon without starving? Because there is creative mode for that. Unless you want to play survival while you make the pixel art; then you should play by the rules and it should be difficult.
I'm arguing that your argument about why Bonemeal is OP doesn't make sense. I also want iterate that this has little to no effect on people who are established, making it only affect those who actually use Bonemeal on crops in the first place: people who are getting ready to start a farm.
Your examples are also nonsensical, and so is your belief that non-custom map "survival" Minecraft should be difficult to survive in. I didn't say bad, I said it doesn't make sense because Minecraft isn't about surviving but thriving.
This argument is asinine. The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once.
Since it's so unimportant and there are other options that are just as good, if not better, why does Bonemeal deserve to be nerfed?
Changing the amount of bonemeal needed simply makes bonemeal a little more difficult to use.
Annoying is a better word to use. I see no difficulty change between hitting RMB when I am safe from harm, and hitting RMB seven times when I am safe harm.
This change is a nudge in the direction of a more rouge-like experience that Notch wanted to take the game in to begin with.
I think it's a good thing that Minecraft hasn't become more rogue-like, and has stayed as a sandbox where you are free to do whatever you want, however you want.
And I refuse to get into a whole new argument about how Notch no longer developers for minecraft so my argument is invalidated.
Then you shouldn't bring him up in the first place.
I only get 4 to 5 hours a week to play minecraft lately; I recently picked up a second job, and my days are spent with my wife and my daughter. So I play an hour a so before I go to bed. This is how much bonemeal I have in my world:
That is 1,782 pieces of bonemeal, playing casually, and not using a skeleton spawner. Not including what bones I may have lying around unused. (most of those bones came from trying to get music discs. i have all but one!) Why not make an item so easily available worth less? It makes sense to me.
And how long have you played your world? I can get ~10 stacks of bones easily too, after a week of roaming around at night and caving, and I play casually as well. I prefer to keep my Bonemeal as Bones, however, to save on chest space because Bonemeal really isn't that useful for anything other than growing Trees and flowers.
Having crops require seven times the Bonemeal input just makes one of the more lackluster uses of Bonemeal even more lackluster. It doesn't solve problems because food is the second most common resource without Bonemeal, and breaks many things that are based around the effects of Bonemeal.
What does the nerf achieve? Nothing positive, I'll tell you.
If anything, Bonemeal should be getting more uses, instead of regulating the old uses to require more RMB spamming.
I am not trying to be a jerk, or say my opinion is better or even really argue at all. I think I just don't understand why making the game a smidge more challenging is bad.
Because it isn't making the game more challenging at all.
You said it yourself:
"The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once."
Since it has such a little effect on gameplay, how does nerfing it make the game more challenging?
The answer: It doesn't.
The nerf adds another annoyance to the game and makes an item that is moreorless fine as is into something you'll never want to use. By this asinine nerf, you're actually removing reasons to use Bonemeal more than you're encouraging people to use it.
In order to encourage people to use something, you need to give it a good, useful effect, not make the already lackluster effects require more of it.
I think we should agree to disagree; what you see as annoying is to me what is considered challenge. The challenge of collecting enough bonemeal to instragrow wheat has risen, get over it. And if you think having to right click your button an extra six times is some sort of hardship, then you need to go outside some time.
Punching cows and pigs and chickens for raw meat is exponentially easier than trying to kill skeletons on your first night. Your refusal to kill animals is a personal, albeit illogical, choice.
I gave my damn reason in the post, you didn't read. you cant bread hacked up animals, meaning that you need to find more later. ESPECIALLY with cows, this is a problem. I know its "easier" but it also lowers how fast you can make a cattle ranch if you hack cows into pieces.
And since you brought it up, here is my wheat farm:
The left and center green houses combined produce a little bit more than a stack of wheat, and the one on the right is divided into the parts. Two thirds are potatoes and carrots, and the center third is melons. I don't use bonemeal on any of it, because I rarely need that particular food. In this world instead of breeding cows to make my enchanting area, I just hunted them all with wolves. After I got all of the leather I needed I had plenty of beef. I keep harvesting from the greenhouses up so that when I do run out of beef I'll be fine.
And how in gods name is this made any more op by bone meal? You have more food than you, or you and a friend could eat, bone meal only makes this slightly more. Saying it makes THAT op is like saying boosting a 1 hit kill weapons damage is OP. Sure its "increased" but you won't notice it cause it does the job without. and for s sake
THIS IS USED FOR STARTING OUT PEOPLE, NOT MASS PRODUCTION.
Even if it wasn't its FOOD. It is necessary, if you don't have it, you die. If you do have it, your like everybody else. If you have lots, you wont die from starvation in the future. if you DONT have it, you keel over. This does not make anything overpowered, since most people "dismiss" hunger once they get food. You get a farm so you have a flow of food (like yourself) then you for the most part don't think about food besides eating when bellow full, and taking food with you at all times. But starting out (lets say on a hardcore world) How would you not die from this? Fishing is unreliable, and options are good. The argument of this is its "instant" but that's ONLY for the immediate putting down of it. gathering the bones, crafting them, making a how, tilling, collection, replanting, all takes time. And you ignore this.
And the hardship isn't clicking, its collecting that much just to fill your stomach on the first morning. Which you ignore more than a politician.
You don't feel like hunting animals to eat or breed so you need an option to instantly grow food?
And if dying of starvation wasn't a part of the game, then why is hunger even part? Also, if you don't want to die of starvation then play on easy mode. You don't die of starvation on easy mode.
You even cite surviving in hardcore mode; where you can die from hunger. If part of the challenge is not dying, then why should it be easy to survive? Why even bother playing survival mode if you don't want to do the work to get to the point where you are thriving?
Actually, the second issue is that you have to click more. That is annoying and will not make survival harder just less fun. Mojang can do many other things to make survival more survival without changing things that don't need to be really changed.
Ikr
Cause some people want to feel important by jumping onto a band wagon.
This argument is asinine. The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once. Changing the amount of bonemeal needed simply makes bonemeal a little more difficult to use. This change is a nudge in the direction of a more rouge-like experience that Notch wanted to take the game in to begin with. And I refuse to get into a whole new argument about how Notch no longer developers for minecraft so my argument is invalidated.
I only get 4 to 5 hours a week to play minecraft lately; I recently picked up a second job, and my days are spent with my wife and my daughter. So I play an hour a so before I go to bed. This is how much bonemeal I have in my world:
That is 1,782 pieces of bonemeal, playing casually, and not using a skeleton spawner. Not including what bones I may have lying around unused. (most of those bones came from trying to get music discs. i have all but one!) Why not make an item so easily available worth less? It makes sense to me.
I am not trying to be a jerk, or say my opinion is better or even really argue at all. I think I just don't understand why making the game a smidge more challenging is bad.
Calm down D:Mojang will not keep bonemeal 7 per crops I 100% believe they won't. If they did then well I lose hope.
Yeah sorry. Wheat has been my GOTO item, since I refuse to slaughter animals till I can breed them. But this will (in its current form) make this impossible. or at very least I will switch to farming trees for apples, since this would be more effective. 3 trees worth of apples for about the same.
Because (at least in my case) I understand that complaining about features usually doesn't do anything, so I just deal with it. But if Mojang makes a change of their own accord, if I like it, I will support it.
...but that's just like, my opinion, man.
Punching cows and pigs and chickens for raw meat is exponentially easier than trying to kill skeletons on your first night. Your refusal to kill animals is a personal, albeit illogical, choice.
And since you brought it up, here is my wheat farm:
The left and center green houses combined produce a little bit more than a stack of wheat, and the one on the right is divided into the parts. Two thirds are potatoes and carrots, and the center third is melons. I don't use bonemeal on any of it, because I rarely need that particular food. In this world instead of breeding cows to make my enchanting area, I just hunted them all with wolves. After I got all of the leather I needed I had plenty of beef. I keep harvesting from the greenhouses up so that when I do run out of beef I'll be fine.
Your examples are also nonsensical, and so is your belief that non-custom map "survival" Minecraft should be difficult to survive in. I didn't say bad, I said it doesn't make sense because Minecraft isn't about surviving but thriving.
Since it's so unimportant and there are other options that are just as good, if not better, why does Bonemeal deserve to be nerfed?
Annoying is a better word to use. I see no difficulty change between hitting RMB when I am safe from harm, and hitting RMB seven times when I am safe harm.
I think it's a good thing that Minecraft hasn't become more rogue-like, and has stayed as a sandbox where you are free to do whatever you want, however you want.
Then you shouldn't bring him up in the first place.
And how long have you played your world? I can get ~10 stacks of bones easily too, after a week of roaming around at night and caving, and I play casually as well. I prefer to keep my Bonemeal as Bones, however, to save on chest space because Bonemeal really isn't that useful for anything other than growing Trees and flowers.
Having crops require seven times the Bonemeal input just makes one of the more lackluster uses of Bonemeal even more lackluster. It doesn't solve problems because food is the second most common resource without Bonemeal, and breaks many things that are based around the effects of Bonemeal.
What does the nerf achieve? Nothing positive, I'll tell you.
If anything, Bonemeal should be getting more uses, instead of regulating the old uses to require more RMB spamming.
Because it isn't making the game more challenging at all.
You said it yourself:
"The properties of bonemeal both before and after the change to not have much effect on the game at all; you can thrive in one world for thousands of real life years and never have to use bonemeal once."
Since it has such a little effect on gameplay, how does nerfing it make the game more challenging?
The answer: It doesn't.
The nerf adds another annoyance to the game and makes an item that is moreorless fine as is into something you'll never want to use. By this asinine nerf, you're actually removing reasons to use Bonemeal more than you're encouraging people to use it.
In order to encourage people to use something, you need to give it a good, useful effect, not make the already lackluster effects require more of it.
I gave my damn reason in the post, you didn't read. you cant bread hacked up animals, meaning that you need to find more later. ESPECIALLY with cows, this is a problem. I know its "easier" but it also lowers how fast you can make a cattle ranch if you hack cows into pieces.
And since you brought it up, here is my wheat farm:
The left and center green houses combined produce a little bit more than a stack of wheat, and the one on the right is divided into the parts. Two thirds are potatoes and carrots, and the center third is melons. I don't use bonemeal on any of it, because I rarely need that particular food. In this world instead of breeding cows to make my enchanting area, I just hunted them all with wolves. After I got all of the leather I needed I had plenty of beef. I keep harvesting from the greenhouses up so that when I do run out of beef I'll be fine.
And how in gods name is this made any more op by bone meal? You have more food than you, or you and a friend could eat, bone meal only makes this slightly more. Saying it makes THAT op is like saying boosting a 1 hit kill weapons damage is OP. Sure its "increased" but you won't notice it cause it does the job without. and for s sake
THIS IS USED FOR STARTING OUT PEOPLE, NOT MASS PRODUCTION.
Even if it wasn't its FOOD. It is necessary, if you don't have it, you die. If you do have it, your like everybody else. If you have lots, you wont die from starvation in the future. if you DONT have it, you keel over. This does not make anything overpowered, since most people "dismiss" hunger once they get food. You get a farm so you have a flow of food (like yourself) then you for the most part don't think about food besides eating when bellow full, and taking food with you at all times. But starting out (lets say on a hardcore world) How would you not die from this? Fishing is unreliable, and options are good. The argument of this is its "instant" but that's ONLY for the immediate putting down of it. gathering the bones, crafting them, making a how, tilling, collection, replanting, all takes time. And you ignore this.
And the hardship isn't clicking, its collecting that much just to fill your stomach on the first morning. Which you ignore more than a politician.
Next Thursday... ...Not soon enough I think.
And I'm only doing the bold hoping it might make him actually realize what I'm saying better. So far its not working.
Steps to a near infinite fuel source
You don't feel like hunting animals to eat or breed so you need an option to instantly grow food?
And if dying of starvation wasn't a part of the game, then why is hunger even part? Also, if you don't want to die of starvation then play on easy mode. You don't die of starvation on easy mode.
You even cite surviving in hardcore mode; where you can die from hunger. If part of the challenge is not dying, then why should it be easy to survive? Why even bother playing survival mode if you don't want to do the work to get to the point where you are thriving?