The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
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1/5/2013
Posts:
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MaxSterling
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Since this forum is using IP Board, I checked their page to read up on what moderation functions the software has. One of which is the ability to merge topics. I personally feel it's pretty lazy to just close and lock threads, especially if there's an actual discussion going on in the thread. Instead of locking threads, why not just move it to the correct forum and merge it with the pre-existing topic?
I know that each section has different moderators. Just move the thread to the correct forum and leave it in the moderation queue with a note to merge it with whatever topic it belongs with.
Merging is not effective at all, and makes more of a mess than it solves.
It does not properly handle links and it would break them from the merged topic, so instead of still seeing your topic, you get an error.
From what I have seen, there is rarely a time where it is worth it to actually merge them. In almost every case locking is the more acceptable and best approach.
Locking also lets us leave messages saying something exists.
The Meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Join Date:
1/5/2013
Posts:
455
Xbox:
MaxSterling
Member Details
Broken links leading to the original thread is expected, especially since thread titles are part of the URL. That shouldn't be a concern of yours and should only be the concern of the person linking to the threads.
While I agree that in most cases, a single post or two could be locked without any harm. Discussions like this : http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1966641-villagers-over-spawning-after-tu12/ , should have been moved and merged. There was an active discussion going on and the response needed to be PM'd to me... but the response could have also helped numerous others better understand the issues... in both this thread as well as the original thread.
So it would be better to just silently break an entire topic and get PMs wondering why it was broken than it would be to lock it, which keeps the topic and discussion intact but tells users where it should actually be?
Broken links leading to the original thread is expected, especially since thread titles are part of the URL. That shouldn't be a concern of yours and should only be the concern of the person linking to the threads.
While I agree that in most cases, a single post or two could be locked without any harm. Discussions like this : http://www.minecraft...ing-after-tu12/ , should have been moved and merged. There was an active discussion going on and the response needed to be PM'd to me... but the response could have also helped numerous others better understand the issues... in both this thread as well as the original thread.
Such cases are so rare that they often aren't noticed. If the topic was really interesting you can always contact the forum administartion [Here]
Notice the topic title does not affect them. Because the link uses the ID. Merging breaks that ID for the topic, resulting in a "no topic", which is worse for users.
Discussions are independent things, you cannot just merge 2 discussions together and hope that they work.
For example, imagine the following scenario:
Topic #123 posted at 00:00
Person replies at 00:10
Person replies at 00:20
Person replies at 00:30
Person replies at 00:40
Person replies at 00:50
Person replies at 01:00
Topic #124 posted at 00:30
Person replies at 00:35
Person replies at 00:38
Person replies at 00:41
Person replies at 01:20
A moderator decides these topics are about the same subject and should be merged.
We now have 1 topic containing the posts from both #123 and #124. This topic looks like follows (bold posts are from topic #124, normal posts are from topic #123)
Topic #123 posted at 00:00
Person replies at 00:10
Person replies at 00:20
Person replies at 00:30 Topic #124 posted at 00:30 Person replies at 00:35 Person replies at 00:38
Person replies at 00:40 Person replies at 00:41
Person replies at 00:50
Person replies at 01:00 Person replies at 01:20
it would be a mess! The posts would be in a confusing order and depending on the topic could make absolutely no sense. What if the same person has posted in both topics and someone addresses them by name (without quoting) about one post, but it reads as if they're replying to the other post?
Merging is not a good solution for 99% of situations and is fraught with flaws.
So it would be better to just silently break an entire topic and get PMs wondering why it was broken than it would be to lock it, which keeps the topic and discussion intact but tells users where it should actually be?
Anyone with half a brain cell could just look over their previous posts to find out where their posts have been moved to. People will eventually learn the system. You keep treating people like idiots, they'll stay idiots.
Titles mean nothing. The only thing you need is the topic ID, which a merge will break.
Notice the topic title does not affect them. Because the link uses the ID. Merging breaks that ID for the topic, resulting in a "no topic", which is worse for users.
It's only worse until people get accustomed to it. When they figure out what happened, they'll adjust. That goes for everything in life, not just forums.
Discussions are independent things, you cannot just merge 2 discussions together and hope that they work.
it would be a mess! The posts would be in a confusing order and depending on the topic could make absolutely no sense. What if the same person has posted in both topics and someone addresses them by name (without quoting) about one post, but it reads as if they're replying to the other post?
Merging is not a good solution for 99% of situations and is fraught with flaws.
It will be confusing at first, but it's hardly as big an issue as you make it out to be. People would pick up the conversation and start quoting who they're replying to after the merge. It's not like we're merging two different topics together, it's the same topic being discussed in different threads.
Besides, if the discussion is so vastly different... then there was no reason to lock the thread in the first place... just move it to the right forum.
Anyone with half a brain cell could just look over their previous posts to find out where their posts have been moved to. People will eventually learn the system. You keep treating people like idiots, they'll stay idiots.
Yet we have people still use report instead of reply, do not know how to edit titles or posts, and a whole bunch of other things.
Not every knows this or can do it. And the error does not even hint at it being merged. This point is explained below.
It's only worse until people get accustomed to it. When they figure out what happened, they'll adjust. That goes for everything in life, not just forums.
It tells the user they cannot find it. Meaning the topic no longer exists. Unless you try to look for it, the error you get says it is gone. This is the same error you see when a topic is hidden as well. Considering the rarity of us merging something, the error will almost always mean the topic was hidden. This has become the meaning of it. Sticking a second reason with no way to tell aside from active searching does not make it adjustable.
Merging is a very dangerous tool. It may not seem like it, but it is quite easy to screw up and cause major issues with it. It is also irreversible and cannot be logged. Mods do not have access to this tool because of how breaking it can be. It may seem like a convenience to the users for it, but that means we have to allow mods access to it, and we try to limit destructive tools down to a minimum. If we gave them this tool, a new mod who decided to be rogue can easily reek destruction on the forum. Anything we let mods do can be reversed.
Apparently they have access, however my point still stands.
We do not like anything that removes the very existence of something. We do not like how IPB hard deletes things. Merging goes against that, so unless we have a very good reason, we do not use it.
Apparently they have access, however my point still stands.
A note that while we had/have access, we were HIGHLY discouraged from using it for the exact reasons that citric stated above.
Of the thousands of reports I dealt with, I used the merge tool maybe twice, once on request from an admin, and once for a very specific thread.
It makes a mess, the thread gets disorganized, and then you get 2 pages of off-topic "what the heck happened here? did mods merge two topics" because no one can keep up with the conversation when it gets all disorganized like that.
As a member of staff that has actually tried using your suggestion by merging similar threads in the past (Around 2011-2012 sometime.) in a different section I can confirm every one of my colleagues issues with merging threads. People PM'ed asking where their threads had gone, how to get them back, why they were deleted and so on. And with how our procedures work I was lucky enough to know the answers to those inquires as I was the only one involved. I dread to think what would happen if there was multiple mods involved. The flow of information of what would happen would be a nightmare. So no, such liberal use of an overall dodgy and temperamental tool is nothing I recommend using. Even with extreme caution.
I know that each section has different moderators. Just move the thread to the correct forum and leave it in the moderation queue with a note to merge it with whatever topic it belongs with.
It does not properly handle links and it would break them from the merged topic, so instead of still seeing your topic, you get an error.
From what I have seen, there is rarely a time where it is worth it to actually merge them. In almost every case locking is the more acceptable and best approach.
Locking also lets us leave messages saying something exists.
While I agree that in most cases, a single post or two could be locked without any harm. Discussions like this :
http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1966641-villagers-over-spawning-after-tu12/ , should have been moved and merged. There was an active discussion going on and the response needed to be PM'd to me... but the response could have also helped numerous others better understand the issues... in both this thread as well as the original thread.
Such cases are so rare that they often aren't noticed. If the topic was really interesting you can always contact the forum administartion [Here]
Titles mean nothing. The only thing you need is the topic ID, which a merge will break.
www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1967136-
www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1967136-this-is-your-topic
www.minecraftforum.net/topic/1967136--bob-says-hi
Notice the topic title does not affect them. Because the link uses the ID. Merging breaks that ID for the topic, resulting in a "no topic", which is worse for users.
For example, imagine the following scenario:
Topic #123 posted at 00:00
Person replies at 00:10
Person replies at 00:20
Person replies at 00:30
Person replies at 00:40
Person replies at 00:50
Person replies at 01:00
Topic #124 posted at 00:30
Person replies at 00:35
Person replies at 00:38
Person replies at 00:41
Person replies at 01:20
A moderator decides these topics are about the same subject and should be merged.
We now have 1 topic containing the posts from both #123 and #124. This topic looks like follows (bold posts are from topic #124, normal posts are from topic #123)
Topic #123 posted at 00:00
Person replies at 00:10
Person replies at 00:20
Person replies at 00:30
Topic #124 posted at 00:30
Person replies at 00:35
Person replies at 00:38
Person replies at 00:40
Person replies at 00:41
Person replies at 00:50
Person replies at 01:00
Person replies at 01:20
it would be a mess! The posts would be in a confusing order and depending on the topic could make absolutely no sense. What if the same person has posted in both topics and someone addresses them by name (without quoting) about one post, but it reads as if they're replying to the other post?
Merging is not a good solution for 99% of situations and is fraught with flaws.
It's only worse until people get accustomed to it. When they figure out what happened, they'll adjust. That goes for everything in life, not just forums.
It will be confusing at first, but it's hardly as big an issue as you make it out to be. People would pick up the conversation and start quoting who they're replying to after the merge. It's not like we're merging two different topics together, it's the same topic being discussed in different threads.
Besides, if the discussion is so vastly different... then there was no reason to lock the thread in the first place... just move it to the right forum.
Yet we have people still use report instead of reply, do not know how to edit titles or posts, and a whole bunch of other things.
Not every knows this or can do it. And the error does not even hint at it being merged. This point is explained below.
It tells the user they cannot find it. Meaning the topic no longer exists. Unless you try to look for it, the error you get says it is gone. This is the same error you see when a topic is hidden as well. Considering the rarity of us merging something, the error will almost always mean the topic was hidden. This has become the meaning of it. Sticking a second reason with no way to tell aside from active searching does not make it adjustable.
Mods do not have access to this tool because of how breaking it can be. It may seem like a convenience to the users for it, but that means we have to allow mods access to it, and we try to limit destructive tools down to a minimum. If we gave them this tool, a new mod who decided to be rogue can easily reek destruction on the forum. Anything we let mods do can be reversed.Apparently they have access, however my point still stands.
We do not like anything that removes the very existence of something. We do not like how IPB hard deletes things. Merging goes against that, so unless we have a very good reason, we do not use it.
Of the thousands of reports I dealt with, I used the merge tool maybe twice, once on request from an admin, and once for a very specific thread.
It makes a mess, the thread gets disorganized, and then you get 2 pages of off-topic "what the heck happened here? did mods merge two topics" because no one can keep up with the conversation when it gets all disorganized like that.
Venit, quessit, induravit.
Merging a large discussion into another large discussion could lead to trouble as citric has said.