Next time only use terminology when you know what it means.
Wow, now you're implying that I am not only ignorant, but also unintelligent.
You even had the gall to include Wikipedia articles in your post, wow.
The point is, you are consciously or subconsciously altering definitions because you want iron grinders to stay.
They are NOT going to stay as they are now, Jeb and Jon are ALREADY fixing it, so please stop arguing for them.
K, not buying it. Where are you getting all of this iron? Are you actually full clearing chunks? All 285 that you'd need just to get the amount that you have "left over"? I've actually done a good bit of clearing at bedrock level, and before enchants it was barely sustainable using iron and diamond picks- I had to resort to stone occasionally. Even with enchants you can run out of diamond.
What percentage of your time do you actually spend building compared to mining? Or am I supposed to believe that you just found that much iron sitting around on the surface?
Well, 24,500/(8vein size x 20 per chunk) = 153 chunks 'fully' mined.
So he's been on the map quite a long time. It is possible.
:dry.gif: a grinder isn't exponential growth because you get a constant rate of return from it.
ie. the amount of drops will only be what the grinder is capable of producing. a grinder is not capable of increasing its production of drops over time. it drops them at a constant rate (so many drops per hour) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_growth
:dry.gif: also mining isn't a diminishing return. not even close.
The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant, will at some point yield lower per-unit returns. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns)
ie. a pick will mine so many iron blocks before it breaks. it will always mine the same amount. this is constant. the time it takes you for mine iron varies slightly, but will always be roughly the same since iron is very common.
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Therefore, mining and a mob trap both give a constant rate of return. (mining is not quite constant, because time can vary slightly, but it is very close)
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Next time only use terminology when you know what it means.
It's diminishing considering you have to go farther every time, unless of course you move your base while you mine. I don't so I guess I'm biased in that respect.
Iron farm is exponential in the fact that villagers mate. I guess it would actually be logarithmic with iron golem spawn actually, since it would be a sharp increase and then levels off because you would have to build infinite doors to keep breeding going. Still an assload of iron, so much it lags you. lol
Wow, now you're implying that I am not only ignorant, but also unintelligent.
You even had the gall to include Wikipedia articles in your post, wow.
The point is, you are consciously or subconsciously altering definitions because you want iron grinders to stay.
They are NOT going to stay as they are now, Jeb and Jon are ALREADY fixing it, so please stop arguing for them.
read the links. you have a source and i already explained it. you are dead wrong.
i provided a source for your benefit not mine. i already know what the terminology means.
It's diminishing considering you have to go farther every time, unless of course you move your base while you mine. I don't so I guess I'm biased in that respect.
Move, or even better make a chest at your mine and fill it. then bring it all back at once.
build a rail car system.
you can't claim mining is a diminishing return based on human error, or human inefficiency.
So he's been on the map quite a long time. It is possible.
It's not that 24.5k iron isn't possible. I've probably gone through that much. It's the "oh, I just came across it" claim, while simultaneously claiming to build a lot using iron, that doesn't add up. There isn't nearly that much iron just sitting on the surface.
you are so very ignorant.
he is looking at nefing the spawn rate. that doesn't mean they won't be farmable. also i posted that link in my OP.
you really are so, very ignorant. Read the links i posted and stop arguing. You are wrong and i'm not going to argue with you anymore because i have already proven that I am correct.
like i said only use terminology when you know what it means and read the OP before responding.... its only common sense.
The wiki claims 84 iron ore per chunk average. 24,500/84 = 291 chunks.
It's not that 24.5k iron isn't possible. I've probably gone through that much. It's the "oh, I just came across it" claim, while simultaneously claiming to build a lot using iron, that doesn't add up. There isn't nearly that much iron just sitting on the surface.
Well, in the 1.1 code, it was set as vein size 8 and spawns per chunk 20, so max possible per chunk(not including veins overriding each other or air block overrides) would be max 160 per chunk. The average on the wiki is more real-life and therefore more accurate because it takes the overrides into consideration.
Well, in the 1.1 code, it was set as vein size 8 and spawns per chunk 20, so max possible per chunk(not including veins overriding each other or air block overrides) would be max 160 per chunk. The average on the wiki is more real-life and therefore more accurate.
either way there is way more iron in one map that you could ever consume.
once you have a lifetime supply, you have a lifetime supply. there is no benefit in having 2000 iron blocks versus 1000.
I haven't bothered trying yet because I'm currently playing a different game. Are you telling me my explanation would be impossible to do in a short period of time? They breed pretty fast after you place plenty of doors.
I have more of a problem with how it changes the game. It's becoming less about mining every single update.
I'm saying that things become significantly more complicated when you have to locate, and herd enough NPCs somewhere that you can hollow out below to make such a grinder. Or building a platform for villagers to climb while hoping that the golem spawns somewhere accessible for building a kill area below. In creative you can just use spawning eggs or use a flat world to locate some villagers. In survival you often have to search long and hard to find some, and in this case, it would have to be at some point AFTER the player was established enough to have a supply of tools, equipment, and food to be able to make that trip and live long enough away from their base.
Erm, how does this make the game less about mining? Mining has always been just one aspect of the overall game. Many people have been doing far more BUILDING than they have mined. Case in point, you don't see many long videos showing how someone has emptied a 30x30 chunk area from bedrock to sea level while living in a small dirt shack the entire time. Why? Because it isn't much to look at, and while being a rather astounding bit of tireless effort seems like a bit of a waste since all that was accomplished was a large hole in the ground about a solid month later. By that same definition, building an above ground tree farm of any size distracts from mining because it doesn't necessarily require much mining to start. Outside of a few pieces of cobblestone early on, you can manage quite well working with only wood, dirt, grass, wool, sand, clay, and animal products. You can even survive indefinitely with just those materials. Even during Alpha, mining was only a means to an ends, not an ends in itself.
Furthermore, as this WHOLE thing is :
a). An unintended side effect of a new mob which was needed to protect villages.
B). Something which is in a pre-update and is still being adjusted.
c). Something that someone has to intentionally go out of their way to exploit.
Your whole gripe is a bit misplaced atleast as far as the farming side of things goes. People can still CHOOSE to mine their stuff, and most HAVE to mine their stuff, but there are just other options now for those who are more interested in the adventuring and exploring aspect.
People can still CHOOSE to mine their stuff, and most HAVE to mine their stuff, but there are just other options now for those who are more interested in the adventuring and exploring aspect.
Mining is more about adventure and exploration than a grinder is. :/
Mining is more about adventure and exploration than a grinder is. :/
i disagree.
a grinder is more inventive and requires a vast knowledge of the game, how redstone works, how mobs work, where to explore to find the resources you need, how to craft your materials, constructing the mob trap, and manipulating the game environment using the resources you collected/explored and discovered.
and what's your point? say for argument sake what your saying is true - then people are only allowed to play the game, the way YOU play the game?
that doesn't sound very fun and doesn't fit with the model of a sandbox game.
I tend to agree that the iron golems need their spawn toned back a bit, however grinders as a whole are fine. They represent a perfectly legitimate alternative to running at everything you see with a sword. Yeah the ROI is good, once you have invested the time/resources into building a (insert mob) grinder. Personally I get far more a sense of accomplishment when I complete a massive redstone heavy Machiavellian contrivance that (insert task) than I do hitting a skeleton with (insert one of two weapon types in the game).
What could be more fun than a tactical strike against your enemy, destroying their factories and looting their resources.
I'm almost surprised people in these faction SMP servers aren't singering mob grinders, They actually give you something to do. Figure out where your enemy has their grinders stashed and break them.... crippling their (insert resource) production. Instead we get QQ about how "oh this is so unfair", which begs the question why is your hardcore faction server running an early pre-release snapshot in the first place?
And if it still that big an issue ..... run a mod....
i disagree.
a grinder is more inventive and requires a vast knowledge of the game, how redstone works, how mobs work, where to explore to find the resources you need, how to craft your materials, constructing the mob trap, and manipulating the game environment using the resources you collected/explored and discovered.
Except this grinder in peculiar doesn't require knowledge, doesn't even need redstone, you need less resources than making a wheat farm and knowing how to craft stone pickaxes and buckets? everyone can.
This grinder require little to no effort to make.
say for argument sake what your saying is true - then people are only allowed to play the game, the way YOU play the game?
Note that this argument can be used against you: Why do you want to force me to endure other players to gave themselves infinite iron in multiplayer?
And finally the developers (Jeb and Jon) pretty said that it will get a nerf, no matter what you say they care about balance in this game.
Dear me I've missed quite a bit of discussion in the past hour.
I won't multi-quote everything to avoid a post taking up an entire page;
But the long and short of it is:
I checked my backup files, there are saves from about 2-11-11. So yes, I have been on this world for a long, long time.
The rail lines have been a particularly large project partially due to this; as if you want to get into prime cave spelunking territory you need to venture a ways out now. The map size runs from about 4000 in all directions, with three of the prime directions extending out to about 6800. That is a tad mis-leading as the server world itself has been blown away (minus 'settled' regions, ie: towns / major player villages) and regenerated a few times because the community of players has actually run out of reasonably accessible materials before.
While my stock pile in this time frame is extensive; there is one other player that actually has more then myself. (But I am ahead in gold and lapis, ha!)
The addition of the Fortune enchant (as mentioned above) was a godsend for the diamond supply. But the enchant itself is rather rare; there have only been four Fortune III's, and about six Fortune II's. However a diamond pickax lasts a veritable eternity if used exclusively to harvest other diamonds.
"View Postredstonevet90, on 28 February 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:
i disagree.
a grinder is more inventive and requires a vast knowledge of the game, how redstone works, how mobs work, where to explore to find the resources you need, how to craft your materials, constructing the mob trap, and manipulating the game environment using the resources you collected/explored and discovered."
and what's your point? say for argument sake what your saying is true - then people are only allowed to play the game, the way YOU play the game?
that doesn't sound very fun and doesn't fit with the model of a sandbox game.
Note that this argument can be used against you: Why do you want to force me to endure other players to gave themselves infinite iron in multiplayer?
And finally the developers (Jeb and Jon) pretty said that it will get a nerf, no matter what you say they care about balance in this game.
^ This isn't the same as what i am saying at all. allowing grinders allows people to choose for themselves what way they want to play the game.
what your are suggesting is that YOU choose how the game is played by eliminating grinders and leaving players with only one way to play the game - Your way.
what your are suggesting is that YOU choose how the game is played by eliminating grinders and leaving players with only one way to play the game - Your way.
...notice the difference.
Except in the end, the developers have the final word about it and they don't want an infinite iron farm.
No matter what you say the developers can change everything even if you want it or not.
Also you just pick a part of my post which was in response of another thing you said.
RedstoneVet, how can you possibly argue that a grinder embodies ADVENTURE and EXPLORATION in any form?
It does embody building and operating a mechanism, to some extent, but adventure and exploration? No.
I would rather mine underground or go out and fight mobs if I wanted those things.
^ I already explained the exploration and adventure part in my OP. I'm not going to constantly repeat myself for you two.
for argument sake: say you don't have to explore to make an iron farm (which is false) what do you suppose these players do with their iron after they farm it?
build tools and explore and kill mobs with them... :laugh.gif:
the argument that if someone has a mob farm means they aren't playing the game is ridiculous.
Wow, now you're implying that I am not only ignorant, but also unintelligent.
You even had the gall to include Wikipedia articles in your post, wow.
The point is, you are consciously or subconsciously altering definitions because you want iron grinders to stay.
They are NOT going to stay as they are now, Jeb and Jon are ALREADY fixing it, so please stop arguing for them.
So he's been on the map quite a long time. It is possible.
It's diminishing considering you have to go farther every time, unless of course you move your base while you mine. I don't so I guess I'm biased in that respect.
Iron farm is exponential in the fact that villagers mate. I guess it would actually be logarithmic with iron golem spawn actually, since it would be a sharp increase and then levels off because you would have to build infinite doors to keep breeding going. Still an assload of iron, so much it lags you. lol
read the links. you have a source and i already explained it. you are dead wrong.
i provided a source for your benefit not mine. i already know what the terminology means.
Move, or even better make a chest at your mine and fill it. then bring it all back at once.
build a rail car system.
you can't claim mining is a diminishing return based on human error, or human inefficiency.
I have a link for you, too.
Jeb's Tweet.
It's over, you lost, go home.
The wiki claims 84 iron ore per chunk average. 24,500/84 = 291 chunks.
It's not that 24.5k iron isn't possible. I've probably gone through that much. It's the "oh, I just came across it" claim, while simultaneously claiming to build a lot using iron, that doesn't add up. There isn't nearly that much iron just sitting on the surface.
you are so very ignorant.
he is looking at nefing the spawn rate. that doesn't mean they won't be farmable. also i posted that link in my OP.
you really are so, very ignorant. Read the links i posted and stop arguing. You are wrong and i'm not going to argue with you anymore because i have already proven that I am correct.
like i said only use terminology when you know what it means and read the OP before responding.... its only common sense.
either way there is way more iron in one map that you could ever consume.
once you have a lifetime supply, you have a lifetime supply. there is no benefit in having 2000 iron blocks versus 1000.
I'm saying that things become significantly more complicated when you have to locate, and herd enough NPCs somewhere that you can hollow out below to make such a grinder. Or building a platform for villagers to climb while hoping that the golem spawns somewhere accessible for building a kill area below. In creative you can just use spawning eggs or use a flat world to locate some villagers. In survival you often have to search long and hard to find some, and in this case, it would have to be at some point AFTER the player was established enough to have a supply of tools, equipment, and food to be able to make that trip and live long enough away from their base.
Erm, how does this make the game less about mining? Mining has always been just one aspect of the overall game. Many people have been doing far more BUILDING than they have mined. Case in point, you don't see many long videos showing how someone has emptied a 30x30 chunk area from bedrock to sea level while living in a small dirt shack the entire time. Why? Because it isn't much to look at, and while being a rather astounding bit of tireless effort seems like a bit of a waste since all that was accomplished was a large hole in the ground about a solid month later. By that same definition, building an above ground tree farm of any size distracts from mining because it doesn't necessarily require much mining to start. Outside of a few pieces of cobblestone early on, you can manage quite well working with only wood, dirt, grass, wool, sand, clay, and animal products. You can even survive indefinitely with just those materials. Even during Alpha, mining was only a means to an ends, not an ends in itself.
Furthermore, as this WHOLE thing is :
a). An unintended side effect of a new mob which was needed to protect villages.
B). Something which is in a pre-update and is still being adjusted.
c). Something that someone has to intentionally go out of their way to exploit.
Your whole gripe is a bit misplaced atleast as far as the farming side of things goes. People can still CHOOSE to mine their stuff, and most HAVE to mine their stuff, but there are just other options now for those who are more interested in the adventuring and exploring aspect.
Mining is more about adventure and exploration than a grinder is. :/
i disagree.
a grinder is more inventive and requires a vast knowledge of the game, how redstone works, how mobs work, where to explore to find the resources you need, how to craft your materials, constructing the mob trap, and manipulating the game environment using the resources you collected/explored and discovered.
and what's your point?
say for argument sake what your saying is true - then people are only allowed to play the game, the way YOU play the game?
that doesn't sound very fun and doesn't fit with the model of a sandbox game.
What could be more fun than a tactical strike against your enemy, destroying their factories and looting their resources.
I'm almost surprised people in these faction SMP servers aren't singering mob grinders, They actually give you something to do. Figure out where your enemy has their grinders stashed and break them.... crippling their (insert resource) production. Instead we get QQ about how "oh this is so unfair", which begs the question why is your hardcore faction server running an early pre-release snapshot in the first place?
And if it still that big an issue ..... run a mod....
Except this grinder in peculiar doesn't require knowledge, doesn't even need redstone, you need less resources than making a wheat farm and knowing how to craft stone pickaxes and buckets? everyone can.
This grinder require little to no effort to make.
Note that this argument can be used against you: Why do you want to force me to endure other players to gave themselves infinite iron in multiplayer?
And finally the developers (Jeb and Jon) pretty said that it will get a nerf, no matter what you say they care about balance in this game.
I won't multi-quote everything to avoid a post taking up an entire page;
But the long and short of it is:
I checked my backup files, there are saves from about 2-11-11. So yes, I have been on this world for a long, long time.
The rail lines have been a particularly large project partially due to this; as if you want to get into prime cave spelunking territory you need to venture a ways out now. The map size runs from about 4000 in all directions, with three of the prime directions extending out to about 6800. That is a tad mis-leading as the server world itself has been blown away (minus 'settled' regions, ie: towns / major player villages) and regenerated a few times because the community of players has actually run out of reasonably accessible materials before.
While my stock pile in this time frame is extensive; there is one other player that actually has more then myself. (But I am ahead in gold and lapis, ha!)
The addition of the Fortune enchant (as mentioned above) was a godsend for the diamond supply. But the enchant itself is rather rare; there have only been four Fortune III's, and about six Fortune II's. However a diamond pickax lasts a veritable eternity if used exclusively to harvest other diamonds.
I'm not saying whether this specifically is an exploit, I'm just saying sandbox games can have exploits
i disagree.
a grinder is more inventive and requires a vast knowledge of the game, how redstone works, how mobs work, where to explore to find the resources you need, how to craft your materials, constructing the mob trap, and manipulating the game environment using the resources you collected/explored and discovered."
and what's your point?
say for argument sake what your saying is true - then people are only allowed to play the game, the way YOU play the game?
that doesn't sound very fun and doesn't fit with the model of a sandbox game.
In repose to ^
^ This isn't the same as what i am saying at all. allowing grinders allows people to choose for themselves what way they want to play the game.
what your are suggesting is that YOU choose how the game is played by eliminating grinders and leaving players with only one way to play the game - Your way.
...notice the difference.
Except in the end, the developers have the final word about it and they don't want an infinite iron farm.
No matter what you say the developers can change everything even if you want it or not.
Also you just pick a part of my post which was in response of another thing you said.
It does embody building and operating a mechanism, to some extent, but adventure and exploration? No.
I would rather mine underground or go out and fight mobs if I wanted those things.
for argument sake: say you don't have to explore to make an iron farm (which is false) what do you suppose these players do with their iron after they farm it?
build tools and explore and kill mobs with them... :laugh.gif:
the argument that if someone has a mob farm means they aren't playing the game is ridiculous.