Having a conflict with Tinker and Twilight Forest. I am in the process of building a mod pack, and when I added tinkers it wipes out 80% of the items in NEI when you open the inventory. If I remove either mod (tinkers or Twilight) this issue goes away. I have checked for conflicting ID's and not found any. Can someone please explain why this happens and how to fix it if you can.
Perhaps the repair cost was a bit too much... I've turned that off for now. Violating the principles of my mod are never a good thing. There will be some kind of increased cost for repairing tools in the future, but it won't be limited.
I'm looking at a couple of other bugs right now. The Smeltery doesn't seem to be re-validating itself when the amount of layers change, and right-click to place blocks with tools is a bit funky.
Alfalis: You know, the tools don't do anything special over vanilla except that they stay around. If you're keeping tools due to overpoweredness, you should look at removing enchantments too.
Taigore: Modifiers aren't exactly cheap...
Kaosian: Bibliocraft has a config that you can add the books to.
JantoZ: Blue slimes do not spawn anywhere other than vanilla biomes. It's something I've been looking into recently.
Perhaps the repair cost was a bit too much... I've turned that off for now. Violating the principles of my mod are never a good thing. There will be some kind of increased cost for repairing tools in the future, but it won't be limited.
You sir are amazing! I have found another bug too, placing a blank wood pattern into the stencil table and going onto any stencil then switching out the blank wood stencil for a blank brass stencil will not change it, and you can make wooden stencils using brass plates, and vice versa.
Er... Small question, that I'm sure has already been answered somewhere or another. But I seem to be unable to find any previous versions of the mod. I need a 1.4.7 version, not a 1.5.2 version.
Er... Small question, that I'm sure has already been answered somewhere or another. But I seem to be unable to find any previous versions of the mod. I need a 1.4.7 version, not a 1.5.2 version.
The download was removed due to people asking for buxfixes and additions to it.
Only reason to use 1.4.7 is redpower, and Eloraam said it might come out in a little while. Which probably means 1-2 months.
You'll just have to settle with not using tconstruct on 1.4.7.
Disclaimer: this is a design breakdown of the vanilla vs TConstruct situation. I tried doing that since I remember you (mDiyo) got into game design a long while ago, so you may actually understand and care about this. I don't expect you to agree in any way, but that's how I see the difference between your mod and vanilla, maybe it will help you (and your reply will help me, since I'm interested in game design too) to design better games/gameplay, maybe not. And now, brace yourself, incomingbattleship of text!
Yes, I know, in fact the decision of hard-capping the amount of repairs was bad, I'm glad you rolled it back. Losing a tool that costs a nether star, two diamonds, a block of gold, rare nether ores, the building of a smeltery, a bunch of redstone/quartz and a truck of lapis is definitely not a good thing to have, unless one dies and loses it because that's the game. Otherwise it just limits the amount you may wish to spend on a tool, limiting also the uniqueness of such tools.
However, compare it with vanilla, and you'll see why TConstruct tools are perceived as "easy" to get:
First, you have to get the diamond, one to three quite rare pieces of ore, that may take from no time to forever, since it's random.
Then, you have to make (easy) and enchant (hard) the tool how you want it. If you want to go TConstruct level of power, you have to spend 30 XP levels per try. This may, again, take from no time to forever, depending on how lucky you are with enchants. Also, each try takes a fresh tool, since I don't remember a way of disenchanting a tool other than craft-repair it, which costs another tool of the same type. Go back to step one if you fail the enchanting process.
After that, congratulations! You've got a durable tool (not that much more durable than a well done TConstruct tool though, for many times the cost) with (hopefully) all the enchants you wanted. Now, to repair it you need a comparable amount of materials (one to three) to those used in the initial crafting, and around the same amount of experience you spent on the enchanting process. You will lose it anyway sooner or later, since it will cost too much for the anvil to repair it.
A little recap of what has been spent for this:
One to INSANE amount of diamonds, depending on luck with enchants
30 to INSANE amount of XP levels, depending on luck with enchants OR
120+ XP levels to get the right enchant books and an extra to place them on the tool
And this is just to get the tool, the repairs will cost a good portion of that and are limited.
I don't think at all this is a better system, but you have to compare to that since you are leaving vanilla tools in place. There are two main differences between your system and vanilla: Randomness: in the grim cubeness of vanilla there is only randomness. Which is bad but easy. In TConstruct all is set, so you are sure of what you get. Which is good, but requires a lot of effort on your part. This obviously makes TConstruct tools cheaper, even counting in the amount of stuff you have to use on them. Unless you reality bending luck. (I have it, btw) What you spend: in TConstruct you spend materials to improve tools, and spend materials to repair them. In vanilla you spend materials to make the tools, XP to improve them and materials plus XP to repair them. Unless something catastrophic happens, materials will be always safe once you get back to your base. However, excluding any XP bank mod, you will always have your levels with you, and will always risk losing them. Each death resets you to level 6 if you were higher, and also drops those levels on the ground, from where they can disappear. In addition, collecting XP is different from collecting materials, since each level requires a bit more than the last.
And last, a little comparison with two other mods, EE2 and IC2.
Both have tools and armor that, once you pay for them, are yours forever. EE tools require no maintenance at all, while IC2 requires a good infrastructure (which is the core of the mod) to keep them powered between each mining run, or round of combat, build, exploration or whatever. Well, no matter how much those tools/armor cost (particularly with EE2) I will gladly pay for them. And that's because they are forever. Once I spend the three diamonds to get the diamond drill, I know that I won't need no new diamond drill, unless I lose it due to death. Once I get a dark matter sword, I know I won't need a new one (come on, nothing can kill someone with a dark matter sword, unless he runs straight in a lava lake.)
The same applies to TConstruct though: unless I die, I know that the diamond/emerald/silk jewel/redstone/quartz/whatever I spent on that tool will be spent for a permanent improvement, the only holding back may be "but it's the only diamond I have, I may need it to craft X from mod Y."
And now let's end this!
The four main point of clash with vanilla or "The fulcrum of cheapness" are:
-TConstruct tools and enchants last forever, cutting the real weight of each cost
-TConstruct tools cost materials (that you can store), while vanilla tools cost XP (that you can't store, nor protect). Guess why there are so many XP bank mods?
-TConstruct tools will be how you want them, vanilla tools are a gamble. And gambling costs.
-Base TConstruct tools are better than base vanilla tools, and fully improved TConstruct tools are better than fully enchanted vanilla tools, even with books. And they can be specialized easily for a certain task.
P.S. This may or may not make sense. Well, at least while I was writing, it did for me.
If you're looking for a mod that makes things like vanilla.... why not just play vanilla?
FSMAcolyte: I've tried fixing that three times. I'm just going to make it completely stop trying to repair while mining and call it good.
Superstoffolous: There's no easy answer to melting down tools from vanilla, other mods, or even my own. I'm still deciding what to do.
Taigore: Don't worry about random people saying bad things; random people aren't any good at game design. It's nice to see things from a different perspective and I agree with you on everything.
There is a critical point you missed: progression. Vanilla has an all-or-nothing system of progression, spending everything on your tool and praying to the RNG gods it works. With TConstruct you can add a little to the tool to make it a little bit better, eventually reaching a point of usefulness that matches a good level 30 vanilla enchant.
The flow from beginning to end is better. That flow is where the "easy mode" lies.
Taigore, thank you for the comparison of vanilla mechanics versus TConstruct. That rather pointedly illustrates why I don't like the vanilla enchanting system. The RNG gods hate me.
While in a sense TConstruct's mechanics are somewhat cheaper, to me they are also more logical, and being able to progressively add enhancements to a tool or weapon makes them far more desirable to me.
I don't like the idea that I'll reach a point where I can no longer repair my superdooper manyallyn pick of awesomeness. However, I'm sure mDiyo thought that through carefully, and I'll live. Overall, TConstruct has moved into my core mods category.
(PS, yes I know I didn't spell that metal right. My memory sucks. Sue me.)
You know... After seeing the reason why the mod developer had taken down the 1.4.7 download link, I was going to just accept it and go back to my game. But then I saw the "Updated" Page to links to the "Download" This is immature, and unnecessary. As a mod developer, you are going to have to accept the fact that there will be people who jump the shark, and not look at the version. However, there are even more people who find previous versions of the mod VERY useful, such as people who use FTB, that is still in 1.4.7. Moving onto the little stunt, putting up fake download links with the intention to troll people is beyond immature. You have just stooped to the level of the people screaming at you for the wrong version. You are meant to be the mature one, not the other way around.
MDiyo was probably fed up to the back teeth about getting comments like, "Where are the books?" and, "Why can't I build a smeltery?" and, "My diamond pickaxe won't mine cobalt. What will?"
Granted, the fake download link was unnecessary. But even so, wouldn't you feel irritated if loads of people asked you questions about a depreciated version that you no longer support? Questions that have been answered at least twice, nonetheless.
To wrap it up...yes, the fake dl wasn't necessary. Maybe a great, big, blatantly obvious "depreciated" sign in bold, italicized, underlined, CAPITAL letters will do.
Yes, I understand WHY he took the previous versions down. But at a modder, you'll just have to learn to accept that. There are a lot of people on the Internet who aren't bright. You just need to sift through the idiots and find the people with actual questions.
All Tinker's Construct is doing is bringing middle game enchantments to earlier game. Middle game, resources are in abundance and XP is easy. Even if TC is the only mod you have installed, vanilla XP is a simple process of mostly being afk. Other mods can of course trivialize it even more.
In fact, early game, barring some other mod (Xeno's Reliquary, Ars Magica) giving easy access to lapis, it's far easier to get a Fortune III pickaxe through vanilla than it is through Tinkers. 450 lapis is really quite a lot until you've been in the world for awhile.
I think the heavy material costs in exchange for the time, luck, and exp investment does a fine job of being an alternative to vanilla enchanting. The only balance problems I see are the Rapier, maybe the Dagger, and overabundance of materials due external influences. Quarries and Frame Bores can make ANYTHING feel cheap... except for enchanting since automation usually robs the player of sources of exp. For anyone using these (Feed the Beast IS really popular right now), of course the Tinkers' tools are going to feel dirt cheap compared to enchanting, and pre-established worlds are going to make them feel dirt cheap as well. That's improper use of the mod, the fault of the player, not some inherent flaw in the mod.
To clarify my two other points though... I really can't think of a situation in which the Dagger would be useful. Someone explain to me what I'm missing here, perhaps? As for the Rapier, it's the combination of armor piercing and the complete lack of a hit cooldown.
It's a pretty safe assumption that players will at least be wearing Iron Armor, though in any modded game, Diamond is probably the better assumption. Even more so considering Manyullyn armor is a strong likelihood. Ignoring enchantments, Iron reduces incoming damage by 62.5%, and the full bar from Diamond reduces incoming damage by 83.3%. (At least according to the wiki.) With the assumption of Diamond Armor, other weapons would have to do 5 times the base damage of the Rapier to come close to evening out. Yeah... under no circumstances does that come about (the Iron assumption isn't much better), nor would that be a scale that would be very feasible to pull off in a rebalance. Armor ignoring is an issue at its core. Now, one might argue that these weapons are not designed for PvP and thus should not be coming up against such high armor values, but why cut out such a chunk of the potential demographic of the mod? And what about mods that add creatures with higher armor, such as bosses? The point of this mod is variety, is it not? So no one weapon should be ideal, else it hurts that variety.
The lack of a hit cooldown is far less of a problem where any PvP is concerned as other sword users will be capitalizing on knockback and thus help neutralize this advantage. This one is more of a "PvE" or general gameplay concern, and it's a glaringly obvious one to boot. Consider for a second that one can easily attack a mob three times in the time they would normally be invincible from the previous attack. Consider further that even five attacks in that time is feasible. Rapiers when spam attacked can thus deal 3, 4, even 6 times the damage. Are Rapiers 3 times less powerful than the Broadsword? ...nope. This design scales damage to an out of game factor in how fast a player can spam the mouse button, rather than cutting the period of invincibility down to a particular fraction and balancing accordingly, and even if the faster players are ignored, the number of attacks are enough that other weapons just cannot keep up. Again, one could argue that the damage boost from sprinting with the Longsword is a rather tempting option since it is more defensive as well (unless your target happens to be a Skeleton, Witch, Wither, or any other ranged or immune to knockback enemy...), however the Rapier happens to have that very same bonus and of course can squeeze in multiple hits in the moment before the mob flies back. (I do this even with normal Broadswords; it is a simple thing to do.)
But what about the defensive option of the Broadsword? Surely one would still want to use that. You'd think that, but no. In PvP, the enemy's Rapier doesn't care about your attempts to block, and in most melee scenarios, hopping back and just not getting hit is preferable to attempting to halve the damage you're guaranteeing you will take. If there's something hazardous behind you or if you can't time it with a Skeleton's shot, sure, you could get use out of a Broadsword by... using it solely as a shield rather than a weapon, but the Rapier has by far the most powerful defensive ability of all. No, I'm not referring to the hop back this time. I'm referring to the lack of an attack cooldown. In combination with Necrotic Bones, specifically. Unless you're entering a place where there will be predictable volleys of ranged attacks that you won't be able to avoid, you are far better off using a Paper Rapier with 1 Diamond and a bunch of Necrotic Bones as your "defensive weapon" than a Broadsword, because you will be landing hits as fast as you can click, and you will be healing 5 "hearts" with every one of those attacks until the enemy keels over. 6 with a Diamond and Gold Block thrown on, 7 with a Nether Star added as well. Who needs blocking when you get the equivalent of a healing potion with every click of the mouse?
I love this mod, I'm excited at its growth, and I can't wait to see how its features evolve... but something aught to be done differently about the Rapiers. No other choice compares to a Manyullyn Rapier and Paper Rapier on your hotbar, and that's not speaking from preference. mDiyo, in your excitement to give them unique mechanics, you went overboard, plain and simple. Can you perhaps rein them in a bit, please? Give it a far smaller percentile boost in both effects, perhaps? Maybe put a cooldown on how frequently Necrotic Bones can trigger?
And if anyone wants to pipe in that it's about fun and not mathematics, and that "balance" is a fictional construct, and people shouldn't dictate how others play the game: let's try something, hrm? Go watch Direwolf20's and SOTMead's videos on Forgecraft 2 and tell me what weapons you see the various testers and the like use.
Then explain to me how absolute supremacy and nigh universal preference is a good thing for a mod that otherwise tries so hard at providing variety, options, and customization.
I'm sick and tired of such literally thoughtless arguments whenever/wherever someone brings up a balance concern. (This segment is obviously not directed at anyone who doesn't present such a viewpoint, of course.)
I apologize for the extreme wordiness of my post, but I did not want to make a balance "complaint" without making sure to thoroughly back it up. No one wants a crash report without the log; why should I bring forth a complaint without all the relevant details. ...right?
Oh, and you seem to have made grass spread under relatively shallow water with your "clear water" change, even with making it client only. That's definitely effecting how light behaves with water mechanically, rather than just a visual tweak. Unless this is intentional, you've got a bit of a bug there. Personal preference to me, though, would just be to get the visibility bonus from a helmet modifier equivalent to the Respiration Enchantment and have it serve as a proper parallel, as the weapon and tool modifiers tend to be.
Rapiers have been on my radar for awhile now. I haven't seen any harder mobs to test them properly on; if anyone could point me at such a mod, I'd be grateful. If not, well... let's say mobs with 100 health in the nether won't be unheard of.
What I'd like to do with the rapiers is to cap the amount of armor they can pierce. The sprint-boost mechanic is going to disappear, and the cooldown time between attacks needs adjusted as well. Necrotic bones have been on my radar too. I still consider the mod in early development; anything and everything could change.
The water opacity change growing grass was definitely not intentional. I'm just going to remove that.
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Curse PremiumI'm looking at a couple of other bugs right now. The Smeltery doesn't seem to be re-validating itself when the amount of layers change, and right-click to place blocks with tools is a bit funky.
Alfalis: You know, the tools don't do anything special over vanilla except that they stay around. If you're keeping tools due to overpoweredness, you should look at removing enchantments too.
Taigore: Modifiers aren't exactly cheap...
Kaosian: Bibliocraft has a config that you can add the books to.
JantoZ: Blue slimes do not spawn anywhere other than vanilla biomes. It's something I've been looking into recently.
You sir are amazing! I have found another bug too, placing a blank wood pattern into the stencil table and going onto any stencil then switching out the blank wood stencil for a blank brass stencil will not change it, and you can make wooden stencils using brass plates, and vice versa.
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Curse PremiumAlfalis: The modifiers are balanced based on the amount of time and resources the player has from starting a new world.
Lord_vastrix: Yep, got it.
like tendrils that shoot spines at you
great for making new modifiers for armor (like splinters which is kinda like the vannila thorns enchantment)
The download was removed due to people asking for buxfixes and additions to it.
Only reason to use 1.4.7 is redpower, and Eloraam said it might come out in a little while. Which probably means 1-2 months.
You'll just have to settle with not using tconstruct on 1.4.7.
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Curse PremiumIf you're looking for a mod that makes things like vanilla.... why not just play vanilla?
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Curse PremiumSuperstoffolous: There's no easy answer to melting down tools from vanilla, other mods, or even my own. I'm still deciding what to do.
Taigore: Don't worry about random people saying bad things; random people aren't any good at game design. It's nice to see things from a different perspective and I agree with you on everything.
There is a critical point you missed: progression. Vanilla has an all-or-nothing system of progression, spending everything on your tool and praying to the RNG gods it works. With TConstruct you can add a little to the tool to make it a little bit better, eventually reaching a point of usefulness that matches a good level 30 vanilla enchant.
The flow from beginning to end is better. That flow is where the "easy mode" lies.
While in a sense TConstruct's mechanics are somewhat cheaper, to me they are also more logical, and being able to progressively add enhancements to a tool or weapon makes them far more desirable to me.
I don't like the idea that I'll reach a point where I can no longer repair my superdooper manyallyn pick of awesomeness. However, I'm sure mDiyo thought that through carefully, and I'll live. Overall, TConstruct has moved into my core mods category.
(PS, yes I know I didn't spell that metal right. My memory sucks. Sue me.)
Yes, I understand WHY he took the previous versions down. But at a modder, you'll just have to learn to accept that. There are a lot of people on the Internet who aren't bright. You just need to sift through the idiots and find the people with actual questions.
All Tinker's Construct is doing is bringing middle game enchantments to earlier game. Middle game, resources are in abundance and XP is easy. Even if TC is the only mod you have installed, vanilla XP is a simple process of mostly being afk. Other mods can of course trivialize it even more.
In fact, early game, barring some other mod (Xeno's Reliquary, Ars Magica) giving easy access to lapis, it's far easier to get a Fortune III pickaxe through vanilla than it is through Tinkers. 450 lapis is really quite a lot until you've been in the world for awhile.
To clarify my two other points though... I really can't think of a situation in which the Dagger would be useful. Someone explain to me what I'm missing here, perhaps? As for the Rapier, it's the combination of armor piercing and the complete lack of a hit cooldown.
It's a pretty safe assumption that players will at least be wearing Iron Armor, though in any modded game, Diamond is probably the better assumption. Even more so considering Manyullyn armor is a strong likelihood. Ignoring enchantments, Iron reduces incoming damage by 62.5%, and the full bar from Diamond reduces incoming damage by 83.3%. (At least according to the wiki.) With the assumption of Diamond Armor, other weapons would have to do 5 times the base damage of the Rapier to come close to evening out. Yeah... under no circumstances does that come about (the Iron assumption isn't much better), nor would that be a scale that would be very feasible to pull off in a rebalance. Armor ignoring is an issue at its core. Now, one might argue that these weapons are not designed for PvP and thus should not be coming up against such high armor values, but why cut out such a chunk of the potential demographic of the mod? And what about mods that add creatures with higher armor, such as bosses? The point of this mod is variety, is it not? So no one weapon should be ideal, else it hurts that variety.
The lack of a hit cooldown is far less of a problem where any PvP is concerned as other sword users will be capitalizing on knockback and thus help neutralize this advantage. This one is more of a "PvE" or general gameplay concern, and it's a glaringly obvious one to boot. Consider for a second that one can easily attack a mob three times in the time they would normally be invincible from the previous attack. Consider further that even five attacks in that time is feasible. Rapiers when spam attacked can thus deal 3, 4, even 6 times the damage. Are Rapiers 3 times less powerful than the Broadsword? ...nope. This design scales damage to an out of game factor in how fast a player can spam the mouse button, rather than cutting the period of invincibility down to a particular fraction and balancing accordingly, and even if the faster players are ignored, the number of attacks are enough that other weapons just cannot keep up. Again, one could argue that the damage boost from sprinting with the Longsword is a rather tempting option since it is more defensive as well (unless your target happens to be a Skeleton, Witch, Wither, or any other ranged or immune to knockback enemy...), however the Rapier happens to have that very same bonus and of course can squeeze in multiple hits in the moment before the mob flies back. (I do this even with normal Broadswords; it is a simple thing to do.)
But what about the defensive option of the Broadsword? Surely one would still want to use that. You'd think that, but no. In PvP, the enemy's Rapier doesn't care about your attempts to block, and in most melee scenarios, hopping back and just not getting hit is preferable to attempting to halve the damage you're guaranteeing you will take. If there's something hazardous behind you or if you can't time it with a Skeleton's shot, sure, you could get use out of a Broadsword by... using it solely as a shield rather than a weapon, but the Rapier has by far the most powerful defensive ability of all. No, I'm not referring to the hop back this time. I'm referring to the lack of an attack cooldown. In combination with Necrotic Bones, specifically. Unless you're entering a place where there will be predictable volleys of ranged attacks that you won't be able to avoid, you are far better off using a Paper Rapier with 1 Diamond and a bunch of Necrotic Bones as your "defensive weapon" than a Broadsword, because you will be landing hits as fast as you can click, and you will be healing 5 "hearts" with every one of those attacks until the enemy keels over. 6 with a Diamond and Gold Block thrown on, 7 with a Nether Star added as well. Who needs blocking when you get the equivalent of a healing potion with every click of the mouse?
I love this mod, I'm excited at its growth, and I can't wait to see how its features evolve... but something aught to be done differently about the Rapiers. No other choice compares to a Manyullyn Rapier and Paper Rapier on your hotbar, and that's not speaking from preference. mDiyo, in your excitement to give them unique mechanics, you went overboard, plain and simple. Can you perhaps rein them in a bit, please? Give it a far smaller percentile boost in both effects, perhaps? Maybe put a cooldown on how frequently Necrotic Bones can trigger?
And if anyone wants to pipe in that it's about fun and not mathematics, and that "balance" is a fictional construct, and people shouldn't dictate how others play the game: let's try something, hrm? Go watch Direwolf20's and SOTMead's videos on Forgecraft 2 and tell me what weapons you see the various testers and the like use.
Then explain to me how absolute supremacy and nigh universal preference is a good thing for a mod that otherwise tries so hard at providing variety, options, and customization.
I'm sick and tired of such literally thoughtless arguments whenever/wherever someone brings up a balance concern. (This segment is obviously not directed at anyone who doesn't present such a viewpoint, of course.)
I apologize for the extreme wordiness of my post, but I did not want to make a balance "complaint" without making sure to thoroughly back it up. No one wants a crash report without the log; why should I bring forth a complaint without all the relevant details. ...right?
Oh, and you seem to have made grass spread under relatively shallow water with your "clear water" change, even with making it client only. That's definitely effecting how light behaves with water mechanically, rather than just a visual tweak. Unless this is intentional, you've got a bit of a bug there. Personal preference to me, though, would just be to get the visibility bonus from a helmet modifier equivalent to the Respiration Enchantment and have it serve as a proper parallel, as the weapon and tool modifiers tend to be.
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Curse PremiumWhat I'd like to do with the rapiers is to cap the amount of armor they can pierce. The sprint-boost mechanic is going to disappear, and the cooldown time between attacks needs adjusted as well. Necrotic bones have been on my radar too. I still consider the mod in early development; anything and everything could change.
The water opacity change growing grass was definitely not intentional. I'm just going to remove that.
Edit: Nevermind. That mods not updated.