Yup. I can think of so many historical situations that would have come out differently if people had just had the good sense to keep quiet when they were wronged.
I blame curse for encouraging the people on this site to use bogus magic copyrights that are in no way backed by any government.
It still is wrong to be copying someone's work, mechanic to mechanic, feature to feature. What happened respecting one's work?
I am part of the MUGEN community, while by policy everything is open source, no matter what you say, at least it's a rule that you respect one's works by giving due credits.
Yup. I can think of so many historical situations that would have come out differently if people had just had the good sense to keep quiet when they were wronged.
It still is wrong to be copying someone's work, mechanic to mechanic, feature to feature. What happened respecting one's work?
I am part of the MUGEN community, while by policy everything is open source, no matter what you say, at least it's a rule that you respect one's works by giving due credits.
Wow. Something actually got me to create a MCF account after avoiding this ... netherhole for so long. Congrats on that!
BWF is a jerk move. I won't support anyone involved with it. And neither will the mass of people who play this game, if they know the details.
Just include in BWF "Taken without permission from Flowerchild". And see how many DLs you get. Stick with honesty and it will sort itself out lickety split. If you think you have a good case, make it public why don't you? Like FC is doing. The more public the better. See how the community as a whole reacts to it.
I'd rather drink urine than post here, and this subject got me angry enough that I did anyway. Expect more of that from plenty of people.
Would you teach your children to do this? Seriously people.
The way this was done it was entirely meant as a personal attack. And I do not accept that happening in front of me.
As this is the internet, I can't twist anyone's ear and drag them off to the principal's office. But I will call wrong, wrong.
Not nearly as much. But still, since in this community, there is no "your work is open source no matter what" policy here, there's still the rule of respect. It's disrespectful to make a blatant and retarded copy of someone else's work.
Not nearly as much. But still, since in this community, it there is no "your work is open source no matter what" policy here, there's still the rule of respect. It's disrespectful to make a blatant and retarded copy of someone else's work.
Yup. I can think of so many historical situations that would have come out differently if people had just had the good sense to keep quiet when they were wronged.
Please enumerate. You've already compared stealing your mod to rape, you might as well go all the way and invoke Godwin's Law.
This is all personal opinion and personal morals.
Opinions and morals differ from region to region, from religion to religion, from person to person and even change throughout a persons lifespan.
Not everyone shares the same opinions and morals, you shouldn't force your opinions and morals onto someone else, especially over something as banal as mod compatibility.
I interpreted this more as a design issue wherein BTW features objectively conflict with other mods features. This is an objective fact as many of the larger tech mods have overlapping functionality which is easier to implement and requires less planning and forethought.
Now this isn’t an issue if you have an understanding of what sort of experience BTW offers and have rejected that electing to only use particular features of BTW. I don’t think intervening in those cases is productive or the ethically right thing to do.
The problem comes into play when unknowing users want more content and install the larger tech mods and BTW without knowledge that BTW largely becomes obsolete with the inclusion of other mods. If the intent of the mod user is to derive utility out of BTW they are less likely to obtain this because of the additional “big tech” mods that offer the dis-coordination rather than synergy.
Ultimately this is not about morality any more than a the exploration of the timeless moral question of what is better Arma or Serious Sam, Burnout or Gran Turismo. These are different game experiences and the value derived is subjective so no maxim or universal is relevant.
What is objectively fact though is that the BTW mod was not designed to accommodate this extra power. It denies you power and this enhances the gameplay experience and rewards you for achieving things you can do much easier with other big tech mods. By saturating the unknowing player or forcing them to experience target overload when they see MFE, MCE’s, BTE’s, ICBM’s or whatever else they are not going to get the BTW experience as intended without shunning all the other mods in favor of BTW. Will they even know what is a BTW block/ item and what isn’t ?
The fundamental problem is a game like Amnesia vs a game like Doom 3. The design of Amnesia is such that it cripples you relative to most other horror games by limiting your offensive capabilities. Doom 3 has similar atmosphere but you’re carrying around an advance arsenal in your pocket. These two games, which both have horror elements, alter the game play experience and Amnesia would not be the same game it is if outside forces, like studio execs, came in and demanded developers give the protagonist machine guns and explosives. The original intent is destroyed and we get something that is overrepresented in the market.
It is not allowed to evolve on it’s own and demonstrate why it’s better at offering some desired experience than other tech mods or allowed to coexist as a niche. It’s integrated forcibly and its’ features become the junk DNA Redpower or Buildcraft.
In addition the Mattabase’s and Lex Manos’s already have intimate knowledge of what gameplay experience they want. They are in a position to say they want forge mods with BTW but ultimately they are getting a few more ways to do the same thing while the naïve user gets the same thing they do not have the same background to make this informed choice without first actually understanding the process of working through BTW as a standalone game. The gnostic already know what they want but they are getting weaker redundancy and that comes at the experience of a those who will now be less likely to experience BTW as it was intended to be. Since eloram has already implemented similar features of BTW I don’t see how this is a positive outcome for anybody.
Please enumerate. You've already compared stealing your mod to rape, you might as well go all the way and invoke Godwin's Law.
Sure: how about women fighting for the right to vote in a wide variety of democracies world-wide? Perhaps you'd like to argue that they should have just kept quiet?
Perhaps many of you here would even like to argue that they didn't have any kind of case because nothing technically illegal was going on?
Flip open a history book to practically any page and you'll come across some lunatic somewhere that decided enough was enough and to cry out when he had been morally wronged. I just don't understand why such people don't have the good sense to keep quiet, and why they just don't "get" the concept of moral relativism making any statement involving right and wrong entirely irrelevant.
No. That's completely relevant. If someone disagrees with something, then their only recourse is to speak out against it. The women's rights movement is being used as an empirical example to illustrate this point in the face of arguments that FlowerChild should just keep quiet and let things be. Things as they are do not present a desirable situation to FlowerChild, just as not having the right to vote is not a desirable situation for the women being used as an example. If they do not speak up, the chance of things changing is nil. So it is here. If there were no response from FlowerChild, then it would be taken as consent. The only way to even have a chance of having one's wishes respected is to make them known.
Sure: how about women fighting for the right to vote in a wide variety of democracies world-wide? Perhaps you'd like to argue that they should have just kept quiet?
Perhaps many of you here would even like to argue that they didn't have any kind of case because nothing technically illegal was going on?
Comparing this to women's suffrage, really? Really?
I'm not arguing that BWF isn't in the wrong. I'm not arguing that it's okay to copy other people's mods, regardless of legality.
But rather than continue to argue on those grounds, you compare your own plight to those far worse, trivializing people who have suffered victimization greater than you can imagine. It's like claiming your common cold is a tragedy on par with with the spread of Polio. Throwing out strawmen to portray MWF's supporters as rapists or chauvinists does nothing to further your cause and makes you appear more interested in demonizing Forge than protecting your mod.
I want to take your side in this, but frankly, the more you talk, the less I want anything to do with you.
I want to take your side in this, but frankly, the more you talk, the less I want anything to do with you.
Considering you want to take what I am saying, draw absurd connections based on it, and distort it in an attempt to try and invalidate my issue here:
No, you don't want to take my side, but you think it sounds good to say that you do.
I am not comparing my cause here with women fighting for the right to vote. What I am saying is that any argument whose basis lays in "if you are wronged, you should just keep quiet", is inherently wrong, and I provided that as a historical example. Quite simple really, if not view through lenses designed to distort and magnify.
I wish that someone who is tired of waiting for RP2 would start recreating Redpower 2. Wonder how the modding community would respond then.
Too many ppl ignore the incident and only focus on FC. Whether you like FC or not should be besides the point that someone basically is ripping off his ideas in a blatant obvious way. Too many double standards in this community.
Exactly. It's not like someone saying, "Hm. I have some ideas for a medieval mechanical power mod. I'll write it!" No, it's a blatant copy, right down to the form of the name. It screams, "You didn't do what we wanted, BTW, so we're going to MAKE you do it."
I wish that someone who is tired of waiting for RP2 would start recreating Redpower 2. Wonder how the modding community would respond then.
Too many ppl ignore the incident and only focus on FC. Whether you like FC or not should be besides the point that someone basically is ripping off his ideas in a blatant obvious way. Too many double standards in this community.
People are already doing it little-by-little. Like the crafting bench, it was recreated in another mod.
RP2 fanbase is OK with this. And Eloraam too, since she has a mature concept of "intelectual property". It's worth reading, but her site is down, sadly.
Comparing this to women's suffrage, really? Really?
-snip-
I want to take your side in this, but frankly, the more you talk, the less I want anything to do with you.
Yes, really. And it was logically appropriate. That's what comparison is used for. You never compare something with itself as that is entirely useless. It's inherint to the very concept of comparison.
And you just admit here that you will toss aside what you think is right because someone annoys you.
Considering you want to take what I am saying, draw absurd connections based on it, and distort it in an attempt to try and invalidate my issue here:
No, you don't want to take my side, but you think it sounds good to say that you do.
I am not comparing my cause here with women fighting for the right to vote. What I am saying is that any argument whose basis lays in "if you are wronged, you should just keep quiet", is inherently wrong, and I provided that as a historical example. Quite simple really, if not view through lenses designed to distort and magnify.
You encorage your supporters to throw around banners using a well-known anti-rape slogan. You compare your conflict with BWF to the struggle of women to vote. Even if you don't outright claim them to be equal, you're sure as hell implying it, and it reveals a critical lack of perspective on your part.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't object to BWF, or that BWF isn't a jerk move. I'm just trying to get through to you the fact that the way you're going about makes you look unhinged and the people behind BWF that much better.
Yes, really. And it was logically appropriate. That's what comparison is used for. You never compare something with itself as that is entirely useless. It's inherint to the very concept of comparison.
And you just admit here that you will toss aside what you think is right because someone annoys you.
I think that proves the value of your opinion.
Actually, FC's argument was doubly falacious - a feat, ad hitlerem combed with strawman. Not only evoking talk about Nazis when it's not needed but misinterpreting the other's argument on purpose.
And yours, for that "value of your opinion" would fit nicely into a "ad autoritatem".
Both sides should use rationality, something this thread is lacking. A lot.
Yup. I can think of so many historical situations that would have come out differently if people had just had the good sense to keep quiet when they were wronged.
It still is wrong to be copying someone's work, mechanic to mechanic, feature to feature. What happened respecting one's work?
I am part of the MUGEN community, while by policy everything is open source, no matter what you say, at least it's a rule that you respect one's works by giving due credits.
BWF is a jerk move. I won't support anyone involved with it. And neither will the mass of people who play this game, if they know the details.
Just include in BWF "Taken without permission from Flowerchild". And see how many DLs you get. Stick with honesty and it will sort itself out lickety split. If you think you have a good case, make it public why don't you? Like FC is doing. The more public the better. See how the community as a whole reacts to it.
I'd rather drink urine than post here, and this subject got me angry enough that I did anyway. Expect more of that from plenty of people.
Would you teach your children to do this? Seriously people.
The way this was done it was entirely meant as a personal attack. And I do not accept that happening in front of me.
As this is the internet, I can't twist anyone's ear and drag them off to the principal's office. But I will call wrong, wrong.
-out-
Not nearly as much. But still, since in this community, there is no "your work is open source no matter what" policy here, there's still the rule of respect. It's disrespectful to make a blatant and retarded copy of someone else's work.
Please enumerate. You've already compared stealing your mod to rape, you might as well go all the way and invoke Godwin's Law.
I interpreted this more as a design issue wherein BTW features objectively conflict with other mods features. This is an objective fact as many of the larger tech mods have overlapping functionality which is easier to implement and requires less planning and forethought.
Now this isn’t an issue if you have an understanding of what sort of experience BTW offers and have rejected that electing to only use particular features of BTW. I don’t think intervening in those cases is productive or the ethically right thing to do.
The problem comes into play when unknowing users want more content and install the larger tech mods and BTW without knowledge that BTW largely becomes obsolete with the inclusion of other mods. If the intent of the mod user is to derive utility out of BTW they are less likely to obtain this because of the additional “big tech” mods that offer the dis-coordination rather than synergy.
Ultimately this is not about morality any more than a the exploration of the timeless moral question of what is better Arma or Serious Sam, Burnout or Gran Turismo. These are different game experiences and the value derived is subjective so no maxim or universal is relevant.
What is objectively fact though is that the BTW mod was not designed to accommodate this extra power. It denies you power and this enhances the gameplay experience and rewards you for achieving things you can do much easier with other big tech mods. By saturating the unknowing player or forcing them to experience target overload when they see MFE, MCE’s, BTE’s, ICBM’s or whatever else they are not going to get the BTW experience as intended without shunning all the other mods in favor of BTW. Will they even know what is a BTW block/ item and what isn’t ?
The fundamental problem is a game like Amnesia vs a game like Doom 3. The design of Amnesia is such that it cripples you relative to most other horror games by limiting your offensive capabilities. Doom 3 has similar atmosphere but you’re carrying around an advance arsenal in your pocket. These two games, which both have horror elements, alter the game play experience and Amnesia would not be the same game it is if outside forces, like studio execs, came in and demanded developers give the protagonist machine guns and explosives. The original intent is destroyed and we get something that is overrepresented in the market.
It is not allowed to evolve on it’s own and demonstrate why it’s better at offering some desired experience than other tech mods or allowed to coexist as a niche. It’s integrated forcibly and its’ features become the junk DNA Redpower or Buildcraft.
In addition the Mattabase’s and Lex Manos’s already have intimate knowledge of what gameplay experience they want. They are in a position to say they want forge mods with BTW but ultimately they are getting a few more ways to do the same thing while the naïve user gets the same thing they do not have the same background to make this informed choice without first actually understanding the process of working through BTW as a standalone game. The gnostic already know what they want but they are getting weaker redundancy and that comes at the experience of a those who will now be less likely to experience BTW as it was intended to be. Since eloram has already implemented similar features of BTW I don’t see how this is a positive outcome for anybody.
Sure: how about women fighting for the right to vote in a wide variety of democracies world-wide? Perhaps you'd like to argue that they should have just kept quiet?
Perhaps many of you here would even like to argue that they didn't have any kind of case because nothing technically illegal was going on?
Flip open a history book to practically any page and you'll come across some lunatic somewhere that decided enough was enough and to cry out when he had been morally wronged. I just don't understand why such people don't have the good sense to keep quiet, and why they just don't "get" the concept of moral relativism making any statement involving right and wrong entirely irrelevant.
So goes FC's reputation. Something happens. FC responds. FC gets bad rap. Everyone ignores the initial incident.
EDIT: I realized I should clarify. FC was asked a question, and he answered it. Then, he's told he is 'off topic'.
No. That's completely relevant. If someone disagrees with something, then their only recourse is to speak out against it. The women's rights movement is being used as an empirical example to illustrate this point in the face of arguments that FlowerChild should just keep quiet and let things be. Things as they are do not present a desirable situation to FlowerChild, just as not having the right to vote is not a desirable situation for the women being used as an example. If they do not speak up, the chance of things changing is nil. So it is here. If there were no response from FlowerChild, then it would be taken as consent. The only way to even have a chance of having one's wishes respected is to make them known.
Comparing this to women's suffrage, really? Really?
I'm not arguing that BWF isn't in the wrong. I'm not arguing that it's okay to copy other people's mods, regardless of legality.
But rather than continue to argue on those grounds, you compare your own plight to those far worse, trivializing people who have suffered victimization greater than you can imagine. It's like claiming your common cold is a tragedy on par with with the spread of Polio. Throwing out strawmen to portray MWF's supporters as rapists or chauvinists does nothing to further your cause and makes you appear more interested in demonizing Forge than protecting your mod.
I want to take your side in this, but frankly, the more you talk, the less I want anything to do with you.
Considering you want to take what I am saying, draw absurd connections based on it, and distort it in an attempt to try and invalidate my issue here:
No, you don't want to take my side, but you think it sounds good to say that you do.
I am not comparing my cause here with women fighting for the right to vote. What I am saying is that any argument whose basis lays in "if you are wronged, you should just keep quiet", is inherently wrong, and I provided that as a historical example. Quite simple really, if not view through lenses designed to distort and magnify.
Exactly. It's not like someone saying, "Hm. I have some ideas for a medieval mechanical power mod. I'll write it!" No, it's a blatant copy, right down to the form of the name. It screams, "You didn't do what we wanted, BTW, so we're going to MAKE you do it."
RP2 fanbase is OK with this. And Eloraam too, since she has a mature concept of "intelectual property". It's worth reading, but her site is down, sadly.
Yes, really. And it was logically appropriate. That's what comparison is used for. You never compare something with itself as that is entirely useless. It's inherint to the very concept of comparison.
And you just admit here that you will toss aside what you think is right because someone annoys you.
I think that proves the value of your opinion.
You encorage your supporters to throw around banners using a well-known anti-rape slogan. You compare your conflict with BWF to the struggle of women to vote. Even if you don't outright claim them to be equal, you're sure as hell implying it, and it reveals a critical lack of perspective on your part.
Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't object to BWF, or that BWF isn't a jerk move. I'm just trying to get through to you the fact that the way you're going about makes you look unhinged and the people behind BWF that much better.
And yours, for that "value of your opinion" would fit nicely into a "ad autoritatem".
Both sides should use rationality, something this thread is lacking. A lot.