By the way, Minecraft should be optimizing, but NOT for old machines. If you have an old machine, tough luck. Mojang shouldn't hold back higher-end optimizations because people have older machines.
I want Mojang to add a source-like option. For example, if your server is good enough, make it run like the source engine maybe?
It's not that old computers can't run Minecraft it's just people buy horrible computers and expect them to run Minecraft smoothly. I have a computer that's around 10 years old and I can still get around 20fps on maxed settings without optifine on it.
Not really, it's just many people are on a lower budget and get a computer to satisfy them. They find out about Minecraft, buy the game, and cannot even play it.
I've ALWAYS had a problem with a view like this.. I have no problem with mods... and there are some darn good ones, But I have a problem with people like you, promoting a mod.. that does what the original engine should have done!
Its like defending a mod for Skyrim that makes it so you can run on your PC with more then 10 frames a second...
It should have been built into the engine in the first place!!!!!!!
And I have no sympathy for Mojang anymore, they have made 200+ million dollars, they have a dev team of what? 2-5 people? (I honestly don't know)... I mean they have there own freakin convention.. this isn't some dude sitting in his basement trying to program this on the weekends... back in Alpha and Beta when it was just notch.. I could give him some slack..
But all of this crap should have been fixed before it wen't into "release"
And telling people to fix it with a mod is just stupid.. very very stupid.
You seem to know a lot about how to develop a game.
Maybe you should work for Mojang and help them rewrite their engine! I'm sure they would pay you tons!
I agree. It's the same reason why Source Engine games are still around. The engine was solid and people found ways to manipulate it and take advantage of what it truly has to offer. This is why an API would be a game changer for Minecraft.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
caHarkness's Modded Minecraft Server | caharkness.com | 24/7 | Open to spectators, ask to play | View Post
Ideas I would like to see in vanilla Minecraft: 1) A grinding machine — similar to a furnace, but breaks down items like a leather tunic into pieces of leather. 2) Recycling — the ability to smelt metal tools and pieces of armor back into their respective ingots. 3) A hammer — used to break down cobblestone into gravel, and gravel into sand. 4) A study — a work bench that takes an enchanted item and a plain book to extract enchantments at the cost of experience.
I've ALWAYS had a problem with a view like this.. I have no problem with mods... and there are some darn good ones, But I have a problem with people like you, promoting a mod.. that does what the original engine should have done!
Its like defending a mod for Skyrim that makes it so you can run on your PC with more then 10 frames a second...
It should have been built into the engine in the first place!!!!!!!
And I have no sympathy for Mojang anymore, they have made 200+ million dollars, they have a dev team of what? 2-5 people? (I honestly don't know)... I mean they have there own freakin convention.. this isn't some dude sitting in his basement trying to program this on the weekends... back in Alpha and Beta when it was just notch.. I could give him some slack..
But all of this crap should have been fixed before it wen't into "release"
And telling people to fix it with a mod is just stupid.. very very stupid.
I'd love to see you create a game from scratch and see how many people play it daily.
Edit Nevermind. Good job Warfighter67 for posting this point before me
I want Mojang to add a source-like option. For example, if your server is good enough, make it run like the source engine maybe?
Not really, it's just many people are on a lower budget and get a computer to satisfy them. They find out about Minecraft, buy the game, and cannot even play it.
that and 20fps? haha would NEVER fly with a real game.. if Halo came out with 20fps.. people would shat bricks!
....No no it isn't. MC has sold a total of what 8 million copies in the last 4 years?
Black Ops 2 sold 11 million copies in the first week.
Mojang has, what? 14 employees? Compared to the 200-300 that went into Call of Duty Games? That would be 571,428 Copies per Mojang employee, and 44,000 per Treyarch Employee. Arguing over time spans is rather pointless, since it's not like Black Ops 2 wasn't worked on for those years; hell, it was probably in development before Minecraft was even started. Apples and Oranges comparisons, really. We're talking about a company springing out of pretty much nothing from a single game, and another company squeezing more money out of a franchise that is about as imaginative as Mayonnaise on white bread. I mean, I could make the exact same arguments against CoD, since other games- such as Super Mario Bros. 3- have outsold pretty much every single other game ever created since. But like I say- that would be an invalid argument.
Halo 4 sold 4.1 million copies in its FIRST 24 HOURS!! (a rough total of $220 million)
So best game in the world?...I would recommend taking your fanboi shades off.
The Game that sells the most or makes the most money is hardly an indication of the game that is the best. This is an ad populum fallacy at best. I'd argue that "best game" is going to always be subjective. IMO the Best Game ever created (that I've played so far) is Chrono Trigger, for example.
But I am saying.. It could have been SOOOO much better then the confusing mess we have today.
And I must again request some examples of this "confusing mess". Clearly you are an expert on these things, so it stands to reason you would have some interesting information to present to back up these arguments.
Nonetheless, I also would not be surprised that such things are present, since it's practically a given for any software project. If Programmers spent all their time worrying about how neat or future proof their programs were, we'd never get anything done. Compromises have to be made. Especially when you don't have 100+ employees to delegate tasks to.
I'd love to see you create a game from scratch and see how many people play it daily.
Edit Nevermind. Good job Warfighter67 for posting this point before me
Dumbest argument ever..
You must love really crappy movies, and really crappy books. Because I don't think you could make a better movie..
You must really love a crappy car? that gets 2 miles per gallon... because you can't build a car from ground up!
You must love it when a doctor does crappy surgery, and half @sses a job, because you could do better.
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Let me just say this, if another game developer did work like mojang.. the publisher would fire them on the spot..
And just because I don't know how to code a full game (I know a fair amount in java, HTML and C++) does mean I should expect shotty results.
just a stupid argument... but I'm seeing a trend here..
Mojang has, what? 14 employees? Compared to the 200-300 that went into Call of Duty Games? That would be 571,428 Copies per Mojang employee, and 44,000 per blah blah blah blah
You must not have read what I quoted? the guy I quoted was trying to say Minecraft is the most popular game in the whole wide WORLD!!!
and I was saying, that is clearly NOT fact and NOT the case.
You must love really crappy movies, and really crappy books. Because I don't think you could make a better movie..
You must really love a crappy car? that gets 2 miles per gallon... because you can't build a car from ground up!
You must love it when a doctor does crappy surgery, and half @sses a job, because you could do better.
--------------------------------------------------------
Let me just say this, if another game developer did work like mojang.. the publisher would fire them on the spot..
And just because I don't know how to code a full game (I know a fair amount in java, HTML and C++) does mean I should expect shotty results.
just a stupid argument... but I'm seeing a trend here..
You must not have read what I quoted? the guy I quoted was trying to say Minecraft is the most popular game in the whole wide WORLD!!!
and I was saying, that is clearly NOT fact and NOT the case.
Thanks for your time fanboi!
Agreed, Minecraft was probably better off as a small indie game. It got too big for the very few people working on it to handle.
The way this quoting system works on this forum is kinda annoying how it deletes the quote the person you quoted.. anyways..
The guy was braggin how he had like 20fps with MC.. which for MC is not to shabby, but with any REAL game.. Command and Conquer, Forza, Halo, Modern Warfare, the Sim...etc etc.. 20 FPS would be completely unacceptable.
The most played game on Xbox live arcade
In the top 10 most sold games of all time on PC
The most played game on Mac
The video game with the most youtube videos
Over 300'000'000 results on google
Not really, it's just many people are on a lower budget and get a computer to satisfy them. They find out about Minecraft, buy the game, and cannot even play it.
Must be a very low budget then, I got a pre built computer for around 400$ and it's capable of running two Minecraft accounts on max settings and record with fraps at once and still get a steady 40fps. I'm sure if people actually thought a little about it they could build a better computer themselves for even less money then I spent on mine.
The most played game on Xbox live arcade
In the top 10 most sold games of all time on PC
The most played game on Mac
The video game with the most youtube videos
Over 300'000'000 results on google
Yeah....failing
It's pretty up there now, but late 2013 will be it's downfall.
The way this quoting system works on this forum is kinda annoying how it deletes the quote the person you quoted.. anyways..
The guy was braggin how he had like 20fps with MC.. which for MC is not to shabby, but with any REAL game.. Command and Conquer, Forza, Halo, Modern Warfare, the Sim...etc etc.. 20 FPS would be completely unacceptable.
I agree, 20 FPS for Minecraft is fine but just for building. PvP? No way.
Must be a very low budget then, I got a pre built computer for around 400$ and it's capable of running two Minecraft accounts on max settings and record with fraps at once and still get a steady 40fps. I'm sure if people actually thought a little about it they could build a better computer themselves for even less money then I spent on mine.
I agree, building it yourself is the way to go. But some prebuilt companies love ripping you off.
Maybe you should work for Mojang and help them rewrite their engine! I'm sure they would pay you tons!
My reaction to most people that try to tell game devs how to code. Many people assume that coding is easy, and that anyone can make a game in their free time. Of the 10 people in my AP CS course at school, three of them started at the ap level because they thought it would be easy. One of them thinks he is good at it simply because he is good at other ap classes. He thinks its ok to do something different than what is asked, as long as it outputs the same thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary notation, those who don't, and those who think this is in binary.
My reaction to most people that try to tell game devs how to code. Many people assume that coding is easy, and that anyone can make a game in their free time. Of the 10 people in my AP CS course at school, three of them started at the ap level because they thought it would be easy. One of them thinks he is good at it simply because he is good at other ap classes. He thinks its ok to do something different than what is asked, as long as it outputs the same thing.
Actually, once you learn something simple like Python and get comfortable with the way you make simple games, coding is easy.
that and 20fps? haha would NEVER fly with a real game.. if Halo came out with 20fps.. people would shat bricks!
Halo can barely run on my Quad Core at 20fps. Well that's not true, I can get it into the high 40's if I disable a lot.
From what I recall, Halo would occasional bonk down to around 14-15 FPS on the original Console. Though That is anecdotal (I've never actually played it) it would explain why it runs so crappily on a machine with about 128 times as much memory, four processors that are factors faster than the Coppermine, etc.
I don't know about more recent releases. Most games run pretty terribly on even modern machines when they are released, but it more depends on what the game was built on. Doom 3 ran pretty crappy when it was first released on systems that were pretty modern at the time, but nowadays we have no problems running it at all even on what might be considered a low-end PC.
Minecraft, unfortunately, because of it's particular requisite features and focus on orthogonal shapes paired with random terrain generation, cannot benefit from one of the biggest framerate boosters for other games, particularly Level of Detail Optimization. Far away objects might have less detailed textures or, more helpfully, use models that have far less detail and use fewer polygons. Unfortunately this is difficult- if not impossible- for Minecraft, because any reduced detail would very likely make things noticable, and a LoD change that wasn't noticable probably wouldn't be worth the effort. The main thing for other games is they are dealing with static stuff; they can test and see whether the LoD concepts they come up with work in-game and how they reduce FPS. Because MC generates stuff randomly, it's impossible to fully test all the possible scenarios- so either the LoD changes have to be very conservative (and pretty much worthless) or they will introduce god knows how many bugs down the line.
The best I can think of on my own would be some sort of weird cache where the appearance of a chunk from any of the chunks that are on the view limit from that chunk are saved as bitmaps, and then when you are looking at the chunk from that chunk it looks it up and renders that. But that would be quite a lot of data to generate, and it would need to be regenerated when the chunk changed, and then you have the issue of height differences and how they would factor into it, etc.
You must not have read what I quoted? the guy I quoted was trying to say Minecraft is the most popular game in the whole wide WORLD!!!
Wouldn't it have made more sense to quote the highest selling game of all time instead of CoD? The time frame was also irrelevant; and even then, highest selling game has no bearing on what is popular. And you cannot really determine popularity based on any statistic, either. Which is why their argument- as well as your rebuttal- are both invalid.
My reaction to most people that try to tell game devs how to code. Many people assume that coding is easy, and that anyone can make a game in their free time. Of the 10 people in my AP CS course at school, three of them started at the ap level because they thought it would be easy. One of them thinks he is good at it simply because he is good at other ap classes. He thinks its ok to do something different than what is asked, as long as it outputs the same thing.
So what you are saying is, just because you don't know how to do a job.. then you don't expect others to know how to do there job?
Coding for MC might be hard, but if Jeb and dinnerbone (doesn't he have a real name?) if they don't know how to code, you can put "hiring them" into the mismanagement category that the OP was talking about.
No I couldn't code minecraft, but just because I don't know how to do someone elses job, doesn't mean I don't expect them to know how to do it.
I know a fair about cars, and working on them... but there are some jobs that are just beyond me, then I take it to a mechanic.. and I EXPECT him to know how to do his job.
I want Mojang to add a source-like option. For example, if your server is good enough, make it run like the source engine maybe?
Not really, it's just many people are on a lower budget and get a computer to satisfy them. They find out about Minecraft, buy the game, and cannot even play it.
You seem to know a lot about how to develop a game.
Maybe you should work for Mojang and help them rewrite their engine! I'm sure they would pay you tons!
Click the picture!
-Derek Shunia
caHarkness's Modded Minecraft Server | caharkness.com | 24/7 | Open to spectators, ask to play | View Post
Ideas I would like to see in vanilla Minecraft: 1) A grinding machine — similar to a furnace, but breaks down items like a leather tunic into pieces of leather. 2) Recycling — the ability to smelt metal tools and pieces of armor back into their respective ingots. 3) A hammer — used to break down cobblestone into gravel, and gravel into sand. 4) A study — a work bench that takes an enchanted item and a plain book to extract enchantments at the cost of experience.
I'd love to see you create a game from scratch and see how many people play it daily.
Edit Nevermind. Good job Warfighter67 for posting this point before me
His point is, Mojang is quite unprofessional. The coding in Minecraft is very sloppy for such a big company.
that and 20fps? haha would NEVER fly with a real game.. if Halo came out with 20fps.. people would shat bricks!
I don't get what you're saying...
Mojang has, what? 14 employees? Compared to the 200-300 that went into Call of Duty Games? That would be 571,428 Copies per Mojang employee, and 44,000 per Treyarch Employee. Arguing over time spans is rather pointless, since it's not like Black Ops 2 wasn't worked on for those years; hell, it was probably in development before Minecraft was even started. Apples and Oranges comparisons, really. We're talking about a company springing out of pretty much nothing from a single game, and another company squeezing more money out of a franchise that is about as imaginative as Mayonnaise on white bread. I mean, I could make the exact same arguments against CoD, since other games- such as Super Mario Bros. 3- have outsold pretty much every single other game ever created since. But like I say- that would be an invalid argument.
The Game that sells the most or makes the most money is hardly an indication of the game that is the best. This is an ad populum fallacy at best. I'd argue that "best game" is going to always be subjective. IMO the Best Game ever created (that I've played so far) is Chrono Trigger, for example.
And I must again request some examples of this "confusing mess". Clearly you are an expert on these things, so it stands to reason you would have some interesting information to present to back up these arguments.
Nonetheless, I also would not be surprised that such things are present, since it's practically a given for any software project. If Programmers spent all their time worrying about how neat or future proof their programs were, we'd never get anything done. Compromises have to be made. Especially when you don't have 100+ employees to delegate tasks to.
Dumbest argument ever..
You must love really crappy movies, and really crappy books. Because I don't think you could make a better movie..
You must really love a crappy car? that gets 2 miles per gallon... because you can't build a car from ground up!
You must love it when a doctor does crappy surgery, and half @sses a job, because you could do better.
--------------------------------------------------------
Let me just say this, if another game developer did work like mojang.. the publisher would fire them on the spot..
And just because I don't know how to code a full game (I know a fair amount in java, HTML and C++) does mean I should expect shotty results.
just a stupid argument... but I'm seeing a trend here..
You must not have read what I quoted? the guy I quoted was trying to say Minecraft is the most popular game in the whole wide WORLD!!!
and I was saying, that is clearly NOT fact and NOT the case.
Thanks for your time fanboi!
Agreed, Minecraft was probably better off as a small indie game. It got too big for the very few people working on it to handle.
The way this quoting system works on this forum is kinda annoying how it deletes the quote the person you quoted.. anyways..
The guy was braggin how he had like 20fps with MC.. which for MC is not to shabby, but with any REAL game.. Command and Conquer, Forza, Halo, Modern Warfare, the Sim...etc etc.. 20 FPS would be completely unacceptable.
Not failing...but not good.
Must be a very low budget then, I got a pre built computer for around 400$ and it's capable of running two Minecraft accounts on max settings and record with fraps at once and still get a steady 40fps. I'm sure if people actually thought a little about it they could build a better computer themselves for even less money then I spent on mine.
It's pretty up there now, but late 2013 will be it's downfall.
I agree, 20 FPS for Minecraft is fine but just for building. PvP? No way.
I agree, building it yourself is the way to go. But some prebuilt companies love ripping you off.
My reaction to most people that try to tell game devs how to code. Many people assume that coding is easy, and that anyone can make a game in their free time. Of the 10 people in my AP CS course at school, three of them started at the ap level because they thought it would be easy. One of them thinks he is good at it simply because he is good at other ap classes. He thinks its ok to do something different than what is asked, as long as it outputs the same thing.
Actually, once you learn something simple like Python and get comfortable with the way you make simple games, coding is easy.
Halo can barely run on my Quad Core at 20fps. Well that's not true, I can get it into the high 40's if I disable a lot.
From what I recall, Halo would occasional bonk down to around 14-15 FPS on the original Console. Though That is anecdotal (I've never actually played it) it would explain why it runs so crappily on a machine with about 128 times as much memory, four processors that are factors faster than the Coppermine, etc.
I don't know about more recent releases. Most games run pretty terribly on even modern machines when they are released, but it more depends on what the game was built on. Doom 3 ran pretty crappy when it was first released on systems that were pretty modern at the time, but nowadays we have no problems running it at all even on what might be considered a low-end PC.
Minecraft, unfortunately, because of it's particular requisite features and focus on orthogonal shapes paired with random terrain generation, cannot benefit from one of the biggest framerate boosters for other games, particularly Level of Detail Optimization. Far away objects might have less detailed textures or, more helpfully, use models that have far less detail and use fewer polygons. Unfortunately this is difficult- if not impossible- for Minecraft, because any reduced detail would very likely make things noticable, and a LoD change that wasn't noticable probably wouldn't be worth the effort. The main thing for other games is they are dealing with static stuff; they can test and see whether the LoD concepts they come up with work in-game and how they reduce FPS. Because MC generates stuff randomly, it's impossible to fully test all the possible scenarios- so either the LoD changes have to be very conservative (and pretty much worthless) or they will introduce god knows how many bugs down the line.
The best I can think of on my own would be some sort of weird cache where the appearance of a chunk from any of the chunks that are on the view limit from that chunk are saved as bitmaps, and then when you are looking at the chunk from that chunk it looks it up and renders that. But that would be quite a lot of data to generate, and it would need to be regenerated when the chunk changed, and then you have the issue of height differences and how they would factor into it, etc.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to quote the highest selling game of all time instead of CoD? The time frame was also irrelevant; and even then, highest selling game has no bearing on what is popular. And you cannot really determine popularity based on any statistic, either. Which is why their argument- as well as your rebuttal- are both invalid.
What a curious statement.
So what you are saying is, just because you don't know how to do a job.. then you don't expect others to know how to do there job?
Coding for MC might be hard, but if Jeb and dinnerbone (doesn't he have a real name?) if they don't know how to code, you can put "hiring them" into the mismanagement category that the OP was talking about.
No I couldn't code minecraft, but just because I don't know how to do someone elses job, doesn't mean I don't expect them to know how to do it.
I know a fair about cars, and working on them... but there are some jobs that are just beyond me, then I take it to a mechanic.. and I EXPECT him to know how to do his job.