I see multiple possible solutions for the matter at hand.
1) Remove the Leather requirements totally
2) Remove the Leather requirements for Books and add it to the recipe for writable books
3) Increase Leather drop rate
4) Add extra ways to obtain Leather
6) Increase number of Bookshelves or Books from a single recipe
7) Combination of any of the above
8) Leave it alone and suck it up because you're a whiner and this in in no way an issue.
I'd support any but 8.
Mackinz, we've got support for #3. Even Redstonevet has changed from 8 to 3. You said you'd support any one of these. What's led to this sudden change of opinion that you're so latched on to choice 2?
Mackinz, we've got support for #3. Even Redstonevet has changed from 8 to 3. You said you'd support any one of these. What's led to this sudden change of opinion that you're so latched on to choice 2?
I'm allowed my opinion and my opinion is that it is stupid to require Bookshelves to have Leather (read pointless tedium) when other ways of binding books exist.
We can have Leather for Book and Quill/Written Books and that would solve my issues easily.
First off, I seem to be laughing at you too. And I deny the issue with leather in books, because I (along with other people, otherwise there would be no argument) don't see the issue. I have suggested a compromise of it creating 3 books instead of one, seeing as an entire cow skin is a bit excessive, but that didn't even get replied to. We can come up with plenty of other compromises (such as improving the leather drop rate), but leather could do with another use and books fit it fine.
When I said that there was undeniable issue, I was being intentionally vague about what that issue is.
Personally, I have issue with Books requiring Leather at all, as I find that to be a stupid change to make Bookshelves harder to obtain for no good reason other than to make Leather have a use. I'd rather have Book and Quill require Leather than Books because that solves my issues with Leather for Books while giving Leather a good use. I'd also like Leather to be a more common drop, but that's besides the point.
You have issue with the wasteful recipe of Books, resulting in a highly engorged amount of Leather required for a single Book.
Go ahead and laugh at my opinion. I'm entitled to it, just as much as you are entitled to laugh at it.
Do not laugh at my statement that there is undeniable issue with Books requiring Leather.
Mackinz, we've got support for #3. Even Redstonevet has changed from 8 to 3. You said you'd support any one of these. What's led to this sudden change of opinion that you're so latched on to choice 2?
The sudden change is due to the fact that - I made the point that the books in MC are leather books. He does not want to admit this is correct... when he just argued with me for 2 pages over it.
I'm allowed my opinion and my opinion is that it is stupid to require Bookshelves to have Leather (read pointless tedium) when other ways of binding books exist.
You ARE allowed your opinion. However, earlier when people were fine with leather being required for books and the drop rate, you seemed more eager for a compromise. We've reached a compromise, (an increase in the drop rate for leather) and you've pulled back. Just think! This thread could have AGREEMENT! Past Mackinz would want this I think. Past Mackinz would say, "Look, we've chosen option 3! Option 3, which I said I could fully support! Yay!" But PRESENT Mackinz says, "No! I lied! I only want one option and no others will do!"
Concede that we've made some progress. We all agree that 1500 cows for 300 bookshelves is unreasonable. However, is 450 cows for 300 bookshelves ALSO unreasonable? Less than 1/3 the time. 4.5 cows for 3 bookshelves is 1.5 cows each. I'm willing to pay that GREATLY reduced price, rather than the price of 5 cows per bookshelf before.
2: you can cook rotten flesh into leather. (which solves another annoyance- what to do with that useless garbage...)
This was heavily debated a while back, and dismissed for being completely counter-intuitive. While minecraft isn't exactly realistic, the word "rotten" would immediately make anything disqualified from becoming leather IRL. I can't explain it well enough I think, but the discussion was around page 13 or so, if you feel like looking into it.
This was heavily debated a while back, and dismissed for being completely counter-intuitive. While minecraft isn't exactly realistic, the word "rotten" would immediately make anything disqualified from becoming leather IRL. I can't explain it well enough I think, but the discussion was around page 13 or so, if you feel like looking into it.
You ARE allowed your opinion. However, earlier when people were fine with leather being required for books and the drop rate, you seemed more eager for a compromise. We've reached a compromise, (an increase in the drop rate for leather) and you've pulled back. Just think! This thread could have AGREEMENT! Past Mackinz would want this I think. Past Mackinz would say, "Look, we've chosen option 3! Option 3, which I said I could fully support! Yay!" But PRESENT Mackinz says, "No! I lied! I only want one option and no others will do!"
Concede that we've made some progress. We all agree that 1500 cows for 300 bookshelves is unreasonable. However, is 450 cows for 300 bookshelves ALSO unreasonable? Less than 1/3 the time. 4.5 cows for 3 bookshelves is 1.5 cows each. I'm willing to pay that GREATLY reduced price, rather than the price of 5 cows per bookshelf before.
I concede that we've made progress. It's not unreasonable at all.
But in my opinion, I have to continue to ask why we need Cows for Bookshelves in the first place. It's adding pointless "difficulty" to a block that really does not need it. It's nothing but adding tedium when Bookshelves are already quite tedious to obtain even now.
It's pointless tedium. It does not add to Bookshelves. It makes them more boring to get.
This was heavily debated a while back, and dismissed for being completely counter-intuitive. While minecraft isn't exactly realistic, the word "rotten" would immediately make anything disqualified from becoming leather IRL. I can't explain it well enough I think, but the discussion was around page 13 or so, if you feel like looking into it.
ah. i personally think it would be a good idea, looking at the sprite. oh well. it was the lesser of the two options. the first one still stands, however, and most people seem to agree with it.
You do realise that you can farm cows and wait for reeds to grow? (note: that was rhetorical; I'm sure you do know)
There are usually two routes in minecraft: the efficient but tedious and the inefficient but interesting way. (farming plants doesn't usually follow this route. Let's take getting ores. There's the 'efficient but tedious' method (strip/branch mining) and the 'inefficient but interesting' way (caving). The second option can be efficient, but isn't as efficient as the first. Let's take another. Getting XP. Grinding or fighting.
Here's another. Getting leather. Farming or exploring/hunting. You don't want pointless tedium? Try being interesting. You could try a mixture of both (explore caves you find while strip mining, breed cows and hunt them down), but if it's boring, it probably doesn't have to be.
(For this, I will omit the time it takes to get any Sugar Cane one needs)
When it comes to obtaining Leather, there is only so much one can do while waiting for breeding cycles to end.
You can't go mining (extensively), otherwise you'll be wasting time because you'll miss the start of the cycle. You can grow Sugar Cane, but obtaining the Cane will still take a long time. You can't do "breed cows and hunt them down" because, after a while, you'll be heading out for more than 20 minutes at a time to find 4 Cows.
In the end, the only thing that you really can do is breed them.
Not so bad for the first 30 Bookshelves. You'll need 90 Leather (assuming drop rates are changed), which means ~67.5 Cows (assuming ~50/50 odds of getting 1 or 2 Leather at a time). But you'll still have to breed the Cows for that Leather, even if you kill every other Cow you can find. Still a form of pointless tedium, but it's not horrible.
But then, your house is ready to be decorated. You want a high number of Bookshelves. Say, 300. That's 900 Leather (~675 Cows). You've already killed all the neighboring Cows. You have to breed that many Cows, otherwise you'll spend weeks finding that amount of Leather. You could have a Looting Sword to speed up the process, but keep in mind that enchants are random and now you have to factor in the time it takes to get to the levels needed for Looting.
And now I ask again:
Why should this be?
Did Bookshelves need to become that much more tedious to obtain in numbers?
It doesn't add to the game.
It makes it more boring.
You have to have a well established Cow farm to get that much Leather.
It's adding pointless "difficulty" to the game where it is really not needed.
It's nothing but adding tedium when Bookshelves are already quite tedious to obtain.
It's pointless tedium. It does not add to Bookshelves. It makes them more boring to get.
If you need 300 bookshelves, you SHOULD have AT LEAST a SMALL cow farm. If you don't, then go and find some.
For 300 bookshelves, I should have a large cow farm by that time. If you don't like farms, then too bad for you.
I agree.
To get 300 of anything it should be a bit of an ordeal. You certainly will never need 300 bookshelves. If you don't want to spend time collecting things use creative. That's what its for.
And you obviously see no issue with being forced to breed and kill around 675 Cows for 300 Bookshelves.
Or 450 for 200.
Or 225 for 100.
Ridiculously high numbers of Cows to kill, even when the number of Bookshelves is significantly reduced.
thing is, i dont have plans to need more than 30 bookshelves in survival. i still think that at least 1 leather per cow is a fine idea that would solve our problems nicely.
that way you would need only 300 dead cows for 300 bookshelves, and thats if you were unlucky enough to get only one leather EVERY TIME. if the drop rate was changed to 1-3, we would all be happy.
By the way, we should totally increase the spawn rate of diamond ore veins. I mean seriously. It takes like, an hour to get enough diamonds for just a single set of diamond armor! The digging is pointless and tedious. There is no reason for diamonds to be so rare. I think we should take the diamonds out of the diamond armor recipe as well, but the diamond would be required when we enchant the armor.
Mackinz, we've got support for #3. Even Redstonevet has changed from 8 to 3. You said you'd support any one of these. What's led to this sudden change of opinion that you're so latched on to choice 2?
We can have Leather for Book and Quill/Written Books and that would solve my issues easily.
When I said that there was undeniable issue, I was being intentionally vague about what that issue is.
Personally, I have issue with Books requiring Leather at all, as I find that to be a stupid change to make Bookshelves harder to obtain for no good reason other than to make Leather have a use. I'd rather have Book and Quill require Leather than Books because that solves my issues with Leather for Books while giving Leather a good use. I'd also like Leather to be a more common drop, but that's besides the point.
You have issue with the wasteful recipe of Books, resulting in a highly engorged amount of Leather required for a single Book.
Go ahead and laugh at my opinion. I'm entitled to it, just as much as you are entitled to laugh at it.
Do not laugh at my statement that there is undeniable issue with Books requiring Leather.
So close.
Well at least you tried Shanman13.
The sudden change is due to the fact that - I made the point that the books in MC are leather books. He does not want to admit this is correct... when he just argued with me for 2 pages over it.
1: cows always drop at least one leather.
2: you can cook rotten flesh into leather. (which solves another annoyance- what to do with that useless garbage...)
You ARE allowed your opinion. However, earlier when people were fine with leather being required for books and the drop rate, you seemed more eager for a compromise. We've reached a compromise, (an increase in the drop rate for leather) and you've pulled back. Just think! This thread could have AGREEMENT! Past Mackinz would want this I think. Past Mackinz would say, "Look, we've chosen option 3! Option 3, which I said I could fully support! Yay!" But PRESENT Mackinz says, "No! I lied! I only want one option and no others will do!"
Concede that we've made some progress. We all agree that 1500 cows for 300 bookshelves is unreasonable. However, is 450 cows for 300 bookshelves ALSO unreasonable? Less than 1/3 the time. 4.5 cows for 3 bookshelves is 1.5 cows each. I'm willing to pay that GREATLY reduced price, rather than the price of 5 cows per bookshelf before.
I agree with this one. I also said this waaayyyy before the "are the books leather" fiasco.
Edit: Actually i said 1 leather per cow, but I agree with the concept of increasing the drop rate.
This was heavily debated a while back, and dismissed for being completely counter-intuitive. While minecraft isn't exactly realistic, the word "rotten" would immediately make anything disqualified from becoming leather IRL. I can't explain it well enough I think, but the discussion was around page 13 or so, if you feel like looking into it.
Agreed.
But in my opinion, I have to continue to ask why we need Cows for Bookshelves in the first place. It's adding pointless "difficulty" to a block that really does not need it. It's nothing but adding tedium when Bookshelves are already quite tedious to obtain even now.
It's pointless tedium. It does not add to Bookshelves. It makes them more boring to get.
Why should this be?
The general consensus is that the books are undeniably leather bound - Lets move forward from here.
ah. i personally think it would be a good idea, looking at the sprite. oh well. it was the lesser of the two options. the first one still stands, however, and most people seem to agree with it.
When it comes to obtaining Leather, there is only so much one can do while waiting for breeding cycles to end.
You can't go mining (extensively), otherwise you'll be wasting time because you'll miss the start of the cycle. You can grow Sugar Cane, but obtaining the Cane will still take a long time. You can't do "breed cows and hunt them down" because, after a while, you'll be heading out for more than 20 minutes at a time to find 4 Cows.
In the end, the only thing that you really can do is breed them.
Not so bad for the first 30 Bookshelves. You'll need 90 Leather (assuming drop rates are changed), which means ~67.5 Cows (assuming ~50/50 odds of getting 1 or 2 Leather at a time). But you'll still have to breed the Cows for that Leather, even if you kill every other Cow you can find. Still a form of pointless tedium, but it's not horrible.
But then, your house is ready to be decorated. You want a high number of Bookshelves. Say, 300. That's 900 Leather (~675 Cows). You've already killed all the neighboring Cows. You have to breed that many Cows, otherwise you'll spend weeks finding that amount of Leather. You could have a Looting Sword to speed up the process, but keep in mind that enchants are random and now you have to factor in the time it takes to get to the levels needed for Looting.
And now I ask again:
Why should this be?
Did Bookshelves need to become that much more tedious to obtain in numbers?
It doesn't add to the game.
It makes it more boring.
You have to have a well established Cow farm to get that much Leather.
It's adding pointless "difficulty" to the game where it is really not needed.
It's nothing but adding tedium when Bookshelves are already quite tedious to obtain.
It's pointless tedium. It does not add to Bookshelves. It makes them more boring to get.
Why?
Why do we need this?
The same reason diamond ore isn't as common as coal.
because Jeb thought it was cool and the majority of us agree.
No, no it's not.
And you obviously see no issue with being forced to breed and kill around 675 Cows for 300 Bookshelves.
Or 450 for 200.
Or 225 for 100.
Ridiculously high numbers of Cows to kill, even when the number of Bookshelves is significantly reduced.
For 300 bookshelves, I should have a large cow farm by that time. If you don't like farms, then too bad for you.
Missing the point entirely.
I'm fine with farming. Farming is A-Ok. The problem is in the number of Cows I'm forced to farm.
675 Cows if I'm lucky and get a 50-50 drop rate of 1/2 Leather, if the drop rate of Leather gets increased.
That is far too much for a decorative block.
I agree.
To get 300 of anything it should be a bit of an ordeal. You certainly will never need 300 bookshelves. If you don't want to spend time collecting things use creative. That's what its for.
thing is, i dont have plans to need more than 30 bookshelves in survival. i still think that at least 1 leather per cow is a fine idea that would solve our problems nicely.
that way you would need only 300 dead cows for 300 bookshelves, and thats if you were unlucky enough to get only one leather EVERY TIME. if the drop rate was changed to 1-3, we would all be happy.
Yeah, it's totally not.
By the way, we should totally increase the spawn rate of diamond ore veins. I mean seriously. It takes like, an hour to get enough diamonds for just a single set of diamond armor! The digging is pointless and tedious. There is no reason for diamonds to be so rare. I think we should take the diamonds out of the diamond armor recipe as well, but the diamond would be required when we enchant the armor.