I totally agree, if people ignore the crappy servers, they will die. However, too many people have bad IQ levels, so the economy gets inflated...
Also, my theory on this subject is. Mojang noticed that MineCraft realms was a success since basically mojang provides a minecraft server for you, but they have COMPLETE control over it.
Now they want to do the same with those that are not using realms, good luck with that.
I thought this exactly. It's not right.
From what I can tell from the EULA.
permission systems are now officially pointless
it would be near impossible to have a pay for play server now that you don't have a freebie class of player that can see what they are missing.
the only alternative to #2 is to have a sister freebie server that advertises the features of the paid for server, but according to the EULA, the paid for server can't have things that the freebie server doesn't, so that in the end you are only offering better performance.
It's fracking insane. and wholly unenforceable.
Sounds more like someone got tired of Minecraft and is seeking ways to crash it economically. This will do that.
Holy Steve, a lot of internet lawyers in this thread. I'll get the popcorn...
Notch, and later Mojang, fell asleep on the guard for far too long and allowed the community to become this way over time, and indeed it is going to be expensive and difficult to try and cure it at this point. I wish them best of luck, however they have planned to do it.
Curing is the wrong attitude. Instead they need to embrace the community and modify their EULA to match it. Not try to enforce it.
it would be near impossible to have a pay for play server now that you don't have a freebie class of player that can see what they are missing.
the only alternative to #2 is to have a sister freebie server that advertises the features of the paid for server, but according to the EULA, the paid for server can't have things that the freebie server doesn't, so that in the end you are only offering better performance.
It's fracking insane. and wholly unenforceable.
Sounds more like someone got tired of Minecraft and is seeking ways to crash it economically. This will do that.
Curing is the wrong attitude. Instead they need to embrace the community and modify their EULA to match it. Not try to enforce it.
and the other real problem are all the blind people who are thinking this will make minecraft servers even more fun.
No it will not. It will lead to watered down servers with less ram/player lots/ memory/etc.. due to not being able to run off of purchases of packages. Less plugins, only vanilla servers will prosper.
I’m going to bring this up since I have not seen it mentioned yet, if you use Bukkit, you are not using Mojang software to host.
Bukkit is an independent open source project by the Bukkit team, just because you use Minecraft by Mojang to connect to a Bukkit server, it does not mean Mojang can tell Bukkit servers how to run their servers.
Let me put it this way, let’s say you use internet explorer by Microsoft, Just because you use Internet Explorer, Microsoft cannot tell google to shut down, because google is owned by google.
Minecraft is by Mojang and Bukkit is by Bukkit, Because Bukkit does not use any code from mine craft you are not required to follow the rules set forth by Mojang.
##This only applies to Bukkit servers, Vanilla servers are by Mojang and are thus bound by the EULA you agreed upon prior to download or launch of application.##
The Bukkit API is by the Bukkit team. Craftbukkit which is used to actually run a server is still vanilla Minecraft, just with the Bukkit code grafted on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Spigot/CraftBukkit plugins: TallNether - Generate a 256-block high nether
Good that Mojang finally fights the pay to play concept a majority of servers are using. Hopefully theres enough execution of that new clause so those "servers" get extincted soon enough.
Just don't play on those servers. That's all there is to it.
If Mojang owned the servers in question, and they do not, they'd have a legal claim to what was charged. At most they have a legal claim to a percentage of the monies collected.
I'd love it if people played on my servers, but they don't, cause I don't charge for awesome ingame things, you have access to all of it. Nothing to entice you to rank up. Guess what I use a cheap hosting provider, two of them. One of them is mondo crappy, the other is good but only for bukkit and tekkit. I can't host what I want cause no money comes in, there is no reason for folks to donate. Why would you.
It's like going to McDonald's and they give you a free burger every day and then one day they say, hey you gotta start paying for that. Do you start paying for it? or do you stop going to McDonald's?
On small scale servers, there's really no way to enforce this. Donate, owner gets email, In game executes /give. Unless Mojang hired a secret police force, this would be impossible.
and the other real problem are all the blind people who are thinking this will make minecraft servers even more fun.
No it will not. It will lead to watered down servers with less ram/player lots/ memory/etc.. due to not being able to run off of purchases of packages. Less plugins, only vanilla servers will prosper.
Exactly. The Minecraft server hosting market is essentially dead now unless the EULA is updated to accommodate the existing working dynamic.
Mojang responds directly to questions about the EULA (both current, and future versions), tackling a number of hot topics relating to servers head on. Hopefully, this will answer a number of questions that have been flying around for the last few days!
HAHA Their is no way im going to lisin this or im going to lose alot of money by making every1 pay the same thing
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Proud Owner of Dragon Assault! Join us! 192.99.32.133:25612
That 3rd statement is my favorite. I refuse to go on servers where you can buy kits and such. It just ruins the fun when you don't want to spend any money or can't spend any money on a server and someone else buys something and become overpowered if your doing PVP and such. One thing that is cool about MC is how online is free. Why should someone have to pay to be on the same level as someone else? I also like the 2nd statement. I played on a server for quite some time (I've not been on for over a month or two and its closed now), and if you "donated" you would get access to creative and such. I never wanted to spend any money, and pretty much everyone else was in creative and is was so unbearable.
Which begs the question, if it was so unbearable, why did you keep playing it? After all you found that server online somehow, you could have easily found another one.
"So long as the fee is the same for all players, you are allowed to charge for access to your server. You are not allowed to split your playerbase into paying, and non-paying users, nor can you restrict gameplay elements to different tiers of player."
I think this is far too broad, because now all creative servers will no longer be able to
- Give donators access to World Edit, because then random trolling non-donators would have to have access to World Edit, and could grief the server by abusing the plugin to crash the server.
- Give donators additional Plotme plots.
- Give donators access to a free build area, that random people would constantly grief if any old player who had just joined could access it.
- Give ranks and benefits to players who earn them with good builds.
These rules will kill creative servers like TCS, Vaduct's server, and WoK.
These creative servers aren't doing anything evil, they can't survive without breaking these rules, because making a creative server pay-to-join would turn away 99.9% of players, and having no incentive to get people to dontate means that theres no way they'll get enough donations to help them run the server.
Over all, I think this is really just a shotgun solution, and I think Mojang should sort these problems out on a case by case basis. Sure, charging 1000$ for a set of super enchanted gear on one server is stupid, but you can't just ban all transactions. I think someone should be allowed to pay 10$ to get access to flashing disco armour or World Edit.
As the owner of a 3 year old server, I'd like to add my opinion.
Most large servers are expensive, and many depend on donations from the community to survive and continue running. I am confident that without donation incentives my server will still generate the needed income to pay the semi-annual bill. If the server is well run, people will donate out of kindness and their generosity will help to secure the future of the server.
I do feel that not letting server owners reward these acts of kindness may result in many of the servers that make up the fabric of our fabulous community being killed off. On my server, TNT use is restricted to donors only, as by donating they have proven their support to the server, and there is a much smaller number of donators than regular players. We offer TNT for donors as a security measure, to keep the server playable and enjoyable for all our players. It worries me that in this instance, either removing TNT entirely or allowing it for everyone will be the only way forward - both options are not ideal.
Hosting a server is a hobby of mine, I have a full time job, children, the full works. I rely on donations to keep the server running. I feel that removing the ability the server owners to "give back to the donors", however big or small it may be, is catastrophic. I feel Mojang is trying hard to increase the popularity of their own branded "Realms" servers. To do this, their only option is to restrict and govern servers that aren't theirs, in way which is harmful to the health of the community.
You will squeeze the life out of many servers and eventually lead to closures. Can you not see that?
I love and hate threads like this. I love hearing peoples opinions on things but I fear for the future when I see so many people are ignorant about how the real world works.
I want to take a minute to restate some things that have been said before but are still being ignored or misunderstood. Please remember that I understand that my posts are just my opinion. IANAL and that I am commenting on how I think things work in the USA. Your local laws my be different or I could simply be wrong.
1. They are NOT making the server license more restrictive. They are actually granting more rights than the current license. From what I have seen, the original/current license forbids all commercial use. That means under the original license you are in violation of your license if you run a server and receive any money from your players. (Sharing the cost of a server is not the same thing.)
2. Running a modded server does not change anything. Even a full reimplementation of the server written from scratch is a derivative work if the programmers had any exposure to the decompiled software owned by Mojang. (Search on "COMPAQ, IBM PC BIOS" for more info.)
3. No one has ever purchased Minecraft server. It has always been downloadable for free under a specific license. As such, none of the consumer protections for purchases come into play. If you want to use Mojang's server software legally you have to agree to their rules. (I bother to say this because of all the ignorant "I bought Minecraft, I will do whatever I want!" posts.)
Here are the reasons I personally would follow their rules.
1. Karma. If I ignore the wishes and rights of the owner of a creative work like Minecraft, why should I expect anyone to respect my wishes and rights for anything I create?
2. Reputation. Why would anyone who enjoys Minecraft associate or do business with someone who does not respect the rights of the creator/owner of Minecraft? Doing so just gives Mojang incentive to release less information to the community and become more hostile to server admins in general.
3. DRM. If too many choose to ignore Mojang's license terms, they may choose to find technical means to enforce them. Do you really want Mojang to start down the DRM path? Here are some of the things I see coming if that happens:
a. Server Login. They could easily recode the server software to not run without logging into a Mojang account. (Yes it could be hacked out, but thanks to code obfuscation, a new hack would have to be created for every release.)
b. Enforced code signatures. To the best of my knowledge, Java supports verifying a signature on classes before allowing them to run. This would make life much harder for anyone how wants to modify the server software. It would also make all current mods unusable.
c. Removal of the Offline option. This would require all of your users to login with their Mojang account giving them a very simple way to force you to follow their terms.
4. Legal trouble. Why would I knowingly put time and energy into running a server if I knew that the way I was running the server might cause Mojang to send my ISP or server host a cease and desist letter that could take me offline for weeks or possibly forever? This may be specific to the US, but Mojang can easily get any server taken offline by sending a single DMCA Takedown letter to the ISP or hosting company.
I don't run a server for anyone but friends, but I still think this is the reality of how things are.
That's like a family member reporting another family member for murdering someone.
NO, no it isn't. A player on a minecraft server is essentially anonymous unless they gave out too much personal information. Unlike a family member that can report to an 'authority' anything they want for any reason they want without any real consequence.
I’m going to bring this up since I have not seen it mentioned yet, if you use Bukkit, you are not using Mojang software to host.
Bukkit is an independent open source project by the Bukkit team, just because you use Minecraft by Mojang to connect to a Bukkit server, it does not mean Mojang can tell Bukkit servers how to run their servers.
Even if there was a version of Bukkit that ran without any of Mojang's code OR assets being present on the server it would still be a "derivative work" from a copyright standpoint unless it was written without looking at the decompiled Minecraft code. Since there is no published Minecraft Client API, I am going to assume that Bukkit is a derivative work. As such, it is my understanding that unless the Bukkit team has a separate license with Mojang, everyone running a Bukkit server is required to follow the Minecraft server license.
Agreed, but why would we want everyone to pay a smaller amount overall to support the server they enjoy? That makes absolutely no sense, I'd rather pay larger sums of money for content that nobody has access to without payment so I can make everyone else feel bad and not follow the terms I agreed to!
But really, if a server is genuinely good, people should rise up and support it on their own, if not pay as a whole a small fee to keep it alive and well.
Well, actually it's pretty much better this way. As I said above, if a server is good, the players should be mature, appreciate the content provided for them, and support it as a whole on their own with donations. If not, then at least charge a minor fee for everyone. Also it isn't like you can't host a server on your own, whenever I want to play Minecraft with my friends, one of them just hosts it right on the computer they play the game on, and we all join in and enjoy.
The problem with your idea is that the majority of players aren't mature enough to support the servers they like and who is gonna want to pay up front to join a server. The only servers that will benefit from the upfront charge are the large popular servers that are getting spanked with the new EULA now. They are no doubt paying a small fine or something and this new EULA is a legality that is being done to facilitate them. The large servers will continue under a slight modified internal management of players now and Mojang wins because no upstarts will stand a chance.
- Give donators access to a free build area, that random people would constantly grief if any old player who had just joined could access it.
Partitioning out land or setting up additional worlds in itself should be no problem. Whether in the freebuild area or outside if players have access to all the same blocks, items, mobs etc. then gameplay remains the same. Now if you go and say, block off all the jungle biomes in the world so only donators can access them, then you'd have an issue.
- Give ranks and benefits to players who earn them with good builds.
If ranks and benefits are based on activity in the game, that's fine and always has been. You just can't throw money at the server admins and get VIP status for that alone.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My Spigot/CraftBukkit plugins: TallNether - Generate a 256-block high nether
I love the EULA changes. and honestly it provides a more stable way to make money, but it jsut requires a little more effort to get running. its a tighter system that HELPS with the abuse.
i always hated pay-to-win servers and donation ranks. This forces people to make money in a fair and balanced way. if a few serevrs die because of it, so be it.
So in your infinite wisdom what do you see as the model for making money now?
Yeah over time. but the first few month it will most likely only be the server owner, you want the server owner to handle all greifing done on the server when tnt is allowed??
The best plugin I found for anti-griefing is called "Grief Prevention", all the others can be violated in one or another.
I thought this exactly. It's not right.
From what I can tell from the EULA.
Sounds more like someone got tired of Minecraft and is seeking ways to crash it economically. This will do that.
Curing is the wrong attitude. Instead they need to embrace the community and modify their EULA to match it. Not try to enforce it.
and the other real problem are all the blind people who are thinking this will make minecraft servers even more fun.
No it will not. It will lead to watered down servers with less ram/player lots/ memory/etc.. due to not being able to run off of purchases of packages. Less plugins, only vanilla servers will prosper.
The Bukkit API is by the Bukkit team. Craftbukkit which is used to actually run a server is still vanilla Minecraft, just with the Bukkit code grafted on.
My Spigot/CraftBukkit plugins:
TallNether - Generate a 256-block high nether
FarLandsAgain - Restores the Far Lands
User: *BOOM* You're dead.
Cleverbot: I divide by zero and come back as an angel ninja.
Just don't play on those servers. That's all there is to it.
If Mojang owned the servers in question, and they do not, they'd have a legal claim to what was charged. At most they have a legal claim to a percentage of the monies collected.
I'd love it if people played on my servers, but they don't, cause I don't charge for awesome ingame things, you have access to all of it. Nothing to entice you to rank up. Guess what I use a cheap hosting provider, two of them. One of them is mondo crappy, the other is good but only for bukkit and tekkit. I can't host what I want cause no money comes in, there is no reason for folks to donate. Why would you.
It's like going to McDonald's and they give you a free burger every day and then one day they say, hey you gotta start paying for that. Do you start paying for it? or do you stop going to McDonald's?
Exactly. The Minecraft server hosting market is essentially dead now unless the EULA is updated to accommodate the existing working dynamic.
HAHA Their is no way im going to lisin this or im going to lose alot of money by making every1 pay the same thing
Proud Owner of Dragon Assault! Join us! 192.99.32.133:25612
Which begs the question, if it was so unbearable, why did you keep playing it? After all you found that server online somehow, you could have easily found another one.
I think this is far too broad, because now all creative servers will no longer be able to
- Give donators access to World Edit, because then random trolling non-donators would have to have access to World Edit, and could grief the server by abusing the plugin to crash the server.
- Give donators additional Plotme plots.
- Give donators access to a free build area, that random people would constantly grief if any old player who had just joined could access it.
- Give ranks and benefits to players who earn them with good builds.
These rules will kill creative servers like TCS, Vaduct's server, and WoK.
These creative servers aren't doing anything evil, they can't survive without breaking these rules, because making a creative server pay-to-join would turn away 99.9% of players, and having no incentive to get people to dontate means that theres no way they'll get enough donations to help them run the server.
Over all, I think this is really just a shotgun solution, and I think Mojang should sort these problems out on a case by case basis. Sure, charging 1000$ for a set of super enchanted gear on one server is stupid, but you can't just ban all transactions. I think someone should be allowed to pay 10$ to get access to flashing disco armour or World Edit.
(Yes, I know I'll get flamed ) (No, I don't care)
You sir have hit the nail on the head!
I want to take a minute to restate some things that have been said before but are still being ignored or misunderstood. Please remember that I understand that my posts are just my opinion. IANAL and that I am commenting on how I think things work in the USA. Your local laws my be different or I could simply be wrong.
1. They are NOT making the server license more restrictive. They are actually granting more rights than the current license. From what I have seen, the original/current license forbids all commercial use. That means under the original license you are in violation of your license if you run a server and receive any money from your players. (Sharing the cost of a server is not the same thing.)
2. Running a modded server does not change anything. Even a full reimplementation of the server written from scratch is a derivative work if the programmers had any exposure to the decompiled software owned by Mojang. (Search on "COMPAQ, IBM PC BIOS" for more info.)
3. No one has ever purchased Minecraft server. It has always been downloadable for free under a specific license. As such, none of the consumer protections for purchases come into play. If you want to use Mojang's server software legally you have to agree to their rules. (I bother to say this because of all the ignorant "I bought Minecraft, I will do whatever I want!" posts.)
Here are the reasons I personally would follow their rules.
1. Karma. If I ignore the wishes and rights of the owner of a creative work like Minecraft, why should I expect anyone to respect my wishes and rights for anything I create?
2. Reputation. Why would anyone who enjoys Minecraft associate or do business with someone who does not respect the rights of the creator/owner of Minecraft? Doing so just gives Mojang incentive to release less information to the community and become more hostile to server admins in general.
3. DRM. If too many choose to ignore Mojang's license terms, they may choose to find technical means to enforce them. Do you really want Mojang to start down the DRM path? Here are some of the things I see coming if that happens:
a. Server Login. They could easily recode the server software to not run without logging into a Mojang account. (Yes it could be hacked out, but thanks to code obfuscation, a new hack would have to be created for every release.)
b. Enforced code signatures. To the best of my knowledge, Java supports verifying a signature on classes before allowing them to run. This would make life much harder for anyone how wants to modify the server software. It would also make all current mods unusable.
c. Removal of the Offline option. This would require all of your users to login with their Mojang account giving them a very simple way to force you to follow their terms.
4. Legal trouble. Why would I knowingly put time and energy into running a server if I knew that the way I was running the server might cause Mojang to send my ISP or server host a cease and desist letter that could take me offline for weeks or possibly forever? This may be specific to the US, but Mojang can easily get any server taken offline by sending a single DMCA Takedown letter to the ISP or hosting company.
I don't run a server for anyone but friends, but I still think this is the reality of how things are.
NO, no it isn't. A player on a minecraft server is essentially anonymous unless they gave out too much personal information. Unlike a family member that can report to an 'authority' anything they want for any reason they want without any real consequence.
Even if there was a version of Bukkit that ran without any of Mojang's code OR assets being present on the server it would still be a "derivative work" from a copyright standpoint unless it was written without looking at the decompiled Minecraft code. Since there is no published Minecraft Client API, I am going to assume that Bukkit is a derivative work. As such, it is my understanding that unless the Bukkit team has a separate license with Mojang, everyone running a Bukkit server is required to follow the Minecraft server license.
The problem with your idea is that the majority of players aren't mature enough to support the servers they like and who is gonna want to pay up front to join a server. The only servers that will benefit from the upfront charge are the large popular servers that are getting spanked with the new EULA now. They are no doubt paying a small fine or something and this new EULA is a legality that is being done to facilitate them. The large servers will continue under a slight modified internal management of players now and Mojang wins because no upstarts will stand a chance.
Partitioning out land or setting up additional worlds in itself should be no problem. Whether in the freebuild area or outside if players have access to all the same blocks, items, mobs etc. then gameplay remains the same. Now if you go and say, block off all the jungle biomes in the world so only donators can access them, then you'd have an issue.
If ranks and benefits are based on activity in the game, that's fine and always has been. You just can't throw money at the server admins and get VIP status for that alone.
My Spigot/CraftBukkit plugins:
TallNether - Generate a 256-block high nether
FarLandsAgain - Restores the Far Lands
User: *BOOM* You're dead.
Cleverbot: I divide by zero and come back as an angel ninja.
So in your infinite wisdom what do you see as the model for making money now?
Lol, everyone has free access to TNT on both of my servers.
The best plugin I found for anti-griefing is called "Grief Prevention", all the others can be violated in one or another.
@Bopogamel Can a server admin charge for "login time"? Can I give users x hours a day for free, and charge for more daily access?
Go get a job. McDonalds is hiring.
Ozi