Money definitely isn't my strong suit either, although I definitely forgot about kick starter which actually could be quite handy. Servers aren't run on hopes and dreams in the realm of capitalism and many have pledged that they wouldn't mind offering money to see this in motion. I'd like to see a paypal account happening although I'm not sure if I have the logistics to create/handle one.
There will be no 'bartering' as the 'first early economies' simply because the fact is that 'to barter' is not an economy.
The first economy's will be individual players running round punching trees, mining cobble, iron and coal. They are engaging in economic activity and hence are an economy unto themselves. At some time during this point they will be chatting using chat, and one player will ask another to collect some resource for them, or give them something they have.
The other player may or may not oblige, and hand over/collect the resource in question. However neither player will have asked for 'payment' rather the entire trade will have been conducted on trust and cooperation. i.e. if Albert helps me turn my dirt shack into a wooden castle, I can ask him to help me with Betty's Bat Cave and so on.
Rather than quantify 'work value' or 'labour' in terms of X blocks of Y, most if not all players will rely on a system of trust and cooperation assuming that in terms of mutuality they can ask somebody for help.
Without any other forms of interference, this would generally be 'the model' for all economic activity. A moneyless society.
Where it will change is when you have specific projects, or groups of organised players. For example, say a group of griefers exist on the server, well they are going to everybody off and steal everything they can if they aren't stopped. Hence another group of players set themselves up as 'guards' to deal with 'the bandits' in so doing they may ask the general community for a small payment in arms and armament to allow them to do this because they are going to have to do a lot of PVP, and any time spent in a mine getting iron, is time the greifers have to trash peoples houses.
Hence you will see a service based economy forming as the 2nd type of economic practice, you give me the resources X to allow me to carry out activity Y. Again this is not a payment, this is a mutual agreement, in essence the resource 'gifter' is loaning/giving resources based on trust that the 'service provider' will provide that service. Here the value of the service is 'unvalued' because it is priceless. More specifically, you cannot put a price on the service.
The question of 'money' arises when you have to compare value for value. Services are typical 'unvalued' between pairs of individuals or individuals with groups. However when groups deal with groups, and the 'services to be rendered' are more complicated than simple 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' the groups need to find some way to come to an understanding.
Our group of guards for instance has well established itself protecting a group of other players trying to build a giant pink pig for instance, around their nice little homes. However the guards are getting a bit bored of fighting the bandits and not being able to build their own stuff for once. Hence the guards talk to some of the more miner orientated players and ask if they can have a load of cobble and things to build their own stuff nearby. Unfortunately non of the miners on their own have quite enough stuff perhaps to build the 'great wall of cobble', so they talk across chat to find out who has got loads of resources.
In doing so yes there are miners with lots of cobble and stuff, but some of them had their own plans for those resources, hence they come back to the guards asking if the guards could enchant a few picks or swords, or hand over arrows and a bow in fair trade. In return for a stack or 10 of cobble.
Both parties bring the goods to the great pink pig construction site and exchange goods at an agreed price. This is the 3rd form of economic activity, mutual exchange.
Betty watches all this and discovers 'the price' of one bow is equal to 2 stacks of cobble, and so quoting the precedent between the miners and guards is able to establish 'the value' of a named item. This is step 4, determining a value.
Once value has been established the only step left towards a currency is to find a universal medium of exchange. This is generally something that doesn't otherwise have 'real life value' i.e. grain is a poor medium of exchange because you can eat it; it doesn't store value. Likewise Jade isn't a good medium, because while you can store value in it it's not able to be found everywhere. Finally whatever is currency is best not something that is easily 'found' because otherwise an individual can go out 'searching for currency'.
Since nearly everything in minecraft has 'a use' there is no decent currency available that cannot be 'farmed' or hold a steady value. Because of this it is unlikely that a common currency could develop in a minecraft world populated by players, different people will value different commodities and as such will find it hard to establish a common unit of exchange.
You shall see if this theory meters out in practice.
There will be no 'bartering' as the 'first early economies' simply because the fact is that 'to barter' is not an economy.
The first economy's will be individual players running round punching trees, mining cobble, iron and coal. They are engaging in economic activity and hence are an economy unto themselves. At some time during this point they will be chatting using chat, and one player will ask another to collect some resource for them, or give them something they have.
The other player may or may not oblige, and hand over/collect the resource in question. However neither player will have asked for 'payment' rather the entire trade will have been conducted on trust and cooperation. i.e. if Albert helps me turn my dirt shack into a wooden castle, I can ask him to help me with Betty's Bat Cave and so on.
Rather than quantify 'work value' or 'labour' in terms of X blocks of Y, most if not all players will rely on a system of trust and cooperation assuming that in terms of mutuality they can ask somebody for help.
Without any other forms of interference, this would generally be 'the model' for all economic activity. A moneyless society.
Where it will change is when you have specific projects, or groups of organised players. For example, say a group of griefers exist on the server, well they are going to everybody off and steal everything they can if they aren't stopped. Hence another group of players set themselves up as 'guards' to deal with 'the bandits' in so doing they may ask the general community for a small payment in arms and armament to allow them to do this because they are going to have to do a lot of PVP, and any time spent in a mine getting iron, is time the greifers have to trash peoples houses.
Hence you will see a service based economy forming as the 2nd type of economic practice, you give me the resources X to allow me to carry out activity Y. Again this is not a payment, this is a mutual agreement, in essence the resource 'gifter' is loaning/giving resources based on trust that the 'service provider' will provide that service. Here the value of the service is 'unvalued' because it is priceless. More specifically, you cannot put a price on the service.
The question of 'money' arises when you have to compare value for value. Services are typical 'unvalued' between pairs of individuals or individuals with groups. However when groups deal with groups, and the 'services to be rendered' are more complicated than simple 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' the groups need to find some way to come to an understanding.
Our group of guards for instance has well established itself protecting a group of other players trying to build a giant pink pig for instance, around their nice little homes. However the guards are getting a bit bored of fighting the bandits and not being able to build their own stuff for once. Hence the guards talk to some of the more miner orientated players and ask if they can have a load of cobble and things to build their own stuff nearby. Unfortunately non of the miners on their own have quite enough stuff perhaps to build the 'great wall of cobble', so they talk across chat to find out who has got loads of resources.
In doing so yes there are miners with lots of cobble and stuff, but some of them had their own plans for those resources, hence they come back to the guards asking if the guards could enchant a few picks or swords, or hand over arrows and a bow in fair trade. In return for a stack or 10 of cobble.
Both parties bring the goods to the great pink pig construction site and exchange goods at an agreed price. This is the 3rd form of economic activity, mutual exchange.
Betty watches all this and discovers 'the price' of one bow is equal to 2 stacks of cobble, and so quoting the precedent between the miners and guards is able to establish 'the value' of a named item. This is step 4, determining a value.
Once value has been established the only step left towards a currency is to find a universal medium of exchange. This is generally something that doesn't otherwise have 'real life value' i.e. grain is a poor medium of exchange because you can eat it; it doesn't store value. Likewise Jade isn't a good medium, because while you can store value in it it's not able to be found everywhere. Finally whatever is currency is best not something that is easily 'found' because otherwise an individual can go out 'searching for currency'.
Since nearly everything in minecraft has 'a use' there is no decent currency available that cannot be 'farmed' or hold a steady value. Because of this it is unlikely that a common currency could develop in a minecraft world populated by players, different people will value different commodities and as such will find it hard to establish a common unit of exchange.
You shall see if this theory meters out in practice.
well this is certainly deep, we are looking for the best way to finance this lol.
I beg to differ on your currency pessimism. There are most definitely items that have no specific use, player-specific-signed books being one of them. They cannot simply be farmed by any old player, only the player who can specifically sign their name. I'd like to reference a topic of mine that goes into this in more detail,
I have no idea about the nether. But for currency, I have tried wood before in a limited wood environment. It becomes amazing as currency. I think the nether should be limited and it kinda has to be limited since the worldborder is 3,000 by 3,000.
The nether will thus be 250^2, in ratio. This will be rather small, but make for a competitive political landscape. The risk of course is that farm-able resources that would usually be in infinite supply could be destroyed, which would result in lack of meaning for the nether late-game with everything of value plundered. It would be the easiest solution to the nether question.
An alternate solution could be to make the ratio 1:1 using a nether plug-in, this is a little more complex.
The nether will thus be 250^2, in ratio. This will be rather small, but make for a competitive political landscape. The risk of course is that farm-able resources that would usually be in infinite supply could be destroyed, which would result in lack of meaning for the nether late-game with everything of value plundered. It would be the easiest solution to the nether question.
An alternate solution could be to make the ratio 1:1 using a nether plug-in, this is a little more complex.
Making it even more worthless is that due to the complicatedness of portal travel, you would never be sure where you would end up when using a portal to go in and out of the nether, thus making it nearly useless for transportation late in the simulation when there will be portals everywhere. If you have ever played on a survival multiplayer server you will know what I am talking about, you go into the nether one portal, come out the same portal, but then pop out in a completely different location.
It's ALWAYS theory. Theory is the cognitive framework we construct to make sense out of facts. It is ALSO a system, of course; system and theory being variants of a similar concept.
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For philosophy, law, science, religion and other topics: A Blog of Tom
ok, an update is in order. I have finished work on a few beautiful islands, working on the last 2 places then we figure out the server situation and such.
Full support. it would be awesome to play a minecraft with a growing economy, Taxes, a government, Politics, Salaries, jobs, cities, and so on. Death should be a temporary ban. how about 5 minutes? and when you join all your stats reset. Though a Mod/plugin of this magnitude would take a LONG time. it would be like tale of kingdoms on steroids. It would also have to add alot of modern tech items if you dont want it to be a 14th century Economy, which would be awesome, burning people on the stake, Executioners, and a bunch of other things. I would love something like this. when is the map/server planned for release or beta? I would love to become a tester.
Full support. it would be awesome to play a minecraft with a growing economy, Taxes, a government, Politics, Salaries, jobs, cities, and so on. Death should be a temporary ban. how about 5 minutes? and when you join all your stats reset. Though a Mod/plugin of this magnitude would take a LONG time. it would be like tale of kingdoms on steroids. It would also have to add alot of modern tech items if you dont want it to be a 14th century Economy, which would be awesome, burning people on the stake, Executioners, and a bunch of other things. I would love something like this. when is the map/server planned for release or beta? I would love to become a tester.
I have no idea about the testing stage yet since the map is being finalized and such, but Most of this will probably become able once the mod api comes out. the possibilities are endless for the future.
What if there were a few larger deposits of ores scattered across the map? Last time I checked the target time for each simulation was still two hours, and that might not be long enough for people to gather a substantial amount of resources to do stuff with, and people may spend the entire time gathering resources, rather than other things such as interaction with other civilizations. Having resource rich areas like this might also promote the development of cities near them.
Should we create a website for this server? A place that's not these forums were we can discuss This idea and how its progressing, and a place to show update and how close we are to launching.
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GENERATION 29: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
GENERATION 30: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
The first economy's will be individual players running round punching trees, mining cobble, iron and coal. They are engaging in economic activity and hence are an economy unto themselves. At some time during this point they will be chatting using chat, and one player will ask another to collect some resource for them, or give them something they have.
The other player may or may not oblige, and hand over/collect the resource in question. However neither player will have asked for 'payment' rather the entire trade will have been conducted on trust and cooperation. i.e. if Albert helps me turn my dirt shack into a wooden castle, I can ask him to help me with Betty's Bat Cave and so on.
Rather than quantify 'work value' or 'labour' in terms of X blocks of Y, most if not all players will rely on a system of trust and cooperation assuming that in terms of mutuality they can ask somebody for help.
Without any other forms of interference, this would generally be 'the model' for all economic activity. A moneyless society.
Where it will change is when you have specific projects, or groups of organised players. For example, say a group of griefers exist on the server, well they are going to everybody off and steal everything they can if they aren't stopped. Hence another group of players set themselves up as 'guards' to deal with 'the bandits' in so doing they may ask the general community for a small payment in arms and armament to allow them to do this because they are going to have to do a lot of PVP, and any time spent in a mine getting iron, is time the greifers have to trash peoples houses.
Hence you will see a service based economy forming as the 2nd type of economic practice, you give me the resources X to allow me to carry out activity Y. Again this is not a payment, this is a mutual agreement, in essence the resource 'gifter' is loaning/giving resources based on trust that the 'service provider' will provide that service. Here the value of the service is 'unvalued' because it is priceless. More specifically, you cannot put a price on the service.
The question of 'money' arises when you have to compare value for value. Services are typical 'unvalued' between pairs of individuals or individuals with groups. However when groups deal with groups, and the 'services to be rendered' are more complicated than simple 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' the groups need to find some way to come to an understanding.
Our group of guards for instance has well established itself protecting a group of other players trying to build a giant pink pig for instance, around their nice little homes. However the guards are getting a bit bored of fighting the bandits and not being able to build their own stuff for once. Hence the guards talk to some of the more miner orientated players and ask if they can have a load of cobble and things to build their own stuff nearby. Unfortunately non of the miners on their own have quite enough stuff perhaps to build the 'great wall of cobble', so they talk across chat to find out who has got loads of resources.
In doing so yes there are miners with lots of cobble and stuff, but some of them had their own plans for those resources, hence they come back to the guards asking if the guards could enchant a few picks or swords, or hand over arrows and a bow in fair trade. In return for a stack or 10 of cobble.
Both parties bring the goods to the great pink pig construction site and exchange goods at an agreed price. This is the 3rd form of economic activity, mutual exchange.
Betty watches all this and discovers 'the price' of one bow is equal to 2 stacks of cobble, and so quoting the precedent between the miners and guards is able to establish 'the value' of a named item. This is step 4, determining a value.
Once value has been established the only step left towards a currency is to find a universal medium of exchange. This is generally something that doesn't otherwise have 'real life value' i.e. grain is a poor medium of exchange because you can eat it; it doesn't store value. Likewise Jade isn't a good medium, because while you can store value in it it's not able to be found everywhere. Finally whatever is currency is best not something that is easily 'found' because otherwise an individual can go out 'searching for currency'.
Since nearly everything in minecraft has 'a use' there is no decent currency available that cannot be 'farmed' or hold a steady value. Because of this it is unlikely that a common currency could develop in a minecraft world populated by players, different people will value different commodities and as such will find it hard to establish a common unit of exchange.
You shall see if this theory meters out in practice.
well this is certainly deep, we are looking for the best way to finance this lol.
I beg to differ on your currency pessimism. There are most definitely items that have no specific use, player-specific-signed books being one of them. They cannot simply be farmed by any old player, only the player who can specifically sign their name. I'd like to reference a topic of mine that goes into this in more detail,
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1442794-books-as-currency/#entry17533928
It disproves the extremely common misconception that there is no way to form a stable, reliable, and non-farmable currency in Minecraft.
It's more of a system rather than a theory, just saying.
Contains Pachebel's Canon made with noteblocks, a working Rubik's cube made with pistons, and the ultimate TNT cannon.
GENERATION 30: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
The nether will thus be 250^2, in ratio. This will be rather small, but make for a competitive political landscape. The risk of course is that farm-able resources that would usually be in infinite supply could be destroyed, which would result in lack of meaning for the nether late-game with everything of value plundered. It would be the easiest solution to the nether question.
An alternate solution could be to make the ratio 1:1 using a nether plug-in, this is a little more complex.
Making it even more worthless is that due to the complicatedness of portal travel, you would never be sure where you would end up when using a portal to go in and out of the nether, thus making it nearly useless for transportation late in the simulation when there will be portals everywhere. If you have ever played on a survival multiplayer server you will know what I am talking about, you go into the nether one portal, come out the same portal, but then pop out in a completely different location.
Check out my bad CTM map reviews here.
Come visit Mocha's Sandbox!
I think that would be fairly nice, the only problem is blazes and withers...
I mean if there isn't a nether fortress...
I have no idea about the testing stage yet since the map is being finalized and such, but Most of this will probably become able once the mod api comes out. the possibilities are endless for the future.
He raises a good point. Poonjab, do the ore veins look bigger and more sporadic than normal?
GENERATION 30: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.